Hand Out Motors at big events?????
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I prefer hand-out motors at any "big" event, because this ensures that everybody is using the same quality of motor and it is mainly a race between the drivers, not cheating and tweaking.
Justin #29
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Justin #29
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I can go either way. I like them for the racing part of it but usally you are stuck with junk motors..
But all in all I am for it
it keeps it a little more fair. It takes out the money part when joe blow buys 20 motors to get 1 or 2 killer one's
But all in all I am for it
it keeps it a little more fair. It takes out the money part when joe blow buys 20 motors to get 1 or 2 killer one's
I like handouts. However, I'd also like to see closed-endbell, no-tweaking, no-fuss handouts. At the big races, it seems like if you don't have a motor-tuning guy in your corner, than you're left out in the cold. Of course, The Big-T tried to revive that approach and it fell flat.
I personally feel that handout motors makes the field unequal. The guy that can spend $1000+ on a dyno, computer, lathe, dozens of brushes and 100s of hours of spare time learning to tune motors will have a leg up on those that can't afford the money or time. Allowing racers to bring your own motor means anyone can "buy" a good tuned motor for only a few bucks more then the handout cost in the first place.
I have to disagree with this! You can go buy any after market motor, and the guy that knows how to build a motor will still have a better motor, and about the dyno/computer first: i dont trust/believe in dyno's Second I dont have none of the tools you listed all i do is bum a lathe, and build my own motors and i still have some of the best stock motors at the track dyno/track proven..........hankster said:I personally feel that handout motors makes the field unequal. The guy that can spend $1000+ on a dyno, computer, lathe, dozens of brushes and 100s of hours of spare time learning to tune motors will have a leg up on those that can't afford the money or time. Allowing racers to bring your own motor means anyone can "buy" a good tuned motor for only a few bucks more then the handout cost in the first place.
Second: You give that rich person that spends 1,000's of dollars hundreds of motors and all that (NEAT) equiptment and I have a chance with my 1 after market motor??? (I dont think so)
Now give that rich guy ONLY 3 motors and me 3 motors I like my chances of competition better then 100 to 1?
I can see both sides of the coin.
If the handout motor is going to be a motor that everyone is currently using say for instance in oval racing the Monster motor, then I have no problem running a handout.
ROAR used this motor last year at BMS and I did not hear one complaint. It's a motor everyone is familiar with. Plus then afterwards you actually get some use out of the motor.
But when they pull out some goofy motor no one runs weekly, then I am not in favor of it (say for instance the ROAR nats using the MVP, which virutally 99% do not run this motor in oval). So then you are left with 2 options. Option A - Two weeks before the event the motor is announced so you have to go out and buy a bunch of em, and franticly try and see what works as far as brushes, springs, and rollouts. Then you get to the nats and buy 3 of them to make sure you get maybe one that runs well. Which then leaves you after the nats with a bunch of paperweights.
Options B - Or you dont test and hope to heck you know someone at the nats that can build the sucker for you.
I actually like the idea of bringing your own motor to national events.
Pretty much everyone that runs a national event is up to speed with what works and has their own arsenal of motors. And even if you dont have a dyno most everyone knows someone that will spin it up for you. Heck we have been getting beat all summer by a guy who has not dyno'd a motor yet, while we all play the dyno game. All he checks is amp draw. Even if you only have a couple motors, you know how they run and how to gear em and brush em.
It's all chassis anyway, LOL
If the handout motor is going to be a motor that everyone is currently using say for instance in oval racing the Monster motor, then I have no problem running a handout.
ROAR used this motor last year at BMS and I did not hear one complaint. It's a motor everyone is familiar with. Plus then afterwards you actually get some use out of the motor.
But when they pull out some goofy motor no one runs weekly, then I am not in favor of it (say for instance the ROAR nats using the MVP, which virutally 99% do not run this motor in oval). So then you are left with 2 options. Option A - Two weeks before the event the motor is announced so you have to go out and buy a bunch of em, and franticly try and see what works as far as brushes, springs, and rollouts. Then you get to the nats and buy 3 of them to make sure you get maybe one that runs well. Which then leaves you after the nats with a bunch of paperweights.
Options B - Or you dont test and hope to heck you know someone at the nats that can build the sucker for you.
I actually like the idea of bringing your own motor to national events.
