[Griffworks]

In all honesty, I'd have to say "A".


What?



Seriously, as has been pointed out in either this thread or another, Occam's Razor seems to apply, IMNSHO. Thus, B seems the most logical answer.

 

[Griffworks]

All kidding aside, let's watch the jabs, playful or otherwise. So long as we can all keep a sense of humor and not incite others, we're all good.

 

[uss_columbia]

I think I've got it: the lift isn't really a lift at all but rather an instantaneous intership transporter (with holographic projection of the destination). You step through the "lift" doors to beam into the "lift" chamber, then step out of the "lift" chamber to beam to the desired location. This can also explain why there's always a "lift car" waiting -- lots of "lifts" are available, and their actual location on the ship is unimportant.
There!

 

[uss_columbia]

It doesn't show what happens to that lift away from the centerline, now does it? And we have seen a couple of instances where the turbolift moves sideways before opening onto the bridge, now haven't we, kids?

The lift tube feature is on the centerline.
However, if you don't mind modifying the hull to make room for a sideways shift at the bridge, MGagen gave you this, way back when:

 

[BEBruns]

This can also explain why there's always a "lift car" waiting -- lots of "lifts" are available, and their actual location on the ship is unimportant.

Actually, in "The Naked Time", Kirk does have to wait for the lift after they carry Sulu off the bridge. I think this is the only time this has happened in any of the series.

 

[uss_columbia]

^ In TWOK, Kirk and Saavik were observed "holding up the ... elevator," much to McCoy's irritation.

 

[jheilman]

"She change her hairstyle?"

"Hadn't noticed."

Back when Kirstie was hot. :thumbsup:

Wow, 25 years ago!!

 

[aridas sofia]

It doesn't show what happens to that lift away from the centerline, now does it? And we have seen a couple of instances where the turbolift moves sideways before opening onto the bridge, now haven't we, kids?

This is physically impossible. There is no "what happens to that lift away from the centerline" because the lift rises all the way up into the tube. That shaft doesn't stop below the bridge, it's top is the top of the tube -- if it went anywhere horizontally from there it would be out in space.

 

[Steve Mavronis]

^^^ Yes thats my take on it too. I have to check out which way the motion lights move when they get in the elevator and it goes, although in reality it stayed stationary on the stage. Of course there is probably instances where some stage hand goofed and moved the light bars the wrong way! Little did he know that 40 years later we find he throws a monkey wrench into the whole debate from his mistake!

 

[Griffworks]

OK, folks. It's past time to move on from talking about the Bridge and how it fits in the ship and back to the primary subject at hand. There are several pages now talking about the bridge that could have been devoted to Mark's primary reason for starting the thread and it appears to me that the majority of folks here have made it pretty clear that the bridge set fits in the "real" Enterprise, tho it being a bridge set and not part of a real starship means that it might need a minor bit of tweaking. Whether it's offset in one direction or other other isn't germaine to the primary discussion point and is therefore verboten to talk about.

For those who don't understand what I'm saying, in simpler language - stop talking about the danged bridge and move on!

 

[Four Mad Men]

The "squashed soccer ball" shape actually can work and has an interesting feature: Because each section revolves around the central axis, the door sections separate as the doors open, giving room for the sections to slide past each other. Also, they could come together to present a nearly seamless outer surface, rather than the stair stepped one necessary with a spherical door. Here's a study drawing I made back in early '04 to illustrate the point:

In honor of MGagen...

It took a couple of tries to get a sequence where none of the sections interfered with another while still remaining tucked in behind the following section. And there is still the issue of what to do with the "observation area" above the doors. Undercutting it would be the simplest solution but I don't want to do that just yet as I think it can be done without being so extreme in removing part of it. Need modify the doors just a little to present the segment separations when fully closed. As it stands now when closed the segments have no visible separation.

So... here is my U.S.S. Potemkin (aka Texture test bed)...

Hangar Door Test (106 KB, XviD)

Basically each section moves back and once clear rotates. Once the current section has rotated enough to provide clearance for the next, that section also moves back and rotates while the previous section continues its rotatation to it's final resting place. And so on for the third mobile section.

 

[uss_columbia]

It's past time to move on from talking about the Bridge and how it fits in the ship and back to the primary subject at hand.

True, bridge discussion has been had. There's probably some life left in the hangar discussion, though.
Edit: Four Mad Men beat me to it!

You can read the past discussion on it over here, beginning with post 263.

