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Discussion Starter #1
I'm sure there are some "experts" on here who can make some sense of this. I was somehow reminded recently of the two pink RLBB known to exist..the so-called holy grails (Is any term more overused in diecast collecting?) for redline collectors everywhere. And it occurred to me: How odd is it that there are two known in the WHOLE world in pink, and BOTH are nearly perfect. Consider the odds of this being reality. There is no reason to believe they were both stored in a safe from the beginning. No one considered them of value for at least 20 years after they were made. Almost ALL of these cars, including RLBB were at some point in the hands of children, and we know what children do with TOYS, right? They play with them, and they would at least have some wear. But the odds against only two existing and both being near perfect are astronomical. I'm open to anyone showing another example of this phenomenon. Is it just coincidence that they are super rare...and OH YEAH...the most sought-after redline color ever...and OH YEAH...they are near perfect. Baloney. Someone is pulling a fast one with those cars, and anyone who shells-out 50k ish for one of them is a fool. They can never truly be authenticated, and any serious collector should know that. Oh...I forgot, the cars just surfaced when the values for similar items had gone nuts...a further coincidence. The market for RLBBs and pink cars was sky high before these two examples appeared, which tells me someone who is very clever finally saw that it was worth the time and effort to make an excellent fake and make a lot of cash. Yes, I've heard the stories about the cars being linked to Mattel employees, blah blah. If I owned them, I'd probably pass along that story, too. Something to think about...if you're a thinking person.
 

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I agree, i've wondered about the condition of these cars as well, my childhood era hw's are barely recognizable as hw's, let alone a car..hammer..hehehe..hair spray and lighter..oh glorious childhood of destruction..i digress, you are right.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
right..

Why is it that there are no other instances in the hobby of this sort of coincidence? If someone found...say...two 442s in a color never seen before, and it happened now, after the market has been crazy for many years, AND both of the, lets say, yellow enamel 442s happened to be near perfect...cmon, no one would buy that for a second. Dollars to donuts, both of those pink RLBBs were at least PAINTED less than 20 years ago. As for the castings, I should hope enough people have seen them to know if they are legit, but when toys become THAT valuable, there are plenty of extremely talented folks out there who would take the time to make a perfect copy...aged and all. Patina can be manufactured pretty easily in many cases.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
The wit may have been too lofty for me...

If those responses were intended to be humorous, they went over my head, but I invite anyone to give another example of two ultra-rare items surfacing decades after similar items were known to be of great value, and BOTH of the two examples that happened to pop up are near perfect. Anyone? It won't happen because if a similar "miracle" pair appeared suddenly, they would be laughed-off as would Noah if he began gathering pairs of animals in Scranton, PA, in 2012. Even if someone took a pair of real RLBB with paint damage and had a good paint man mask, paint, then clean up the pink copies, it would be a very simple process, and spectraflame can be duplicated now. And it has been. There is every reason to toss those two out as impossible to authenticate. Common logic makes this call very simple. As for the cars provenance, which is the only thing that could help to authenticate them, no one knows if there is truly any real provenance. B. P. and S. B. WANT their items to be legit, but that certainly does not make them legit.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
and...

when the owners of the two extremely questionable RLBBs try to value them at 60 to 100k, it's time to take a very serious look at them. Conspiracy theory, no, but a very expensive "misunderstanding," probably.
 

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when the owners of the two extremely questionable RLBBs try to value them at 60 to 100k, it's time to take a very serious look at them. Conspiracy theory, no, but a very expensive "misunderstanding," probably.

Ive been at this for a very long time.I know guys that were there when the original was found and even knew the guy who found the original.I remember all of it.Some of my friends ended up with some of the other protos that were in that same batch.

You seem to have some sort of an agenda regarding RLBB.

One would have to go to extremely great lengths to fabricate one of these to fool the experts.
And at the end of the day,its not the Hope Diamond.Its not worth the effort.

At the end of the day,who cares???

