Quote form “The making of the Trek Films”, Edward Gross, 1992 Image Publishing, page 66 on the subject of Refit model for TWOK:

(Ken)Ralston decided to dull the finish down and add a little detail to the surface. “The ship won’t look any different on the screen…The iridescence still works, but having a little relief on the surface made things easier on us. We didn’t have to horse around with the lighting to get rid of the gloss”

So ILM did not completely repaint her for TWOK.
They did apply a dull coat to reduce light reflection and added some little details (probably some of those small rectangles you can see at the strong back). But the original color scheme/ paint job of TMP remained!

The “repainting” took place prior to filming the FX for ST IV: TVH. Due to the damage caused by the “battle damage” stickers from TWOK + TSFS which ripped off part of the paint job when ILM tried to remove them. They repainted most of the forward section of the strong back pattern while the pattern near the pylon remained almost unchanged.

I made a comparison of the two patters here:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=25750
Although the light conditions are different you can clearly see the original pattern at the top picture and the ENT-A version on the bottom pictures. The original “engineering green” is also visible in the top one. There have been some new pictures floating around where the blue grey of the Ent-A appear to be green too…but this is due to the flash used. Under certain light conditions blue grey can appear green due to the wavelength proximity of “real” green to blue.

 

I guess the question is who is right ? It doesn't matter to me if I am right for the sake of being right, but the definitive proof for either or.

Omnimodel brought up a good topic on Thomas Models that the Aztec pattern on at least the engineering sections and warp pylons were changed. The 'Aztec Rectangles' of the TMP version were much larger per section. As she appears in half the shots in WOK and all of TSFS, the engineering section and pylons are covered in very tiny rectangles.

Also Omnimodel pointed out both the Enterprise and Reliant were painted shades of blue so they would appear gray on screen (producer Harve Bennet wanted to pay homage to the TOS ship...) The actual studio color used looks like intermediate blue mixed with either white or light gray.

 

So ILM did not completely repaint her for TWOK.
They did apply a dull coat to reduce light reflection and added some little details (probably some of those small rectangles you can see at the strong back). But the original color scheme/ paint job of TMP remained!
.

I agree entirely with your assessment, and the recent green pics that have appeared are just a lighting aberation.

As for the secondary hull 'squares' from ST2/3, looks like a lot of fine pen or scribing work - must be the the same ones that tempted AMT into changing the 'smoothie' moulds.

Some of us are trying to model the ST TWOK version by the way (essentially this means for me - STTMP with weathering, a grey/brown cast to reflect how she looks on the celluloid, and the pearl Aztec stays but gets knocked back somewhat). It is going to take a lot of nerve to add the battledamage; here's an ST6 AMT/ERTL I did many years ago:

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/509/medium/STVIEnt_copy3.JPG

 

My eyes tell me that the secondary hull was repainted or scribed, while the rest of the ship was just dullcoated.

But they're lied to me before.

 

My eyes tell me that the secondary hull was repainted or scribed, while the rest of the ship was just dullcoated.

But they're lied to me before.

Actually, IIRC it was faint pencil lines drawn in on the starboard secondary hull, most visible in the shot where the E pulls up to Regula 1 (and no, that's not the wax model used in that shot).

 

Yep, faint pencil lines on the non-wax miniature -- I concur.

 

My eyes tell me that the secondary hull was repainted or scribed, while the rest of the ship was just dullcoated.

But they're lied to me before.

I did some freezframing on the WOK and TSFS DVDs last night, and there's evidence to support this. There's a shot as the ship is approaching Genesis that the lighting hits the bottom of the secondary hull, and the original Aztecing on that section briefly pops into view. Also, when the ship is hit by the Klingon torpedo, there are flashes and the nacelle looks very white... but this may have just been a trick of the light.

However, I am fairly certain that the engineering section and at least the underside of the pylons had their Aztec patterns changed. Also, in the first shot of the Enterprise in TSFS, you can see what would appear to be stickers on the engineering hull to greeble it up a little more (you know ILM just hates smooth surfaces...)