Pretty much everyone that runs a national event is up to speed with what works and has their own arsenal of motors. And even if you dont have a dyno most everyone knows someone that will spin it up for you. Heck we have been getting beat all summer by a guy who has not dyno'd a motor yet, while we all play the dyno game. All he checks is amp draw. Even if you only have a couple motors, you know how they run and how to gear em and brush em.
It's all chassis anyway, LOL
Cheating is a different story and should never be done.Justin_29 said:I prefer hand-out motors at any "big" event, because this ensures that everybody is using the same quality of motor and it is mainly a race between the drivers, not cheating and tweaking.
Not to sound mean, but you dont think guys are going to tweak and tune handouts??
Believe me folks the $500 zappers come out, the balancers come out, etc
So to say a handout puts me on a level field with someone else is bogus.
Cause right now I am at a disadvantage to someone who has a zapper cause I do not own one.
I Don't like HANDOUTS, every race that I have run in the past 20 years that had handouts, were paperweights.
At least by using a motor you run and are use to tuning, you know how it's going to respond. You may be out motored by someone else, but YOU'LL Always have that chance...
That being said...I do LIKE Handouts...IF (This is the big IF) If you hand out the motor and NO TUNING IS ALLOWED, NO CHANGES ARE ALLOWED, and after EACH ROUND of QUALIFYING the motors go into a BOX and are rehanded out. NO BRUSH CHANGES, NO SPRING CHANGES and YOU DO NOT BUY the motors, they belong to the race. (They may be sold after the event or reused at other events)
At least by using a motor you run and are use to tuning, you know how it's going to respond. You may be out motored by someone else, but YOU'LL Always have that chance...
That being said...I do LIKE Handouts...IF (This is the big IF) If you hand out the motor and NO TUNING IS ALLOWED, NO CHANGES ARE ALLOWED, and after EACH ROUND of QUALIFYING the motors go into a BOX and are rehanded out. NO BRUSH CHANGES, NO SPRING CHANGES and YOU DO NOT BUY the motors, they belong to the race. (They may be sold after the event or reused at other events)
Yes, you are very correct erock! I realised that just now!
Thanks!
Justin #29
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Thanks!
Justin #29
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That sounds good untill the motor you pull out of the box was overgeared by 10 teeth in the run before! I feel handout motors are more for the perception of an "EVEN" playing field than any other purpose. There will always be an advantage someone has over someone else period. This is by nature a competitive hobby/sport and the only way to gain more advantages is by making the most of the ones you already have! i.e. chassie setup, driving, even helping others. You never know when they might be able to return the favor. Bottom line is that 90% of people spending thousands of dollars to find a few sweet motors or anything else for that matter are trying to compensate for some other disadvantages (see previous i.e.) So ultimately the only thing a race director can control is, everyone runs a handout or brings there own.That being said...I do LIKE Handouts...IF (This is the big IF) If you hand out the motor and NO TUNING IS ALLOWED, NO CHANGES ARE ALLOWED, and after EACH ROUND of QUALIFYING the motors go into a BOX and are rehanded out. NO BRUSH CHANGES, NO SPRING CHANGES and YOU DO NOT BUY the motors, they belong to the race. (They may be sold after the event or reused at other events)
My opinion only.
Steve
IMHO I think nats is where all new motors need to make there first appearence. how equal is that. Everyone is on the same page right off the bat. You have a motor make it work. I would rather take a motor and try and tune it, also make the chassis work with car. In other words do some actuall work. To me it sounds like the same old story. It's all about the other racer, I raced for over 10ys and finally got a dyno. Did well without one. Didn't automatically go faster just because I got one. Stock motor racing is you get a motor which is the same brand as the other racers and you do what you can to get your but around the track as fast as you can. spec racing is the same ( you get a motor and run it) It may not be what your use to. but how fair is it for people to travel to your track. How many hours of tracks time do you have it verse the guy who showed for the first time. Maybe we should dock laps for experence to make it fair to the other racers.
So for the Nats this year it's a MVP so what? I've run one there twice in practice.
and yes I was slower I did not get my NORMAL laps in. it's still the fastest one wins and there can only be one winner the rest are whinners. You know you never here the winner complain about the motor.
So for the Nats this year it's a MVP so what? I've run one there twice in practice.
and yes I was slower I did not get my NORMAL laps in. it's still the fastest one wins and there can only be one winner the rest are whinners. You know you never here the winner complain about the motor.