If anyone saved the images mentioned in post 265 on the same page (and originally posted in 266), please post them or send them to me. (I asked Dennis if he still had them a while back (via PM on trekbbs) but didn't get a response.)

One of these days, I'll whip up some quick models of the non-distorted hangar in the position shown in the cross-section, with Warped9's interpretation of the just-over-24' shuttle, and see how it looks.

Phil's nice renders of a fairly workable hangar are here. (His "garage doors" would lead right into where I believe main engineering is located, though.)

(Ooh! I just mentioned the hangar deck and main engineering. Let's keep it civil, people. )

 

[uss_columbia]

Very cool, Four Mad Men!!

Could we see a view looking down on the doors from above, please?

 

[Steve Mavronis]

Phil's nice renders of a fairly workable hangar are here. (His "garage doors" would lead right into where I believe main engineering is located, though.)

Yes Phil's hangar renders look great. He has the style down for the hangar bay look for the angles we never saw in the show. A far as I know they never made the forward bulkhead for the miniature hangar model.

I was just looking at his deck layout here and the engineering room would be on the deck above the garage doors.

Main Engineering's location is a paradox. The ceiling and beams curve above which makes it right for the secondary hull next to the hangar under the warp engine pylons. The red engine chamber upsidedown "V" effect behind the grating could be the butt end of control conduits positioned at a 90 degree angle relative to the pylons "V" angle.

I prefer Main Engineering there, yet the door leads to a curved corridor like it is in the saucer section as if we are seeing impulse drives instead. (The studio set layout bears this out.)

Also, we have seen smaller auxilary engine rooms (entered from a curved corridor) with the same red engine effect though the grating. Multiple red engine chambers would match up with the several impulse engines on the saucer. Just a paradox among many in the Star Trek world.

 

[X15-A2]

Actually, those doors in my Hangar Deck enter into an area below the level of Main Engineering. In my version, the entire Main Engineering set is positioned forward of the nacelle pylon attach point, including the "V" shaped structure seen behind the grill. This was done for several reasons but I'm certain that Mr. Jefferies originally intended the v-structure to be located directly below the pylons, as others here suggest. Unfortunately that location doesn't make any particular sense because the "V-structure" will not line up with the pylons (the exterior attach points are too far outboard). Main Engineering would have to be located much lower for the angles to line up, which then not only interferes with the forward Hangar Deck compartments but it is also not where he had intended it to be. So I put it at the level he had intended but moved it forward, which also allows for heavy duty carry-through bulkheads and related structure to occupy the space where the nacelles attach. The transverse support bulkheads then only need a few cutouts for the two forward hangar bays (beyond the blue doors in my renderings), the below-deck service area and the Observation Deck access corridors.

So, unless you want a Main Engineering room floor located slightly below the floor level of the Hangar deck, you won't be getting the nacelle pylons to line up with the V-structure seen in the set.

And Main Engineering does not open onto a curved corridor, it opens onto a straight corridor which is soon crossed by another corridor at right-angles. That cross corridor is indeed curved but I am certain that it would have been straight as well, had Mr. Jefferies had the budget to build it the way he planned it. He had clearly established where the set was located inside the ship but was not able to build everything that he wanted. Such is life.

Phil

 

[Steve Mavronis]

I'm certain that Mr. Jefferies originally intended the v-structure to be located directly below the pylons, as others here suggest. Unfortunately that location doesn't make any particular sense because the "V-structure" will not line up with the pylons (the exterior attach points are too far outboard).

I was just wondering what if the entire V-structure in main engineering was feeding just the starboard engine pylon, and the auxilary engine room took up the other half of the deck feeding the port pylon? Just a thought that crossed my mind. Maybe it would line up with the pylons better that way?

And Main Engineering does not open onto a curved corridor, it opens onto a straight corridor which is soon crossed by another corridor at right-angles. That cross corridor is indeed curved but I am certain that it would have been straight as well, had Mr. Jefferies had the budget to build it the way he planned it.

Could be. I was including the outer entrance short hallway with the ladder tube area as part of it. But it does connect to a curved set hallway. Although in "real life" main engineering needs to be under the warp engine pylons to be practical about it. Like you said, too bad Jefferies didn't have exclusive control over the set layout when it comes to how things are connected and seen on screen.

Instead, they have it as it is on the set floor plan that way just for efficiency to fit everything on a studio stage building to give the "illusion" that you are inside a Starship. We can't take everything like that literally or it will drive us all nuts trying to rationalize it! LOL.