In a way, these types of debates are why I usually paint to approximate screen appearance. To me, a model should evoke the memory of what people saw on screen, as well as how the ship was actually supposed to appear. For example, ask the average TNG viewer what color the Enterprise D is and they'll most likely tell you gray, not the duck egg blue of the studio model. For that matter, what about something like the NX-01, that has no physical studio model?

Since an ERTL kit was actually used in TSFS, I've decided to build my last 1/537 kit as this version. The paint scheme I'll be using is based on the 2 shots that show a gray paint job and strongback, with blue green plasma covers and leading edges. The first shot is right after Khans initial retreat, the second shot is when the Enterprise is pulling into spacedock and we see a close up of all the battle damage.
On the actual ERTL kit in the film, it looks like the strongback area was just painted a solid blue but I might be wrong (for those of you with HDTV and an upconverting DVD player, see the shot of the Enterprise approaching spacedock. You can tell it's the ERTL kit by the impulse deck...)

Well, hope this helps with your build.

 

Lot's of good thoughts here, still one question remains. Apparently either Paul Newitt and Bill George are dead wrong, OR Edward Goss and Ken Ralston is wrong.

Unless there are further sources, it's one idea v.s. the other. At least we are all on agreement that lines were penciled in as many sources confirm this.

And if the Paul Newitt article is wrong and Bill George from ILM then Don Matthy's article on Cult TVman should be taken down. I'm going to ask Thomas and see what he knows about this. I've heard reports for ST III that the ship was dulled, but I'm not ready to hang the towell for Trek II yet, this topic needs more facts to back up either the dulled pearl or the blue tinted white aztec.

 

Is there any more evidence out there aside from Garbaron's article and mine, appreciate your feedback guys. Philosophy has taught me that what you believed to be a given is not necesarily reality, even the unquestionable must be questioned in the search for truth.

Let me point out that Thomas himself confessed to us that the strongback was NOT indeed the colors you long may have believed they were, this is were he corrected Jeff Bond's idea that the studio model was painted green while it has never changed since ST VI and the fuss that all started, even I was on that crazy bandwagon :freak:

"Guys,

That guy does not own or have the studio models. Those images were shot several years ago when both of those models (and others) were delivered, and uncrated for inspection and reference for the Foundation Imaging team when the Director's Cut of STTMP was being produced. After they were done with it, all models were recrated and delivered back to a Paramount warehouse.

The paint job you are seeing in those photos is of the Trek 6 version. Nobody repainted it after the movies were shot and no one has it in their private collection.

This stuff is kinda old news. I don't know where these model guys are coming up with the model being painted in blues. It wasn't. The TMP version had bluer greens all over it but the model in those and the hundreds of other unpublished shots show her as she appeared after Trek 6 FX wrapped."

Blue green strongback !!

 

Andrew Probert posted on Starshipmodeler a couple of months ago and gave us a color code for the TMP strongback "engineering green" - I don't recall it being blue-green. Although that post has now disappeared from Starshipmodeler, you can get a feel for the color by looking at the painting he did of the refit in the early 80's...

http://probertdesigns.com/Folder_STORE/Folder_PRINTS/Past_ReflectionsPAGE.html

As for the discussion on the refit being repainted before ST:IV, Thomas posted this on his board:

"The 'completely repainted' guess is incorrect. Areas were patched and sections repainted, but it does not appear that the entire model was repainted..."

This is consistent with what has been shared on this board and others. Someone please correct me if I get it wrong, or add to what I've got below...

ST:II -The refit aztek was 'dulled'. Pencil lines were added on the secondary hull. Damage effects were added to the model - some of which were decals or stickers. A wax model of the dorsal and engineering section was created which had strongback and deflector colors and patterns that didn't match the primary model.

ST:III - The refit had damage repair 'plating' added. Additional damage was added as well. An Ertl refit model appears in the approach to spacedock, arrival at Genesis and self-destruct scenes. The wax model reappears for the closeup shot of torpedoes being fired. Enlarged sections of the primary hull were created to be melted and blown up for the self-destruct scene.