One of the biggest reasons they use handouts is to ease the ability to tech the motors....they can have a sample sitting there and know EXACTLY what arm, can, endbell is supposed to be one. When you allow open motors, this gets much harder, as there are quite a few choices available, so the chance of hybird sneaking in goes way up.
I had my zapper at nats.....and I used it like 3 times, all on 19t motors....never once on an MVP. If people are bringing there balancers to rebalance stocks, I have never seen it, not to mention is illegal....specifically mentioned in the rule book.
As for needing all this highend equipment.....don't know about that either. I tuned over 40 MVPs at nats, and about 30+ 19t.....and thats not counting rebuilds. I never put a single MVP on the dyno.....I did dyno a few 19t just to see what they did....and cause the racer requested it. I used my fiddlestick, alignment bar, a couple of screw drivers, lathe, my charger(motor break in), an exacto.....my zapper was used when a person requested.....didn't zap a single one of my team motors (no 19t or stocks)....
Final results....2,3, and 10th in the A main stock, 5 of the 10 in the masters A main....3 in stock pan car A main, including TQ.....and 2 people in the 19t A.
The biggest problem I have with handout motors is people end up with Rockets....and its not because they make a good motor a rocket, its just the luck of the draw a lot of time. In my opinion the best handout motors would be handwound epoxy balanced motors....not only does this remove a huge variable in the quality of the windings(typically the main reason you get a rocket motor, though it can occasionally be advanced timing on the comm), it also removes the ability to rebalance the arm at all, as you could simply denote the amount of epoxy blobs on the arm during the marking process.
Snowbirds had this right halfway, as they had epoxy balanced motors this year, but still no handwinding......and before you say "handwound stockers are illegal".....go read the rules, they are not.....only 19t motors have to be machine wound.
And using a new motor won't work either, as it will only make it more unfair.....as less experienced tuners will be attempting to tune something they know nothing about while they are trying to handle everything else on their car and driving, while the experienced will more than likely get it right and quicker.....and there will be NO resources for a person to get on the net and looks for tips on the motor......and the BIGGEST issue is the Team advantage.....you can't tell me orion, reedy, or trinity is going to make a motor and then not to touch it all till the race starts....sorry, teams look for the leg up always. Look no further than snowbirds with the new ultrabird 19t....had not been released.....trinity guys were instantly fast with it, while the rest of us were still figuring it out.....guess who won and got tq??? Trinity.....
In the end, there are always plenty of motor guys at national events.....and its not hard to get one of them to tune your motor up, all you gotta do is ask.....over half the motors I did were for non-team guys who just asked and I did it at no charge.
And besides...tuning a motor isn't as hard as people make it out to be, they sell a great book on this site to show you the ropes and a quick search on the net will bring up additional info, not to mention what you can find here. Just takes a little patience and effort to learn to tune a motor....
Or maybe you can go use those brushless motors that are supposed to be 10 turns, yet they can turn laps barely faster than a stock motor....
Later EddieO
I had my zapper at nats.....and I used it like 3 times, all on 19t motors....never once on an MVP. If people are bringing there balancers to rebalance stocks, I have never seen it, not to mention is illegal....specifically mentioned in the rule book.
As for needing all this highend equipment.....don't know about that either. I tuned over 40 MVPs at nats, and about 30+ 19t.....and thats not counting rebuilds. I never put a single MVP on the dyno.....I did dyno a few 19t just to see what they did....and cause the racer requested it. I used my fiddlestick, alignment bar, a couple of screw drivers, lathe, my charger(motor break in), an exacto.....my zapper was used when a person requested.....didn't zap a single one of my team motors (no 19t or stocks)....
Final results....2,3, and 10th in the A main stock, 5 of the 10 in the masters A main....3 in stock pan car A main, including TQ.....and 2 people in the 19t A.
The biggest problem I have with handout motors is people end up with Rockets....and its not because they make a good motor a rocket, its just the luck of the draw a lot of time. In my opinion the best handout motors would be handwound epoxy balanced motors....not only does this remove a huge variable in the quality of the windings(typically the main reason you get a rocket motor, though it can occasionally be advanced timing on the comm), it also removes the ability to rebalance the arm at all, as you could simply denote the amount of epoxy blobs on the arm during the marking process.
