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Discussion Starter #1
This was posted on another site. I just wanted to make sure everyone got a chance to read it.

Questions have been coming to me in regards of the upcoming 2004 ROAR Paved Oval Nats relating to 19-turn limited modified motors. This was posted back in January and nothign has changed accept with the use P94's...they were used at the carpet nats since a rule clarification was posted.


I will have formal 19-turn rule clarification posted by the end of the week on the ROAR site and Tri-Clone sites and where ever I can get it out.

Any questions....holler.....I am sure I'll hear it. Kenny B




 

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clear as milk!
 

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No to come across in a bad way but if there is some sort of clarification that needs to be made it needs to be before Friday. Most everyone I know have what they need or have it ordered for the Nats. 19 turn, 19 wire, 36 degree timing and mod can is about all the book says.
 

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Oh boy... Just show up with one of everything and be willing and ready to change brush hoods if nessasary and you'll be fine. :)
 

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Dont be surprised on the day of the race....a rule change is made...At the carpet nationals....the morning of..we were told p-94 brushes would be allowed..alot of us
were unprepared....
 

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Discussion Starter #8
This is what the 19t rules will be for the up coming nats at the Tri-clone

-Monti-



ROAR Oval Committee Memo To: ROAR 19-Turn Modified Motor Builders (Oval Motors) Mid-West Tri-Clone (Host 2004 ROAR Paved Oval Nationals) ROAR Membership From: ROAR Oval Committee CC: Files Date: July 28, 2004 Re: 19T Modified Class Rule Clarifications – Oval Classes Attached for your reference and implementation, are 19T Modified Class Rule Clarifications that will be enforced immediately and in effect for the 2004 ROAR Paved Oval Nationals hosted by the Mid-West Tri-Clone. These clarifications replace Rules 5-65 through 5-68 of the 2004 ROAR Rule Book. Rules as printed in the 2004 rulebook were intended as an enhancement to the 2003 19T Modified Class Rule Clarifications not a replacement. Prior to the 2004 ROAR Carpet Oval Nationals and immediately after publication, there were several Internet postings trying to provide clarification as to the motor specifications as shown herein. As a result, the P-94 brush was allowed at the event since complete clarification was not provided nor published on the ROAR website, Rev-Up, letter, or available through the host track. To maintain consistency with the intent of the class, as well as substantial agreement in specifications with other national R/C organizations, only standup brushes (3.75 mmx 5 mm) brushes will be allowed. If you have any questions, or wish further clarifications, please contact Kenny Bergschultz at [email protected] or at (920) 918-3299 (cell). Thank you for your time and continued support of ROAR.

19T Modified Class Rule Clarifications Effective July 28, 2004 ***The following clarifications and specifications supercede those published in the ROAR 2004 Rule book or those previously applied at past ROAR oval events, carpet or paved. Armatures All armatures shall be based upon ROAR approved modified motor armatures as shown on the ROAR website under Products. Armatures: 3 pole armatures only with a minimum stack length for Epic of 21.3 mm; Yokomo 21.3 mm; Top Core 21.5 mm; Vortex 21.5 mm with a minimum stack diameter of 22.9 mm. Full stack armatures only, no split rotors or tri- rotors permitted. Minimum web thickness shall be 0.170 inches (4.33 mm) including manufacturing applied epoxies to secure stack wafers. No removal of stack wafers (i.e. short stacking allowed). Armature shaft diameter will be 0.125in. All 19T armatures will be wound with the Mabuchi wrap, with round 19AWG wire with a maximum size of 0.0355 inches (0.902mm) bare. A minimum of 19 continuous turns per pole. No error factor in the number of winds per pole/stack will be allowed. Wire length will be a minimum of 134 inches total, or 44.60 inches unwound per pole. No shorting of any wind or winds allowed. Armatures may be hand or machine wound, and must bear a mark or tab identifying the armature and winder. Example: NAME 19X1, NAME 19T. Marks may include etching or engraving on the armature stacks, and/or tags epoxied between the stack spacing and must be permanent, as to see any tampering. If it is found that these markings/tabs/tags are not legible, or tampered with, the armatures may be deemed illegal. Unmarked arms will be deemed illegal and may result in forfeiture of main or qualifier. Commutator slots must be aligned to neutral with the center of the individual poles/segments. No tolerance allowed on commutator timing. Skewed commutator segments are not legal Full stack armatures made only of magnetizable material. No modifications to the stacks will be allowed other than the normal drill balance holes. Any modifications to the original OEM Importer/Manufacturer configurations, including but not limited to, excessive drill holes/milling/turning to lighten and/or enhance the performance from that of the full stack will not be allowed. No linear separations of the stack segments will be allowed. No split or tri-rotors will be allowed. Vertical slots will not be allowed on any armature manufactured by the original OEM Importer after January 1, 2002. Vertical slots on all armatures manufactured prior to January 1, 2002 will not be modified from the original configuration as manufactured by the original OEM Importer. At no time will any material be removed from the armature, whether hidden or visible, except those from normal balance holes as specified here within. No skewed armature laminations allowed. Balancing may be done by either epoxy and/or drill balancing. Drill marks shall not exceed two holes per pole with a No. 1 or No. 2 combination drill/countersink. Holes may not be any larger 4.76 mm (0.1875 inches) in diameter and may not exceed 6.35 mm (0.250 inches) in depth. Any large drill holes of the same size, on all three stacks, shall be suspect to excessive drilling for the purpose of lightening and/or enhancing the performance. Any arm to be found in blatant violation of these specifications will result in the OEM Importer/Manufacturer/Builder to be banned from any ROAR approval product for a period of one year. This shall include, but not be limited to, smaller wire gauge and less wraps than specified. ROAR will annually re-evaluate the above specifications based upon quality of race competition, present manufacturing processes and materials, changes in technology, and track performance.

