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Discussion Starter #1
OK, this is something I have thought about for quite a long time, in all pancar racing, but I will direct it towards 10th oval right now, since that is what I'm 100% involved in, and it seems to be the big $$$$ hoopla right now.

A few years back touring cars ( sedan ) was starting to die, and really still is in my opinion, and it seems to be because of cost and changing equipment. I believe at one time in the past Tamiya had 4-5 different 415's in about a year and a half. Well this seems to be the case in everything in RC, batteries, ESC's, cars, servos even.

Now, some companies are trying to do something about this, and I commend their efforts, Tamiya ( mini's & F1 ) Losi ( Slider, Late model,) Associated ( just about everything on 4 wheels ) and many other companies trying to make RTR, or ARR, or scaled down kits of high dollar, high competition, exotic racing gear.

Now the question????? WHY NOT PAN CARS??????

Now James might hate me for this, but I bet he would agree, LOL.
I see no reason to be able to produce a fibregless chasis, no aluminum, more plastic parts, cheap funtional ESC & servo, lower line DSM radio & reciever, cheap 1s ( low mHA & C rated ) lipo battery, and COT w/ spec tire and even throw a lower end funtional lipo charger in the box as well, all for say $300 RTR......
This is something I can see would boost our beloved sport of oval. At the moment you are asking newbies to purchase a Losi slider or late model to learn the ropes of carpet oval, and when they flip it over enough, they might just flip over to DIRT with it. Lets get newbie to try things on a basic level as us, the SAME KIND of car, same adjustments, same feel, SAME LOOK.

OK, now ready for all the feedback......
 

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Peter- there's some cars out there on the market, but they're from "little" suppliers. (Windtunnel, BoLink, there's one in South Carolina) What I think would need to happen is someone like Associated to do it. They (and Losi) have the RTR market well in hand, but Associated has the parts needed (and the volume) to make it practical from a $$$ value.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Todd, I agree, but also I think that smaller companies can purchase nylon and plastics from A/E and build cars.
As for the electronics, well deals have to be made.
 

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Windtunnel "Breeze"

This was designed to be entry level but could also be used for the other levels of oval racing. We manufacture around 98% of the parts for this kit ourselves and it will soon be 100%. And all the parts for this kit are MADE IN AMERICA except for the bearings. The "Breeze" is a 1/10th scale pan car. It is not a slash or anything else other then a pan car with the look and feel of an oval racing pan car..

http://www.windtunnelracingproducts.com/product_info.php?cPath=42_166&products_id=1127
 

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@ Hobbyshop Cost

Brushless Motor and ESC: $132
2.4 Radio and Rx - $75
Battery - $36
Electronics Total -> $243

You're already more expensive than a slash...can you build, assemble, paint, and prep a full car for $100 to have any hope of selling one?

I couldn't find a way as a third party manufacturer to do it. I also figured you had to come up with a "car" that was the asphalt equivalent to CORR Trucks, or Sprint Cars, or EDM's. I couldn't think of any asphalt oval series that was that much fun to recreate.
 

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I have always thought this idea would work well also. The question is, can a company make something RTR for oval and that mimics the cars we already run, and do it for around $300?

The sliders are great for people to learn oval with, the problem lies with when they step up to a car like we all currently run, so much stuff changes. Setup, tires, electronics, etc. Also, the cost jumps up quite a bit.

If someone could make a car real similar to what we currently run, but with plastic parts to reduce some cost, I see no reason why it couldn't work. My local hobby shop, The Hobby Connection, here in SC has a car much like that now. It's called the Revolution RTR. It doesn't use side shocks or anything but instead uses dampners. The chassis, I believe, is fiberglass.

Problem is, it can't be ready to race for $300.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
@ Hobbyshop Cost

Brushless Motor and ESC: $132
2.4 Radio and Rx - $75
Battery - $36
Electronics Total -> $243

You're already more expensive than a slash...can you build, assemble, paint, and prep a full car for $100 to have any hope of selling one?

I couldn't find a way as a third party manufacturer to do it. I also figured you had to come up with a "car" that was the asphalt equivalent to CORR Trucks, or Sprint Cars, or EDM's. I couldn't think of any asphalt oval series that was that much fun to recreate.
Jr. your thinking " inside " the box, the prices you have quoted are I would think stuff you can buy " separate " and that is always more expensive. I believe most RTR that companies put out are breakeven, or lost leaders, but they get it back on the backend. We were talking about this on the weekend, that Losi puts out a Late Model kit at $200 Can. $ and if you want a replacement RX. its like $60, its the same as BIG car companies, sell you a complete car for $20,000 bit a replacement " plastic " heater accuator assembly is $400, you see what Im getting at.

I have always thought this idea would work well also. The question is, can a company make something RTR for oval and that mimics the cars we already run, and do it for around $300?

The sliders are great for people to learn oval with, the problem lies with when they step up to a car like we all currently run, so much stuff changes. Setup, tires, electronics, etc. Also, the cost jumps up quite a bit.

