[juantoo3]

I saw these....and passed at the time. Not like I don't have enough cats to chase.

The question I have, is Greenbriar the maker...or the distributor? Sometimes models get lumped under the distributor because that's the only name on the package...Ja-Ru or MarzKarz for example, both of which marketed known Summer castings.

I can't see enough of these to tell, and when it comes to the cheapies I get lost quickly, but my best guess is these are likely from one of the budget line makers out there now like Kaixin or Pioneer.

 

[juantoo3]

Both Kaixin and Pioneer are quintessential "no name / generic" made in China cheapies. I know enough about either to get in trouble.


I found this multicar set in Tuesday Morning a couple months back, labelled Brooklyn Lollipops. I was informed these are Kaixin. Someone else showed up with a three or four pack of some of these same models - color, wheels, tampos - under yet a different name that escapes me at this moment. Out of the package I doubt a person could tell them apart.

That is the way it is commercially with the cheapie makers, they are meant to shut a kid up for an afternoon and get tossed when it gets stepped on or left on the living room carpet or disappears into the sandbox under the shade tree. They aren't meant to be kept or collected. (There are other factors at play too, but that is the dominant part of the story)

 

[juantoo3]

A quick look at the Summer database shows quite a few 9000 series Summer models. Odd, because I haven't seen anything clearly attributable to Summer for a good while now, probably close to ten years. In that time an upstart has come along that makes me think they might be peripherally associated with Summer, a new outfit called Suntoys.


Suntoys sometimes puts their name, sometimes not (Summer did the same), and it looks like Suntoys also used a 9000 series numbering system for their models...

The construction doesn't appear to be the same as yours though, in particular the "tab" suspension.

Maybe I should have paid better attention to these, but like I said I have enough cats to chase. Greenbriar would be a newcomer, if it turns out to be correct.

 

[juantoo3]

These are Suntoys (& I believe Suntoys was/is? connected to Summer).
I have been collecting Summer for a very long time & have an extensive list of what I have up until 2002 (then a few bits added later up to 2014). ... :roll:

Very good! I just posted the Summer list I have, you might want to review it and make any corrections. I had to rely heavily on the contributions of others for that list.

 

[juantoo3]

Do you have a Suntoys casting list?

I do not, hadn't gotten that far and wasn't sure if there was a connection to Summer. But I keep bumping into hints and allegations that make me lean in that direction...

 

[juantoo3]

I also noticed that at least two castingsin in the Lollipops multipack that @juantoo3 shows both have the same front end tab design as the Greenbrier packaged ones do.

That isn't particularly surprising, it is a construction method that requires spinning fewer posts...hook one end and spin one post and on down the line it goes to the next process. (Hot Wheels even tried it for a time, there is a burgundy Nomad from the mid-1990's that can be found with two posts and hook/post base variants.)

 

[juantoo3]

So I am leaning towards Suntoys as the maker and not Summer. It also fits better to the information from Kimmo, Dave and Marks small diecast book about Suntoys.

With the added information I would lean that way as well.

Since juantoo3 already has both Greenbrier, Summer and Suntoys each listed as individual entries in his posted small scale master listings. How is it that you would update the listings - in this case -as to 'maker' 'factory' and 'trade' names you have mentioned elsewhere?

It is possible the name Greenbriar came up before. I did not vet every name on that list, the names were provided by a long list of individuals...one could say Eric "tricked" us into a game and we all tried to outdo each other coming up with obscure names, but we did have to supply images to support those claims. Names on the base were acceptable, so my guess is someone not unlike yourself showed a model with Greenbriar on the base...which got it added to the list. As I pointed to with Ja-Ru and MarzKarz, both of which are well known and understood examples of distributors being mistaken for makers, it does happen, particularly with the obscure cheapie brands that get marketed in a long list of trade names. I think the work of Kimmo, Dave and Mark is very thorough up to the point they published, but it has been about 15 years since then and nobody I know of has kept the detailed tracing of every one of these obscure (no-name, generic) Chinese makers. I have peripheral interest, but most of my focus has been on vintage stuff (so I've been wrapped up the past few years in Hubley, Budgie, Benbros, Konami and pre-production stuff).

To answer your question directly, if we can presume at this point these are Suntoys models, and if I can presume Suntoys has taken over the Summer production facility, then Suntoys would be the factory and likely also the maker. Greenbriar would be the distributor in any case, and likely contracted Suntoys to produce the models wholesale which Greenbriar then wholesaled to (in this case) Dollar Tree for retail sale. That would be my best guess, but there are variables along the supply chain that can affect the answer. If we can determine that these "Greenbriar" models are the same or substantially similar (possible minor modifications) to known Suntoys castings, then I would be comfortable calling them Suntoys and that is how I would categorize them. Your mileage may vary... Typically the trade name is on the front of the packaging...apart from the number 3 on yours and the word "pack" and the French equivalent, I don't really see any other distinguishing trade dress across the packages. In that case I would look on the back to see if there were any information, but so many of these are blank, and I am presuming yours are too. That leaves little to go on, but Greenbriar would potentially be the trade name as well, or "3" or "3 pack" if it weren't that the cars are packaged 3 to a pack. The cheaper the generics get, the less information to go on. It has been suggested on more than one occasion this might be to skirt licensing requirements...can't enforce infringement if you can't trace who actually made them...