Cans and Endbells Only ROAR approved modified motor cans with approved endbells may be used and meet these specs within. Approved products can be found on the ROAR website under Products. Can and Endbell: Can based on the 0.05 industry standards, maximum diameter of 36.05mm and a minimum diameter of 35.5 mm. Maximum length of 36 mm and a minimum length of 35.5 mm measured from mounting face to the open end of the can. Length from the mounting face to the furthest point of the mounted endbell shall be a maximum of 53.5 mm and a minimum of 52.2 mm. Motor mounting holes will be on 1-inch centers. The space between magnets will be centered at one set of the mounting holes that will be marked to indicate zero degrees (0) centerline. Can must bear the mark of the original OEM Importer/Manufacture. Magnets must be permanently affixed/epoxied to the can and not removable. Ceramic magnets only, no Rare Earth or Cobalt magnets permitted. Honing of the magnets or reforming the can will not be allowed. Two magnets or four magnets (quad or split magnets) are allowed. Two magnet cans shall not be cut or emulate split magnets. Quad or split magnets must be of equal size and glued into the can in such a way that they do not advance the magnetic timing of the motor. Motor will have adjustable timing. Timing rings shall not be drilled to allow increased timing other than those drill holes from the manufacturer. Timing for motors shall not exceed 36 degrees. Ball bearings are allowed. Brush hoods will be STANDUP (3.75 mm x 5mm) brushes only. Brush hoods may be changed from approved ROAR can/endbell combinations to allow for STANDUP brush hoods. "L" cut/timed brushes will not be allowed. Only 3.75 mm x 5 mm brushes and brush hoods will be used. Trimming/modifying or reducing the size of larger brushes to standup brush size is not allowed. Slotting and/or elongating the brush hoods mounting holes to cock/shift the location or change the alignment of the brush is prohibited. Endbell must be secured to the can with the screws. No gluing of endbell to can allowed. Endbell must bear the mark of the original OEM Importer. Final Assembly Swapping of components from one Manufacturer to another is prohibited. All 19T motor combinations (armature/can/endbells) shall be manufacturer specific (i.e. Epic/Epic/Epic, Yokomo/Yokomo/Yokomo, etc.) Pricing Suggested retail price for a complete motor shall not exceed $65. Armature may not exceed a suggest
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So anyone that is coming to the nats or knows of someone coming to that nats please pass this info on.

-Monti-
 

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Thanks Monti for getting it out. These rules are in effect immediately and bring ROAR...ARCOR....and NORRCA closer on rules. I believe the only difference is ROAR allows quad cans.

Kenny B
 

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And that would be our ROAR costing its 19turn racers more Money ....I guess that is why there were 112 entries at the ARCOR Firecracker Spec Nats at BMS this year ... And they have 80 entries or so for a National event ....There Isnt a Oval Committee to change the rule a week before the nats ....Good Job ...Glad I cancelled my plans to attend ...Have fun ...Jeff Humpty Helms ....
 

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Don't hate me but I have 2 questions. What is the Mabuchi wrap? I have ARCOR legal motors and the wire loops around the tap where as a stock motor just goes over the tap and to the next pole. Are both types legal?