If someone could make a car real similar to what we currently run, but with plastic parts to reduce some cost, I see no reason why it couldn't work. My local hobby shop, The Hobby Connection, here in SC has a car much like that now. It's called the Revolution RTR. It doesn't use side shocks or anything but instead uses dampners. The chassis, I believe, is fiberglass.

Problem is, it can't be ready to race for $300.
I believe it can be done, as for Windtunnel, I had no idea they had a " base " car, ha, see who else would know???? And, at that price, for that car, I would spend a bit more, and get a more advanced chassis.
A/E could produce the least expensive car I believe, and Spektrum the electronics ( look at Losi sliders ) the two of them could do wonders.
But this is not to say that other car companies could not as well, I just don't think they have interest, and it is not as profitable for their time, and that is business.
 

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price is too high compared to other ready to run cars sold that is why it never works.
bingo! Radio, painted body & all would have to be around 300 to get it off the ground i would think...

For $280 someone could just go buy a normal oval kit & be done with it! $280 imo is rediculous for an entry level rtr style car.

Does it come assembled with body mounted & all at that price?
 

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Yep, the Breeze is a good idea, but way to expensive. For about 50 bucks more you can have a top of the line car.

Brushless legends is the way to get this to work. Put the same electronics in that would be used for TOUR 17.5 pan cars....

I bet we could talk RJ Speed into getting us setup with 64 pitch gears for the legends. They also have a COT kit for $150, but it is kinda like the Breeze where you would be spending money on something you cant really use above the one class.

Legend $100 without discount at Tower (or the COT pan car is $109...Could work as well)
Havoc Sport 1S 17.5 $149 without discount at Tower
2.4 Radio 79.99 at tower with no discount
Servo 20 to 60 bucks at tower without discount
Battery 54.99
Pinons 20 bucks

With the current deal you could get this for around 400 bucks with the discounts. Now if we could get Novak, RJ Speed, SMC, Trinity, Kimbrough, BSR (WGT tires) etc on board maybe we could get this for cheaper. Then when these "new" guys want to step up to pan cars they can just by the chassis...Or they could go SK racing and get a 13.5 motor. Maybe we could get Novak to do a great deal on a Ballistic and then they would just need to buy a stator to go to a different class.

The biggest thing about the "spec" classes is the track owners don't have the balls to set rules and stick to them...Now that may sound harsh, but it is just the way it is. I have seen it many times. Someone gets mad because they cant keep up so they want a new class. I totally understand why track owners do it (FYI I partially ran a track back in the day before I moved to Virginia). Track owners do not want to make people mad, so they go ahead and start a new class. This is where the TOUR should help. I know it is crazy now, but that is hard for TOUR to control. This type of class would be local to all tracks, and may be different. These racers are not going out of state, so you need something that is the same for your track for years with very few variations from season to season.

I know what I said may piss some people off, but IMO this is already there, we just need to wrap our arms around it. Let the bullets fly... LOL

Joel White
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yep, the Breeze is a good idea, but way to expensive. For about 50 bucks more you can have a top of the line car.

Brushless legends is the way to get this to work. Put the same electronics in that would be used for TOUR 17.5 pan cars....

I bet we could talk RJ Speed into getting us setup with 64 pitch gears for the legends. They also have a COT kit for $150, but it is kinda like the Breeze where you would be spending money on something you cant really use above the one class.

Legend $100 without discount at Tower (or the COT pan car is $109...Could work as well)
Havoc Sport 1S 17.5 $149 without discount at Tower
2.4 Radio 79.99 at tower with no discount
Servo 20 to 60 bucks at tower without discount
Battery 54.99
Pinons 20 bucks

With the current deal you could get this for around 400 bucks with the discounts. Now if we could get Novak, RJ Speed, SMC, Trinity, Kimbrough, BSR (WGT tires) etc on board maybe we could get this for cheaper. Then when these "new" guys want to step up to pan cars they can just by the chassis...Or they could go SK racing and get a 13.5 motor. Maybe we could get Novak to do a great deal on a Ballistic and then they would just need to buy a stator to go to a different class.

The biggest thing about the "spec" classes is the track owners don't have the balls to set rules and stick to them...Now that may sound harsh, but it is just the way it is. I have seen it many times. Someone gets mad because they cant keep up so they want a new class. I totally understand why track owners do it (FYI I partially ran a track back in the day before I moved to Virginia). Track owners do not want to make people mad, so they go ahead and start a new class. This is where the TOUR should help. I know it is crazy now, but that is hard for TOUR to control. This type of class would be local to all tracks, and may be different. These racers are not going out of state, so you need something that is the same for your track for years with very few variations from season to season.