Mike
 

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If those responses were intended to be humorous, they went over my head, but I invite anyone to give another example of two ultra-rare items surfacing decades after similar items were known to be of great value, and BOTH of the two examples that happened to pop up are near perfect. Anyone? It won't happen because if a similar "miracle" pair appeared suddenly, they would be laughed-off as would Noah if he began gathering pairs of animals in Scranton, PA, in 2012. Even if someone took a pair of real RLBB with paint damage and had a good paint man mask, paint, then clean up the pink copies, it would be a very simple process, and spectraflame can be duplicated now. And it has been. There is every reason to toss those two out as impossible to authenticate. Common logic makes this call very simple. As for the cars provenance, which is the only thing that could help to authenticate them, no one knows if there is truly any real provenance. B. P. and S. B. WANT their items to be legit, but that certainly does not make them legit.
What is highlighted in red is incorrect ..... If a person was to duplicate a 1968-1977 Redline Car with new fresh paint - a true collector would be able to spot that custom a mile away in many ways.... 1) Too glossy of paint after the car is clear coated 2) The smell of the paint afterwards 3) It's too hard to get the car to oxidize/toning underneath the paint to look like the real deal Redline from the 60s/70s..... Redlines were tumbled then painted back in the day, that's why you see toning underneath the paint. Todays RLC Cars are chemically cleaning after they get tumbled, then polished before they get painted. Its hard to duplicate the spectrapaint with toning shading.
 

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Ive been at this for a very long time.I know guys that were there when the original was found and even knew the guy who found the original.I remember all of it.Some of my friends ended up with some of the other protos that were in that same batch.

You seem to have some sort of an agenda regarding RLBB.

One would have to go to extremely great lengths to fabricate one of these to fool the experts.
And at the end of the day,its not the Hope Diamond.Its not worth the effort.

At the end of the day,who cares???

Mike
For 20-100k depending on how detailed the job who in their right mind(if you were a dishonest person) wouldn't try that? You have much better odds than the lottery since all you have to do is manipulate a toy car to make it look old.
Many people before have gone to greater lengths to make far less money.

There are plenty of ways to overcome all of the "tells" above as well.

All one would need to do is mimic the original process which was just laid out.

Could or would I do it? No. No skills or will to be dishonest. I use m powers for good not evil. But I am sure others are plugging away at it now.
 

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The RLBB was never released in a blisterpack, it was only taken from Mattel through the back door of the factory, like all the other prototypes. Not every engineer gave their prototypes to their kids. The first pink one found, ircc, was made for the kids daughter who ended up not liking it, so he tucked it away and forgot about it until it was discovered 30+ years later.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
good lord...

At least a few people have kept objectivity. There is NO doubt that a talented man could easily create paint EXACTLY like aged spectraflame paint. It would be child's play for hundreds of people in that line. If you don't understand that, you spend too much time in diecast land and too little in reality. As the man stated, when the values go this high, there is good reason to make fakes. Agendas? heh. This is common sense. I have yet to see anyone give another example of TWO rare items such as these...that JUST HAPPEN to be in the PERFECT redline color...too funny...and OH YEAH, in near perfect cond. It's absurd to even consider the odds. Those of you who have heard the stories so many times you think you know it as fact, you're fooling yourselves. NO ONE can ever truly authenticate those two because there is NOTHING to compare them with. Everything points to something fishy with those, and almost nothing points to them being "correct." Sorry, Virginia...but in this case, there is no Santa.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
oh, and Sly...

I suppose you were there at the Mattel back door witnessing all these actions? Cmon. You're just telling another 3rd hand rumor or speculation. I could make up much better stories if I wanted to pass off a fake. Do you believe everything you here/read? Use LOGIC. Explain why it took so many years for them to appear, and then they were near mint...OH and PINK. It's too obvious. I won't spend more time trying to remove the Kool-aid from your systems. You can only see when you choose to look.
 

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If someone in this day and age has 50 grand to spend how they please, so be it.
I do recal that hey were done for a little girl that didn't like them and then being put away.
People are always finding stuff that was put away years ago that they forgot they had.
Even in this day and age to try and duplicate the process of how it was done in the late 60's is pretty extreme considering it is after all a toy.
 

