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I'm not sure all of those are light sources. But clearly, some of them are. Many of those look like little "rivet heads."

I think I'm going to mentally treat the little lights to either side of the scanner port as being the source for the "NCC banner" illumination...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I like that thinking.

Because according to these shots from ST III, those "slot" lights don't seem to light the registry:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7700760882/in/photostream/lightbox/


Myself, I like how they used practical sources for NX-01 and "Trek Eleven". I sort of think of those two "shutters" at the very front of B/C (which happen to have 4 of those 'shrooms...) as the intended source, even though they're never shown lighted.

We all know they cheated for the lights anyway, so we're faced with a near-impossible task to replicate it as part of the ship (without cheating...!)
 

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I just had to kick myself...

I was thinking how I commented on the B&W photo being "indistinct."

There was a time when a shot like that would be like gold to a modeler!
 

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Wow, I love that pics like this are showing up. Oh, to have had them way back in the day.

May I posit another possibility?

IIRC the Refit was made from fiberglass shells fitted over a frame that also supported the internal lights, and the attachment points for the support that held it during filming, correct?

Might these mushrooms be some form of cover for the various screws that may have held the shell to the frame? Something that was just *dot* put over the holes/heads? Time and handling might/would knock them off because nobody felt a need to replace them.

Now, see, I don't KNOW that the shell is held to the frame by screws, but I'm pretty sure you don't glue something shut when you may need to access the interior to change out lights, or fix wiring.

As for what they COULD be, I'm OK thinking of them potentially being spotlights placed to light specific areas of the hull, as the spot that lit the elevating platform when Kirk et al. embarked on their stroll to visit V'GER in person.

Say, are there 'shrooms on the Engineering hull around the plate that's removed for the side mount? Or did they just have a plug on the inside of the hull exterior that friction fit into the mount to hold it in place?
 

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Many of the visible "mushrooms" on these models are screw heads. They use tiny allen screws with security heads for holding many details in place, but allowing access to the interior components.

The refit saucer was made of vacuformed ABS (yes, that same hated material that causes styrene cement-only modelers to shriek in terror).
 

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Never noticed the two litle light spots between the "foold lights". But I agree most of the "mushrooms" are crews to hold stuff in place or to give acces to the inner workings.

As for the STII picuters. ILM wanted to symbolize "Elvis is in da house" when the bridge lights come on, tahts why there is no flood on the registry although it should.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Given the size of the bridge components (between 2 and 3 times the size of the 1/350 kit, very roughly about 2.5x) I don't read these as screws. They've really got that heat-mushroomed lens look, and some do appear lighted.
 

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Given the size of the bridge components (between 2 and 3 times the size of the 1/350 kit, very roughly about 2.5x) I don't read these as screws. They've really got that heat-mushroomed lens look, and some do appear lighted.
I think it's very likely that we're seeing a variety of details, making up a variety of functions, and made in a variety of ways.

It's certainly possible that some are, as you say, actually "spread" optical fiber ends. And it's CERTAIN that some are sources of light, no doubt. But we don't know if these are fibers, or are actually little glass beads used as lenses, or... well, ANYTHING, really.

It's also very, very possible that some of these are, as suggested, either exposed screw heads, or more likely, some sort of easily removable "cap" on top of a screwhead (think of the little plastic caps used in some "pressboard" type furniture to cover exposed screw heads, for example, or the chromed caps used in some screw-mounted mirrors, just for a couple of examples)

I actually am cynical that this would be "mushroomed optical fiber," mainly because the light-carrying capacity of such a fiber, at least as available in 1979, would be so low that it would be essentially useless for "filming" purposes. It seems more likely that this might be a bit of polycarbonate rod or something a bit more robust and "capable."

Still, it's ALL supposition right now, isn't it?
 

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I like that thinking.

Because according to these shots from ST III, those "slot" lights don't seem to light the registry:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7700760882/in/photostream/lightbox/


Myself, I like how they used practical sources for NX-01 and "Trek Eleven". I sort of think of those two "shutters" at the very front of B/C (which happen to have 4 of those 'shrooms...) as the intended source, even though they're never shown lighted.

We all know they cheated for the lights anyway, so we're faced with a near-impossible task to replicate it as part of the ship (without cheating...!)
But clearly, in ST:TMP, the banner illumination came on at the same instant as the 'scanner' lights.
Since there are three lights around the bridge and three areas of illumination, I'd say there meant for the banners.
 