Also, I am I reading this correctly that I can drill the max allowable holes on the arm and epoxy balance it?

Thanks
 

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Well,being the only west coast driver coming to this race,we have allready sent paid entries in,paid for flight,rental car,etc..... I'm still coming but not happy,not for me but the screw job that has been done to twoo weeks before a national event to some of my friends in the industry..

Roar- What about the winders that have sent out motors allready,racers that have bought motors,hobby shops that have product on the wall?

Roar are you going to pony up the lost revenue for these people? winders,racers ,hobby shop owners?

Bad call!!!!!!!!!

OH yeah what about the racers that have roar legal motors prior to this change?what about the clubs all around the country having to tell all there racers there motors are illegal?and have to purchase more motors,and or parts?

Roar ,please rethink this discision? it's not to late...yet....you guy's really don't need any more BS...
 

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Jeff, as posted these rules have been in effect all this year and further clarififcation was provided. I know you race ARCOR based motors which follow these alignments.

No screw job involved. Clarification of the rules as discussed. These are the same rules enforeced at the carpet nats earlier this year with the exception of maintaining the standup brushes. Sorry everyone...we can't please everyone, but these are the rules. The same for field for everyone.

Kenny B
 

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Sorry ROAR, I usually go with the flow and dont say anything because I am all for teching and being legal. BUT THIS IS A CROCK! Do you know how much money you have cost myself, all hobby shops, motor builders, and most of all the drivers signed up the this years nats? People have bought motors, brushes and etc to compete and then you pull this and everyone has to start over. :( WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cant believe this crap. Two darn weeks before what is supposed to be the "BIG" outdoor race of the year and the rules get tweaked this close to race time. Somebody needs to refund me, my customers and my motor builder for the money invested in all these motors and brushes that may not fit this sudden rule change. Sorry ROAR. I cant support you on this one. Im all for rules and the rules being enforced but not this close to a major race that people spend a lot of hard earned money on. :(

Just a suggestion but I would go back to what the book says for this race. It could hurt in the long run.

I just got my new book last week and didnt see any memo on motor rules of this nature.
 

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Like stated, its' an attempt to keep the field at the same level as it was intended and to avoid headaches at the track. We are not out to cost anybody money nor chase anyone away. These are the rules as posted. I would rather have time for everyone now to avoid the conflict we had carpet nats.

I realize your past support and understand your frustration. For as many as there are unsatisfied, there are the same very satisfied.

Kenny B
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hey guys I understad that Roar has some very vague rules before this but you have to give them credit for going forth and setting rules that would have us all in a disavetage if not set. Lets let this go as it may I have run the carpet nats and every race that had been run under ROAR and I see no problems with these rules. If you have a problem please explain your particular problem. The only difference between these rules and ARCOR are the allowance of 4 mag motors. I and most people fell that ARCOR have written the rules on 19t and that if ROAR is chooseing to go along with those rules then so be it.

Please someone explain why this rule package is wrong what makes it so horriable that someone should not race? Do you want to race against a motor winder that can short stack arms? or mill out arms? Or some one that can build motor better than what you can buy at any local hobby shop?

-Monti-
 

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I am going to restate what I said a page earlier as I know atleast 2 people that would know have seen my post. So here it is again:

Don't hate me but I have 2 questions. What is the Mabuchi wrap? I have ARCOR legal motors and the wire loops around the tap where as a stock motor it just goes over the tap and to the next pole. Are both types legal?

Also, am I reading this correctly that I can drill the max allowable holes on the arm and epoxy balance it?

Thanks
 

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First I'll say... I am not attending any national events anytime soon...

Second I'll say... that is a great improvement over the previously posted set of 19t oval motor rules... Quite well done I'd say... My only negitive comment about them is... It's about time.

I would also comment that Xpressman's questions are good ones, perticularly the question about drilling maximum holes and then epoxy ballancing... My reading of these rules would say that is legal... on the other hand, one might argue that that clearly was an attempt to gain advantage in some way... I don't know how you could ban doing both... I mean some motors come from the factory drill ballanced, where it would seem perfectly ligit for a competitor and/or motor tuner to do some final ballancing using a epoxy... Hence this really should be very clear what the bottom line is...

I still can't really fully tell what's a Mabuchi wind... and what's not...

Oh... I'd also ask... is there a minimum inductance value for a legal arm? and/or where is this spec?


Like I said before... this is a great improvement over the previous rules that were about as clear as mud and/or left things up to your imagination... Glad to see something was finnaly done to clear things up a bit.
 
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