ST:IV: - Some sections of the model were repainted as the damage added during ST:II and ST:III was left on the model and caused damage to the underlying paint job. The strongback and deflector housing areas were completely repainted. A new torpedo exaust part was manufactured. The 'bolts' on the deflector housing also had to be hastily re-made after the originals were lost. One scene shows them missing. The scene in orbit shows the replacements (their only appearance as they were replaced with parts similar to the originals for the next film). The replacement starboard armature cover makes its first appearance, and we lose several windows in that area. New markings are added to the underside of the model as an homage to the TOS Enterprise.

ST:V - Here's where it gets fuzzy. The rumor is that around this time, the model was loaned out to a production house that was doing opticals for the Star Trek ride at Universal Studios(?) and apparently they repainted an entire side of the model grey. The production house that did the special effects for ST:V had to fix that by removing the grey paint. Also, apparently the model required some rewiring at this point. The movie also sports a large section of the tail and hangar bay that doesn't have the same shape/dimensions as the refit model.

ST:VI - I'm not sure what, if anything was done to the model for ST:VI. I believe the model of the dorsal and torpedo deck makes another appearance at the end of the film. We also know now due to the Christie's auction, that an Ertl model was used.

Now, there is another model of the refit that exists and was seen in the TNG episode "Best of Both Worlds II". Pics of it can be found here:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359/enterprise-trashed.jpg
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359/enterprise-trashed_saucer.jpg

I assume this was also manufactured for the self-destruct scene in ST:III, but I'm not sure what it's history is. It's strongback and deflector areas don't appear to be detailed.

 

Hello Krako,

Thank you for your wisdom and for posting here. Just to note, in the same thread that Thomas posted that the ship was not completely repainted was for Star Trek III specifically, not II.

Also in that very thread he said and I quote,

"Guys,

That guy does not own or have the studio models. Those images were shot several years ago when both of those models (and others) were delivered, and uncrated for inspection and reference for the Foundation Imaging team when the Director's Cut of STTMP was being produced. After they were done with it, all models were recrated and delivered back to a Paramount warehouse.

The paint job you are seeing in those photos is of the Trek 6 version. Nobody repainted it after the movies were shot and no one has it in their private collection.

This stuff is kinda old news. I don't know where these model guys are coming up with the model being painted in blues. It wasn't. The TMP version had bluer greens all over it but the model in those and the hundreds of other unpublished shots show her as she appeared after Trek 6 FX wrapped."

Would be great if Thomas could chime in here, I had mentioned in that very thread how I thought your strongback was what I believed to be correct, also Thomas Johnson noted that he was unaware of the blue green, we'll have to ask Thomas about this further.

 

I don't believe that this is something that can be answered via a poll. A consensus will not reveal the answer you are looking for as to how many votes are in favor of one questionable quote or another.

Best to ask those who were directly involved.

 

Hi Trek Ace,

You are quite right of course, to be truthfull I only used the poll to see where people were at in their thinking, not so much as majority wins and the lesser loses.

Good advice, I just contacted both Andrew Probert AND ILM, I'd be most gratefull for their assistance.

I asked about ST II AND ST III Enterprises.

 

I got word from Andrew Probert, still waiting for his second reply.

In Don Matthy's article he notes that the reliant was painted the same colors as the 2nd paint job of the Enterprise ( Wrath of khan )

Here are some color photos of the studio model as she appeared as Saratoga . Looks blue tinted white and blue light grey to me, check these out.

http://www.starfleetmodeler.com/Starships/Miranda%20Class/

http://www.starfleetmodeler.com/Starships/Miranda%20Class%20III/images/saratoga_20.jpg

http://www.starfleetmodeler.com/Starships/Miranda%20Class%20III/images/saratoga_21.jpg

 

Got word from Don Matthys and he informed me that his article " Building the Refit Enterprise" is NOT correct for painting a Star Trek II or Star Trek III Enterprise. So do not follow his paint guide folks, the info is not accurate.

Also Thomas informed us yesterday that the Enterprise was NOT "completely" repainted after TMP.

So there you have it, to paint an accurate version for the Enterprise for TWOK and TSFS the Enterprise must be painted in the pearls and then dullcoated.