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But clearly, in ST:TMP, the banner illumination came on at the same instant as the 'scanner' lights.
Since there are three lights around the bridge and three areas of illumination, I'd say there meant for the banners.
Well, from a practical standpoint, this makes very little sense... those are not spotlights, they're slots with an array of hardware inside. It's pretty well-established that they're scanner arrays.

So, either (1) the scanner arrays have a non-scanner device in the same space (possible, but very poor design practice!), or (2) the "banner illumination" is just a happy side-effect of the scanner platform... or (3) the scanner platforms are not the source of the banner illumination at all.

The image shown above, showing the scanner ports lighting up without illuminating the banner, does tend to "disprove" the idea that these are where the banner illumination comes from. (Though, of course, we all know that the practical illumination was provided by external sources, and in the case of TMP, dental mirrors, to achieve the desired lighting effects... and we COULD treat the ST-III shot shown above as a special-effects error, I suppose).

It just makes very little practical sense to me for a HUGE opening like that, with a variety of visible devices inside, and identified, from the time of ST-TMP, as being sensor/scanner ports, would instead just be a billboard illumination system. Especially since very small lamps can provide the sort of illumination we seen on the hull of the Enterprise, even today.

If we treat the two "lighted dots" seen in these images as, in scale, about 1 foot diameter spotlight lenses.. the effect seen in ST-TMP makes perfect sense. The more "trimmed outline" lighted areas seen in ST-TWOK also make sense, as you could do this simply by applying a mask to the lamp lenses (think "batsignal" in reverse).

I'm not sure I recall ever seeing all three areas, adjacent to the three sensor ports on the upper p-hull, illuminated. But if they were... they'd need to be, not at 90 degree separations, but rather about 75 degree separations. Anyone have a screen-cap showing that sort of three-lobed, 75-degree-or-so-separation, "three-leaf clover" effect on top of the hull?

My memory isn't perfect... and it's not getting better with age!... but I sure don't recall seeing that. And if the only place it happened is under Bran Ferren's work... I'll refuse to count that anyway!
 

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But clearly, in ST:TMP, the banner illumination came on at the same instant as the 'scanner' lights.
Since there are three lights around the bridge and three areas of illumination, I'd say there meant for the banners.
I agree, the three slot lights below the bridge were very well established in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" as being the source of illumination for the registry mark on the upper side of the hull just as the four opening on the underside illuminated that part of the hull. When the lights came on, the hull was bathed in pools of light, that is the impression they wanted the viewer to have and that is the impression the viewers got. Not sure what was written in the fan community that would contradict this, it still does not alter the original intent of the lights seen on film.

It always did bug me why the spotlights failed to appear on the hull in ST: III, but I write that off to a rushed filming schedule that led to mistakes in production. If I am not mistaken, in all the films after the first, the warp engines are lit in scenes where the ship is on impulse engines and the sensor dish is always blue. The ship was designed and wired to have the sensor dish orange when on impulse and blue when it was at warp, likewise, the warp engines were to be dark when the impulse engines were lit. They were even color coordinated the engines with the sensor dish, orange impulse engine lights and blue warp engine lights. These changed to a more red and purple look in later films.

I really only refer to ST:TMP for how the Enterprise looked as it was the most thoughtout as far as filming goes. :thumbsup:
 

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Well, from a practical standpoint, this makes very little sense... those are not spotlights, they're slots with an array of hardware inside. It's pretty well-established that they're scanner arrays.
Really? So be so kind to name the canon source that says those light panels on the Refit bridge rim and lower sensor dome are "scanners" (remember, canon in Star Trek is only what was seen and said in the movies / TV series). AFIK those light panels have always been identified as the sources of the Refit spotlights with the prominent source beeing TMP when the spot lights come on at the dry dock "power up" sequence. The bridge light coming on with no spot at the top registry in ST3 was to say "Kirk and Crew have arrived at the ships bridge" after the Mr Adventure scene.

If I am not mistaken, in all the films after the first, the warp engines are lit in scenes where the ship is on impulse engines and the sensor dish is always blue.
Happened in TMP too. Just after the wormhole incident and after Spock arrived the ship passes by at presumably impulse, Kirk makes a log report and states the warp engines are being repaired, yet the nacelles inner warp grills are glowing blue and the dish is blue as well. But to give the makers credit: they just reused this shot that was obviously as a "warp flyby" for use after the frist successful warp flight. It's the same shot, you can tell by the flicker of the port pylons flood light. Look out for it in both sequences and you'll see.
 