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:wave:
For 20-100k depending on how detailed the job who in their right mind(if you were a dishonest person) wouldn't try that? You have much better odds than the lottery since all you have to do is manipulate a toy car to make it look old.
Many people before have gone to greater lengths to make far less money.

There are plenty of ways to overcome all of the "tells" above as well.

All one would need to do is mimic the original process which was just laid out.

Could or would I do it? No. No skills or will to be dishonest. I use m powers for good not evil. But I am sure others are plugging away at it now.
Not so easy to make a die cast car from scratch.Let alone make one,and then have to do what it takes to make it look like a car that is many years old.
Our friend Livin Low mentioned some good points as far as the paint and metal and so on.

Too much work for too much risk.Way too much work.

So what's the deal Incorrigible........were you some how cast out from someplace because of your theory,or some how got burned in a deal on a fake?

I am genuinely interested,as you seem to know a good bit on the matter,and I always enjoy talking about the old stuff,even tho I dumped all I had years ago.:wave:

Mike
 

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I won't spend more time trying to remove the Kool-aid from your systems. You can only see when you choose to look.
You don't really seem to have a "RLBB question." What you seem to have in an opinion you would like us to hear and berate those who do not share it. I'm curious as to your agenda though, and to why someone hasn't already told you where you may enter your next snarky reply. Something to think about.....:wave:
 

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:wave:

Not so easy to make a die cast car from scratch.Let alone make one,and then have to do what it takes to make it look like a car that is many years old.
Our friend Livin Low mentioned some good points as far as the paint and metal and so on.

Too much work for too much risk.Way too much work.



Mike
You may be right but my thought was, if someone took an existing old one, stripped it, tumbled it, and messed around with matching the paint and process, for under a hundred dollars you could buy a few on ePay, and sit and mess around with it for a while. trial and error. I dont know that I would have the expertise or more importantly the patience, but for a $50k payout, many do. I dont have a horse in this race, I just know that people have gone to much greater lengths for smaller payouts, on things such as a watch, a Wells Fargo Shotgun, only foiled by the fact that they overlooked the Serial number range was outside when it would have been used. less payout on that.

Military collectibles, specifically Confederate objects, which are many times impossible to authenticate, have pretty much killed the market because the fakes have been so well made, that people will not buy Confederate items due to it, unless the authentication is so airtight it is virtually impossible.
 

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I doubt I will ever see or have a real or fake one, so I don't really have a view on it. One thing I do know though- If it's worth money, there is a fake out there somewhere, regardless of what it is.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Honestly, I saw something...

a few days ago that brought those two pink cars to mind, and as I began to consider their conditions, I had an epiphany. Of course people put things away even then. We see pristine examples all the time, BUT what we don't see is FIRST EVER found examples of the rarest car in the rarest color in near perfect condition. TWICE, after they had become valuable. And mind you, NO EXAMPLEs with worn paint or damage. No, I haven't been burned and have no axe to grind with the owners of the cars. And I agree that people can spend 50k as they please, but if they are using it to buy vintage collectibles, they buy ONLY because the items are 100 percent legit. I say again, those two examples can never be authenticated. They exist in a vacuum. And I never meant to say they were created from scratch. Go back to my post where I stated they could have been very worn examples of RLBB. It would be rather simple to create a pink version with such a car in hand. And isn't it odd, too, that neither of the pink RLBBs has any sign of toning? I stopped collecting redlines years ago, but almost every fair colored car I had showed toning. I'm sure it's just another coincidence. And the little girl story, cmon. Here, I'll make up my own story: Pretend one of you has contacted me about the third pink RLBB. You: Hi, can you please tell me the history of the car? Me: Oh sure. I was born and raised in So. Cal. and my uncle Ted worked for Mattel in the 60s. He used to bring home cars that were extras, etc. Well, for my 11th bday, he brought me a small box of HWs from work. Sadly, I had outgrown toy cars by then and was on to sports. I never really took them out of the box. Mom put them in our attic, and they sat for decades until my folks died. Ta DAH. That was all off-the-cuff. With an hour to plan, I could convince you my dad OWNED Mattel and had the car made JUST for me.
 
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