I know what I said may piss some people off, but IMO this is already there, we just need to wrap our arms around it. Let the bullets fly... LOL

Joel White
Good on ya Joel, that is thinking. Now, as for the rules, well yes, TOUR would have to step in, make the guidelines, and then LHS's and tracks MUST follow them, remembering all the time that this is not an idea for "cost effective" racing for "experienced" racers, ( not saying that they can not participate ) but to be able to get "newbies" in to our sport with something that is realative to what we run. I hope that Associated, Losi, and whoever else may see this.
 

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Our newer racers in Dubuque routinely start with used stuff put together in packages. Example - Hangman chassis, older GTB, used 17.5 or 21.5, used servo, some new tires and a mounted body - selling for $225. Needed, radio, battery and charger. We find a way to get people into it. A RTR oval car with a decent rubber tire rather than foam would clearly work in my thoughts.
 

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Years ago, the old tire company CKW had built a kinda cool Plastic Tub (for lack of a better description) Molded PAN CAR chassis based on the old original RC10L

They were looking toward a "SPEC" oval chassis back then to compete with ASSOCIATED's Fiberglass version of the "L" series cars.

I know there were 15-20 of them that use to run in the So-Cal area back then...

price is too high compared to other ready to run cars sold that is why it never works.
The 'BREEZE' is a fair price, yet BRIAN is 100% correct - when compared to RTR Cars that SELL!

For $280 someone could just go buy a normal oval kit
Frank is also very RIGHT! But this is just the OVAL KIT, where the Breeze will come with a BODY and TIRES.

The bigger problem is NOBODY WANTS TO BUY A "RTR" OVAL CAR

There is NO "OVAL CAR" Basher market.

You can't take an OVAL Car out to the Play Ground and do anything with it....they are too sensitive to conditions.

A Off-Road Buggy - Truck - Truggie or a
TOURING CAR you can play with in front of your house, at the local school play ground, in the field at the end of the block, etc.

You plain and simply CAN'T do that with an oval car - so you just LOST 99% of your market.

I don't know how many "WINDTUNNEL" Breeze kits have been sold NATIONWIDE in the past couple years. But my guess "outside of their direct market" would be less than 100. That's not a MARKET.

"CHAIN" Hobby stores can't get them (Ok maybe they CAN...but THEY don't know it)

and... the NEWBIE OVAL RACER, in general is MUCH better to come in and meet racers, and buy a "USED" Competition car w/ lots of spare parts.

It would sure be nice if this segment of the r/c hobby had a couple thousand NEW faces a year to support this kind of "RTR" market. (that would only be 40 NEW Racers Per U.S. State per year)
 

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Hmmmmmmm......I buy Bolink, take over where wolfe dropped the ball on everyone, Been building tires since 1988, have a host of high performance bodies, parts, springs, axles, king pins, front ends, sell all over the world and Windtunnel is "little". :confused:
 

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Could we just run the Slashes on Oval? Slashes are the reason dirt racing has made a comeback... Could we just run them on the oval...As long as they were clean?
 

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Hmmmmmmm......I buy Bolink, take over where wolfe dropped the ball on everyone, Been building tires since 1988, have a host of high performance bodies, parts, springs, axles, king pins, front ends, sell all over the world and Windtunnel is "little". :confused:
I think what he was saying is Windtunnel is little in comparison to Associated, Team Losi, and Traxxas.
 

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There is NO "OVAL CAR" Basher market.

You can't take an OVAL Car out to the Play Ground and do anything with it....they are too sensitive to conditions.

I used to mess around in the street with my st10 & composite craft cars back in the day! i'll stick some full size tires on the pro4 and go race Peters 300 down the street the next time he comes to hangout in Detroit! :)
 

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Could we just run the Slashes on Oval? Slashes are the reason dirt racing has made a comeback... Could we just run them on the oval...As long as they were clean?
slashes run at my local track & that has brought new people into the hobby!! Honestly those things look like a blast!! They have more fun in that class than i've ever seen people have racing rc cars!!!
 

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I believe the demise is caused by the competition the R/C car manufacturers have for the customers in general.

The TOY guys get 1st dibs at Wal-mart. Kmart, Target, U know what I mean. Heck look at TYCO... has "oval" "road" and "off road" less than 100 bucks. Add in the others.....kid and his dad came to the LHS looking for a battery, had one of the nicest plastic 1/8 scale Monte Carlo's I've ever seen (DEI #8) all plastic did not ask but I bet it cost everything of $100.00

Problem REAL newbies don't even see the inside of a hobby shop.

Heck the LHS (Hobby Town) here does not stock any paved surface cars. All are offroad and then mostly gas.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I used to mess around in the street with my st10 & composite craft cars back in the day! i'll stick some full size tires on the pro4 and go race Peters 300 down the street the next time he comes to hangout in Detroit! :)
Oh No, I would get SMOKED Frankie, LOL.
I started back 30 years ago, racing Associated 12E on pavment, around any pylon I could find, just to get better, and then took that car to, " hardwood floor " to race onroad with silicon caped tires. That was certainly, " bashing " as it will.
 
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