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Really? So be so kind to name the canon source that says those light panels on the Refit bridge rim and lower sensor dome are "scanners" (remember, canon in Star Trek is only what was seen and said in the movies / TV series). AFIK those light panels have always been identified as the sources of the Refit spotlights with the prominent source beeing TMP when the spot lights come on at the dry dock "power up" sequence. The bridge light coming on with no spot at the top registry in ST3 was to say "Kirk and Crew have arrived at the ships bridge" after the Mr Adventure scene.



Happened in TMP too. Just after the wormhole incident and after Spock arrived the ship passes by at presumably impulse, Kirk makes a log report and states the warp engines are being repaired, yet the nacelles inner warp grills are glowing blue and the dish is blue as well. But to give the makers credit: they just reused this shot that was obviously as a "warp flyby" for use after the frist successful warp flight. It's the same shot, you can tell by the flicker of the port pylons flood light. Look out for it in both sequences and you'll see.
Thank you for the correction. I will watch for that shot the next time it is on. :thumbsup:
 

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Really? So be so kind to name the canon source that says those light panels on the Refit bridge rim and lower sensor dome are "scanners" (remember, canon in Star Trek is only what was seen and said in the movies / TV series).
Well, if you want to go with that definition... be so kind as to name the "canon" source in the movies which makes it clear that the bridge is in that dome, or that the things above and behind the ship are the warp engines, or that the thing at the front of the secondary hull is a sensor/deflector device.

I, personally, will accept the "off-screen" information given by Lee Cole, David Kimble, and Andrew Probert, even if you don't.

And since none of this "really" exists... I guess neither one can be defined as 100% correct, huh?
AFIK those light panels have always been identified as the sources of the Refit spotlights with the prominent source beeing TMP when the spot lights come on at the dry dock "power up" sequence.
That two things happen at one time does not make them the same thing.

When you put the key into the ignition of your car, and turn it, a number of things happen all at once. Does that mean that they're all the same thing?

Yes, we see individual systems turning on all across the ship's exterior, in a sequence... but is that intended to show us things happening in that sequence, or perhaps might that not be a series of events which "really" happened all at once, but could not effectively be shown to us "all at once?"

I see no conclusive indication that the HUGE SLOTS exist for the sole purpose of being really large, awkward, inefficient light sources. Especially given that, even today, our technology is far, far more advanced than that.

I said, earlier, that it's POSSIBLE (though it would seem like poor design practice) that the lamps might be installed among the scanner equipment in those arrays. You ignore that, of course, and insist that the slots must be ONLY LIGHT SOURCES.

In other words, you're taking a very aggressive tone... saying that you, and only you, must be 100% right. I'm sorry, but that's just unjustifiable.
The bridge light coming on with no spot at the top registry in ST3 was to say "Kirk and Crew have arrived at the ships bridge" after the Mr Adventure scene.
But, by your own claim, "if it's seen on-screen, it's canon." So... by your own argument, this is NOT the source of the "banner lighting." You can't use an argument at one moment, then abandon it at the next, out of pure convenience.
Happened in TMP too. Just after the wormhole incident and after Spock arrived the ship passes by at presumably impulse, Kirk makes a log report and states the warp engines are being repaired, yet the nacelles inner warp grills are glowing blue and the dish is blue as well. But to give the makers credit: they just reused this shot that was obviously as a "warp flyby" for use after the frist successful warp flight. It's the same shot, you can tell by the flicker of the port pylons flood light. Look out for it in both sequences and you'll see.
I'm not convinced that this is the same shot. While it's similar, to be sure, I don't see the identicalness you do, and I believe I see some differences.

Still, it hardly matters.

Look... you can believe whatever you want to believe, and since there is no "real" Enterprise, you can treat those roughly fifteen foot by three foot openings as being very, very crude illumination sources, rather than as anything else.

What we DO know is this:
1) In the model, they did not actually produce a "flood light effect." The effects seen were produced by external light sources.
2) As seen on-screen, these can be illuminated without the "banner lighting" being present.
3) The "banner illumination" is AHEAD. There is not an identical patch offset at the +/- 75-degree locations aligned with the other two slots.
4) Those who designed and defined the ship, for TMP, called those slots sensor/scanner ports (even if this was never stated in on-screen dialog).

So... I have never accepted those as the source of the illumination.

Your mileage may vary. And that's OK, because it's a MAKE BELIEVE SHIP, after all.:wave:
 
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