 

[MGagen]

I haven't had time to keep up with this blazing hot thread in recent days, so here's a mega post to bring me up to date.

Chuck PR asked my opinion of the Casmiro First Pilot plans:
I do not have time at present to do a detailed comparison of these with my own research, but I did once do that with his production version. Unless these are substantially different my opinion of them would be the same. To wit, Casmiro's plans are the most beautiful artistically of any of the plans I've seen. The way he calls out various details is truly top notch and the overall plans are a work of art. They are really quite good and would rate a B+ grade from me on accuracy. Given how long ago he made them and the references that were available then, I'd say they are remarkably good. I still think the Sinclair plans get higher marks for accuracy overall. I'd give Sinclair an A-. The best plans (and I know they are small and have a few minor inaccuracies in them) are the Polar Lights decal placement guides from the PL instruction sheet. For overall proportion, shape and placement of the major components they are the best publicly available. My only major quibble with them is the spherical bridge shape.

Griff:
I'm sorry to see you've banned any discussion of bridge issues from the thread -- but you're the boss. As the originator of the thread I'd like to say that bridge size and orientation are at least tangentially related to the issue at hand. And what's more, I was just about to post some new data about the pilot dome. Do I need to start a new thread for it? If so, I'll post a pointer here at least to let folks know about it.

4MM:
Thanks for door animation! That is too cool. My original idea was that under the overhanging doo-hicky (I won't call it a control room, it's too small and inaccessible) was an unseen solid part where the doors attache in separate tracks. This is much like the lower, visible one on X15-1A's renderings. Since the door curves are still at an oblique angle there, I figured that the doors could slide past each other without having to move down or back, as long as the edges that mate up are beveled in the proper (and variable) angle. Your solution works too, and still shows the increasing space between the segments as they come to rest. Thanks!

To all:
I use "MGagen" and don't use my first name at all for a good reason. Some of us do not want our first and last names to occur together in an easily Google-able way for professional reasons. Not everyone wants hundreds of "fanboy" posts to come up in a search engine when prospective clients are Googling our names. In future, could everyone please refer to me simply as MGagen or just as M for short. Thanks!

X15-1A:
I think it is interesting to note that Jefferies calls out the deck level of Engineering as 2 feet below the Hangar Deck level on his Phase II cross section. Also, there is a way to have your cake and eat it too. Here's a graphic I did many moons ago to show how the conduits seen in Engineering could be made to attach to the nacelles. It takes the Jefferies specified "2 foot below centerline" deck level into account.

How Engineering might be oriented.

In my example, I've rendered the connection points as right angles which causes the conduits to have a wider configuration than on the show, but the same would work if you stuck with the visible angles. I also like the way it means you could walk up to the mesh and look down into the rest of the structure. It could also mean that an under floor conduit might stretch forward to link up under that dilithium crystal McGuffin in the middle of the deck. Food for thought.

M.

 

[uss_columbia]

I was just about to post some new data about the pilot dome.

The "pilot dome" isn't the bridge, so it should be safe. Please post.

 

[Griffworks]

Griff:
I'm sorry to see you've banned any discussion of bridge issues from the thread -- but you're the boss. As the originator of the thread I'd like to say that bridge size and orientation are at least tangentially related to the issue at hand. And what's more, I was just about to post some new data about the pilot dome. Do I need to start a new thread for it? If so, I'll post a pointer here at least to let folks know about it.

There was just too much arguing over the definition of the word "is" in the thread to keep the overall discussion going. The last several pages before I made my proclomation are a prime example of that.

Anyhow, you can talk about the bridge dome area, far as I'm concerned. To a point, that includes the interios insomuch as how they relate to the exterior. Just so long as the discussion doesn't get involved in whether or not the bridge set fits in there, any sort of offset or not and basically that whole side-tracked line of discussion.

 

[X15-A2]

Mark,

The Engine Room could be placed in a lower position but lining up the V-structure should be the last consideration, IMO. To me, the curved roof clearly indicates the exterior hull and blocking any forward use of space for Hangar Deck operations is too big of a drawback. Since no "reasonably" sized Shuttlecraft can fit below decks (unless one extends the bay far beyond the original space allotted)(although Mr. Jefferies original "short design" probably would have fit, I'm sure), the forward area must be reserved for Shuttlecraft stowage and maintenance. This would not mean that the elevator is useless, it simply serves other types of operations such as cargo transfer, small-craft operations ("work bees"), and un-manned probe recovery, to name a few possiblities.

That is my thinking about the subject so far.