I am still hesitant about the NSX - as it does not appear as a previous Suntoy casting (or Summer). And it is the one embossed with the Greenbrier name.

It really is not at all unusual. If, by the company it keeps (packaged in the same pack) it is with Suntoys models (I'm still leaving a sliver of doubt), I would be inclined to think it is a Suntoys model, in spite of what is on the base. Bases get modified routinely. Take a look at the connection between Yatming and Imperial or Road Champs. Granted, there it was paper labels covering the source...in this case Yatming...but once out of the package and little fingers picking off the label there is nothing to distinguish how the car was released to market. That would be a fair argument. But what of other times when models were / are contracted and the base *is* changed? Can't really point to Ertl-RC-JL because that wasn't contracting, but I can point to High Speed-Grell-Malibu International and likely Schuco. High Speed models sold as Grell had the Grell company logo on the base. Likewise with Malibu International...and I would not be the least surprised if the same is true with the Schuco issues of High Speed models. So changing the base is not unheard of, and with a bit of looking around I am sure I can come up with more examples. Bases get changed all the time, and is probably one of the easiest (certainly most common) modifications made to tools. So having the Greenbriar name on the base is good, certainly something if nothing else is available, but not an absolute identifier...as we see once again with Imperial and Road Champs.

 

[juantoo3]

About a year and a half, maybe 2 years ago, a Roses store opened here locally. I found these inside:

To date no one has been able to identify them. I don't have a clue. Yet again...no-name, generic, "made in China" playthings meant to be tossed.

 

[juantoo3]

I dont know about the ones in your multipack, but as shown above the Greenbrier ones I have are tabbed at both ends.

Then it appears I misunderstood. You were speaking of the suspension tabs, which are a common method of giving a little spring among the cheapie models...but also makes them very delicate and easily broken.

 

[juantoo3]

This is the card back from 2015. The one I just purchased is essentially the same.

[/url]2017 Greenbrier Diecast 3 Pack by Milton Fox, on Flickr[/IMG]

I think we have our answer...."Imported by" Greenbriar.

 

[juantoo3]

I have not vetted many of the casting names that Eric provided or that Sam provided either. That is the entire point of ths overall endeavor. But, unlike people like yourself, I am not as skeptical as to what other people like me provide. If a mistake is made. Then a mistake is made. Those can be corrected or accounted for. It is when someone keeps posting the same disinformation about the same or mulitiple castings that they begin to discredit themselves. That takes care of itself over time.

Which leaves us with the 'distributor' issue - does that need to be considered or ignored in the master listings?

:lurk05:

Disinformation? Like people who insist a Hot Wheel was made in 1969 when it was actually made last year? Because "it says so right there on the base, see?"

Difference with the information I provide is that I try to show examples to support what I am trying to say. I may sometimes be misunderstood, and I don't get everything always, and if I'm guessing I say I'm guessing. BIG difference than with some people.

Ignoring or not the distributor issue is a matter of choice. I choose to put the distributor *under* the maker, not as a brand unto itself, because they are not the maker. But that is my choice.

So, a question for you would be who makes, distributes or otherwise "controls" 1988 castings? A bit of a trick question, because to this point nobody knows, and the only common feature between the dozen or so castings is "1988" on the license plate...so that is what collectors use to ID these models. They could have been made by any of a number of makers, and distributed through any number of distribution chains, collectors don't have access to that information...so they've settled on 1988 to distinguish from other models.

There is a late run of models sold as Imperial (also a distributor, but they did sell under their own name) and as Buddy L (after Imperial bought the rights to that name) sometime mid-late 1990s. Nobody knows who the actual maker is (I suspect High Speed but have been unable to connect the dots). So even though we know, for fact, Imperial is a toy distributor (everything from paddle balls to marbles to inexpensive dolls), we have no choice left but to attribute these nice looking models to Imperial. It is about what the community settles on.


I have no doubt ten years from now, when this conversation is long forgotten, there will be those who having just found a copy of your NSX, that will call it Greenbriar, and others will agree, because they will have little other reference unless we can somehow clarify it now. Easier said than done.

 

[juantoo3]

And the answer would be?

Seriously? It means Greenbriar is a distributor. If you notice, there is a different distributor for Canada. Greenbriar is not the maker.