Snowbirds had this right halfway, as they had epoxy balanced motors this year, but still no handwinding......and before you say "handwound stockers are illegal".....go read the rules, they are not.....only 19t motors have to be machine wound.
And using a new motor won't work either, as it will only make it more unfair.....as less experienced tuners will be attempting to tune something they know nothing about while they are trying to handle everything else on their car and driving, while the experienced will more than likely get it right and quicker.....and there will be NO resources for a person to get on the net and looks for tips on the motor......and the BIGGEST issue is the Team advantage.....you can't tell me orion, reedy, or trinity is going to make a motor and then not to touch it all till the race starts....sorry, teams look for the leg up always. Look no further than snowbirds with the new ultrabird 19t....had not been released.....trinity guys were instantly fast with it, while the rest of us were still figuring it out.....guess who won and got tq??? Trinity.....
In the end, there are always plenty of motor guys at national events.....and its not hard to get one of them to tune your motor up, all you gotta do is ask.....over half the motors I did were for non-team guys who just asked and I did it at no charge.
And besides...tuning a motor isn't as hard as people make it out to be, they sell a great book on this site to show you the ropes and a quick search on the net will bring up additional info, not to mention what you can find here. Just takes a little patience and effort to learn to tune a motor....
Or maybe you can go use those brushless motors that are supposed to be 10 turns, yet they can turn laps barely faster than a stock motor....
Later EddieO
The vast majority of handout motors is in stock class. You basically have two stock motors to choose from... pretty easy to tech.
I guess I'm confused... according to the ROAR announcements ( http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=87314 ) 19t rules state that the arms can be hand wound and are no more then a limited modified class in oval. I guess the problem is that there are two sets of 19t ROAR rules depending on what class you run.
Also, since you say hand wound stock motors were legal, then why hasn't any manufacturer submitted one to ROAR for approval? Not trying to be difficult, just looking for some explination from the common understanding of ROAR rules.
I guess I'm confused... according to the ROAR announcements ( http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=87314 ) 19t rules state that the arms can be hand wound and are no more then a limited modified class in oval. I guess the problem is that there are two sets of 19t ROAR rules depending on what class you run.
Also, since you say hand wound stock motors were legal, then why hasn't any manufacturer submitted one to ROAR for approval? Not trying to be difficult, just looking for some explination from the common understanding of ROAR rules.
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying about the teching the motors.....if you handout the motor, its VERY easy to tech....as it will just be ONE motor, which can have a sample laid out to compare against. In an open non-handout race(which is what I was refering to in my comment) you have MANY possible motors....Peak/Orion stock, Trinity p2k, p2k2, monster, binary, green machine, new Epic Roar, reedy MVP....not to mention a quite of a few other stocks still on the approved motor list. A guy teching a race like this would have to be very familiar with all the possible motors that could be encountered....at the nats, the 10th Pan car class was bring your own stock....I saw at least 5 different stocks being used....and that was a whompin 15 cars or so....
You wouldn't have to submit it as HANDWOUND.....read the rules, tell me where it says they much be machine wound. Motors are approved basically as teardowns, then the rest of the rules are applied. The simple fact why they do not handwind stocks is the cost.....not very cost effective with a $40 price cap, that really needs to be able to hit a street price of less than $35....and just for the record, I was quite suprised when I noticed the ommission of the machine wound language for stock motors, as I was always under the impression that was a rule since I was a kid....
If you read the 19t non-oval rules (no offense, but oval is very small percentage of who actually race 19t)....it specifically says they must be machine wound.....and 19t is turning into a major handout race....the last 4 big onroad races had 19t handouts....its basically just a super stock class for non-oval.
Later EddieO
You wouldn't have to submit it as HANDWOUND.....read the rules, tell me where it says they much be machine wound. Motors are approved basically as teardowns, then the rest of the rules are applied. The simple fact why they do not handwind stocks is the cost.....not very cost effective with a $40 price cap, that really needs to be able to hit a street price of less than $35....and just for the record, I was quite suprised when I noticed the ommission of the machine wound language for stock motors, as I was always under the impression that was a rule since I was a kid....
If you read the 19t non-oval rules (no offense, but oval is very small percentage of who actually race 19t)....it specifically says they must be machine wound.....and 19t is turning into a major handout race....the last 4 big onroad races had 19t handouts....its basically just a super stock class for non-oval.
Later EddieO
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