As was mentioned by the members of this forum and at ThomasModels, for ST II and III the Enterprise had those various lines added. Thomas did say there WERE sections repainted for Star Trek III specifically and battledamage and patchwork was added, but deffinetly not the entire model.

As Thomas Johnson pointed out the saucer is the same finsish as TMP, so this couldn't have been it. However, the secondary hull deserves more research, omnimodel's observations about the secondary hull in particular and the photos on Cloudster appear show differances from TMP - TSFS.

A question for those that know, what effect does the dullcoat produce on the 4 color pearl scheme, does it make the colors look differant ?

Also Trevanian pointed out to me that for ST III there was more dullcoating done after the previous dullcoating from TWOK, what further effect would this have on the model ?

I really appreciate everyones thought and insight, it would be really nice if the collective knowledge could prodice an accurate paint guide which could be posted at Cult TVman for posterity, very greatful for everyones help.

 

Got word from Don Matthys and he informed me that his article " Building the Refit Enterprise" is NOT correct for painting a Star Trek II or Star Trek III Enterprise. So do not follow his paint guide folks, the info is not accurate.

Whoooa! Total misquote Sargon/Ceaser...Never said such a thing in my message.

So here it is for all to misinterpit as they wish:


Let's just assume the "greens" stayed on the vessle untill its self desruct in ST:III. What ever blue grays showed up on the recommissioned NCC-1701-A at the end of ST:IV

So I buildt the "-A"

The info I got on that subject matter was from Garret Parsons who was pretty hot stuff back in the emerging www days when info was a lot more scarse. And that info is well over a decade old.

So do not bother to quote me as "gospel" on the TMP to ST:III color issues. After all it was only a movie!
_________________
Don Matthys
dba Don's Light and Magic
www.DLMparts.com
don@dlmparts.com
Make it Glow!

End quote-

Now need I continue in my SNL sketch "Shatner at ST Cons" mode?

DLM

 

Don,

Thomas already informed us that the ship was not completely repainted after TMP, so this pretty much tells us your guide was wrong. If it can't be relied on, need I say more ?

It's nothing personal. Tt WAS very nice of you to put out a paint guide to accuratly paint the refit back in the 90's, nobody else bothered. Kudos to you.

I wasn't quoting you verbata, but with Thomas' confirmation that the Enterprise was not completely repainted after TMP and your admission that it's only a movie and your data cannot be relied, one can only conclude that of the two schools of thought that the E was repainted totally or dulled down only; that your info is not correct and this paint guide cannot be followed.

It's no bigee, not the end of the world. But some of us like to paint our models correctly.

What if I built a period tall ship of Baroque era and left out the guilded carvings, it takes away from the model. What if the US Navy ships of WWII were painted neon purple, while they were always grey, blue grey and in the case of late era WWII Japanese grey green on post 1944 Japanese ships ?

For some that's OK, no problem here. But for the avid modeler it is important to know which sources are valid and which are not if the aim is to produce an accurate replica.

Do you see what I'm getting at, it's not obsession as I have alot of hobbies, ships, planes, spaceships and trains to name a few. I hope there are those who can appreciate where I am comming from.

I wonder if things were switched around by a cruel trick of fate and we had loads of color photos of TMP-TSFS refit instead of the NCC-1701-A how many people would be doing exactly like I am.

I did appreciate very much your contact Don, you have helped me on my quest to paint a more accurate ship for Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock by your admission, now we know it was not the blue tinted white/ light blue grey sheme.

Thank you very much Don.

 

Tt WAS very nice of you to put out a paint guide to accuratly paint the refit back in the 90's, nobody else bothered. Kudos to you.

Then by the grace of the gods go you.

Refit modelers back then had just less than a couple dozen images back then to work with. Mostly a handfull of picture posted by Jeff Brown on the cultTV site. Scale wise it is more relevant to paint the PL kit's 1/350 closer to studio model more so than the AMT 1/530. Most of which colors were picked from Newitt's Assembly Manual #4.

We all know better since... Wiser and talented men have since researched the heck out of it and contracted by PL to design a kit at 1/350 scale. A much bigger and better canvas to work with.

DLM

 

Thank you Don, you are a kind soul. Very greatful for your help and guidance.