 

[juantoo3]

Again no, end tabs are end tabs - not axle tabs.

So if there is no rivet post and the body is held to the chassis with tabs, that is not unheard of...Budgie were made that way sometimes in the 1950s and 60s. So it would be another cost cutting method to speed production.

 

[juantoo3]

Then it is also a possiblity that Greenbrier has taken over for Suntoys. Just like Suntoys did for some of the Summer castings.

So the answer would be to leave Greenbrier as a new 'maker". Show them linked to Suntoys which is linked back to Summer.

Possible but not likely, and since we now have pictorial evidence that points to Greenbriar being a distributor, then I would say REALLY not likely. Distributors are not factories, each serves a very different purpose in the supply chain.

 

[juantoo3]

Yes seriously in regards to the master list. Am I not undestanding you to recommend Greenbrier be listed as a distributor. And when we can somehow confirm who actually makes them for them to distribute that informatoin can also be confirmed. Right now it would be Suntoys as the most likely maker.

Correct. That is how I would view it. That is not to say it is the only way, but by and large on the things I was able to follow up on, that is how I listed things. Clearly I've learned more about Greenbriar in this conversation than I had when it was entered on my list. I am still flexible on Suntoys, I would still leave a degree of doubt until we can confirm that part, but I think it is pretty clear Greenbriar is not a maker.

 

[juantoo3]

Like with Mattel who makes, markets, and distributes Hot Wheels and Matchbox.

I was waiting for you to get there.

Mattel is easy, if they don't have their own factory(s), then they are definitely big enough around the world to do their own distributing under their own name. They are not reliant on a third party for distribution...you order from Mattel and take possession of goods by the case. We know Mattel is the designer, if not maker outright then they are the contractor that orders production, and they receive and distribute, and their products are sold under their controlled trade names and trade dress. Easy peesy.


Let's make it a little more complicated. Johnny Lightning...as it is now under Round 2. TOMY still holds control of the physical tooling that they acquired when they bought Learning Curve, which included Ertl, Racing Champions and Johnny Lightning. Since TOMY also hold Tomica, a lot of the diecast was, to be polite, redundant. There were other "brands" in the mix as well, not important to collectors of diecast but certainly important to TOMY, the Thomas Train franchise in particular. From any business 101 text a person can find that one way to eliminate competition is to buy them out and close them down. And that was a concern among fans of JL when TOMY bought, and a few years later when things didn't go as TOMY had hoped, they did indeed close JL. After which, Tom Lowe was able to purchase the rights from TOMY to continue using the models and tools his former company Playing Mantis created, as well as some of the RC and Ertl tools, and the rights to use JL and RC trade names but not Ertl - TOMY has kept the rights to Ertl and continues to use it to sell agricultural related diecast. This is why we were able to find mixes of Ertl, Tomica and JL models on the same shelves in Tractor Supply, Rural King and other ag related businesses that sold ag toys. Back to present, Tom Lowe and company design a model, send the specs (like the build sheet I showed today in the other thread) to the factory in China and contract how many and how they should be packaged, which when the contracted run is completed it is shipped to Round 2 (I think they are still outside of Chicago), and they distribute to their customers from there...I think. There are other possibilities, cases could be shipped directly to customers (someone the size of WalMart or when we had TrU before they closed, possibly Target). I have no doubt some companies like Round 2 might use a third party distributor, so it is not out of the question, but since Round 2 does maintain their own warehouse (PM Vault still sells NOS Johnnys on the 'bay), I would be inclined to think they do their own distributing.


Some of this is about who puts the upfront money to have the contracted run made. One way is to contact the maker, and buy whatever they have already designed so there is no custom work other than maybe packaging...and why you can find essentially the same model packaged and sold under different trade names (Maisto comes to mind here). Alternately one can contact the maker and custom order a specific model or models, with custom decorations, in the requested quantities, and have them shipped wherever you want. In either case, the distributor might be the one here who puts the money up front and receives the goods wholesale to sell wholesale to retailers to sell to the public. In our example here, it is very possible Greenbriar put up the money and contracted the run to be delivered to them for distribution, and clearly a portion or maybe the whole contracted run was sold to Dollar Tree distributors who sent the cases of product out to each of their stores for sale. How the Canadian distributor fits in isn't clear, they may be a subsidiary of Greenbriar, they may only be a limited partner with Greenbriar, they may have put up the money for the contracted run and Greenbriar is subordinate...we will never know. But they perform the same function in Canada, distributing to whatever company(s) it is they are dealing with to final sale to the consumer. Ja-Ru and MarzKarz filled the same role of distributor for Summer products years ago, and Imperial is still in business today and I know they were around in the 1970s.

 

[juantoo3]

Just like Jazz, anything is possible.