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If the idea is to create a class for novice so they learn throtle control, why not just make a gear selection that make you do just that? I'm thinking that some testing would have to be done, but if you run at a track that sportsman run like 14/78 or there abouts, have the novice class run 15/75 or something like that without killing the motor.

You still have to get the car to handle but they won't be able to go that deep in the corner and it'll make you bogg down comming off the corner. That would make it less likley that you would spin out.

Really I think Chance has the better idea with spoiler and weight. I'd leave GN and truck alone, and probably sportsman too. They do just fine...

Something else that could work, is make a class that uses tires that are a maximum width of 2 1/2 inches all the way around. Again, would have to test that one out.

If you wanted to go the other way, make a class that the right side tires have to be 4 inches and the left side 3. More testing.... I know....
 

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No wounder no one wants to get in racing change the dam rules ever year, buy more junk that you can clutter your garage with 8.5 carb, old 8.5 restricker the thin one, 9mm carb what next.
 

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Every year it's the same old song. Make a change to sportsman and/or truck to herd racers into the GN class. Or kill the sportsman and/or truck class and have only one car class which is just another way to herd racers into GN.

The song sux. Race what we have, promote the crap out of it and hope for the best.
 

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Sorry brent your thread is headed to the can typical bench racers win out everytime on these threads but the ones that actually go to races don't ever have the right to have a say in the direction they would like to see
 

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Personally I don’t think adding a few pounds of weight will accomplish much. You may increase the overall lap times by a tenth or two but you will now have a heavier car going at about the same speed. When this car contact a wall or another competitor it will likely only increase the amount of damage.

IMO larger spoiler will only allow you to drive a car deeper into the corner. Once again increasing corner speed. In addition it would make the cars look less scale appealing than they already are.

Somewhere over the last 15-20 years in the search for speed we have allowed these cars to get away from what originaly made them appealing. The SCALE appearance. Honestly take a look at some of the photos form the early 90’s and compare them to what we race now. We have lost the curb appeal.

I know some would argue the main problem is that 1/4 scale cars are just too expensive these days. I guess my counter argument would be if that was the case explain how the similar priced HPI Baja 1/5 scales have sold so well the last few years.
 

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As for this thread there is nothing wrong with it providing you stay within the guidelines that Brent outlined in the first post.

This thread is NOT about QSAC rules changes for 2010.
It’s more a hypothetical question about the future. What do you think would be a good class structure and why?

We all want to improve ¼ scale racing and watch it grow. A good thought provoking discussion can only help.
 

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Omg

First off a little history if I remeber correctly. Sportsman was never intended as a beguinner class. Sportsman class was introduced due to a mandated engine change. When QSAC was forced to change motors they were phased in by class. Grand national was the first cleass to run the newer more powerful motor. Those that did not want to invest in a new motor could run the now called sportsman class. over the years we have all been allocated to run the same motor. The smaller carbs and plates were a way to seperate the two stock car classes.
There are very easy solutions to the classes being so close in performance. It will be very easy to seperate the two stock car classes.
First off leave the grand national class alone. A larger carb for the class is the wrong way to go for as Brent said "tire management will be at a premium". Less experienced racers will soon give up on the class and fall back to sportsman.
Sportsman. These are a mix of my ideas and Randy Bakers. We have discussed these issues in the past. Stay with the 8.5 plate, it works well. Stay with the stock clutch shoes as this also works well. Now, remove the independent suspension and run a straight axle rear end. DO NOT say it won't handle and it won't work. I know better as I started out with a straight axle stock car and they worked. Next go back to the two inch spoiler we used to run. No, it will not go threw the corners as well with out the 3 inch spoiler. Put the driver back in the car and I'm not talking about the little plastic guy. When you get your sportsman car where it will run in the top of the class then, maybe you are ready to run Grand National. Also you could mandate the harder right front tire the 66 or B compounds.
Novice class or limited sportsman. Most of the changes suggested for sportsman will work very well in limited sportsman as well.:wave:
 

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Omg 2

Sonny:
I agree with you in that we have lost curb appeal. I think we should have all caged stock cars with solid axles and driver figuers in every car. After all what class of stock cars run I.R.S. rear ends? How many stock cars do you see with a limited amout of frame members?

Jim:
As for narrower tires they would just over run them, over heat them and blow them up. Then they would complain about junk tires.:wave:
 

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What do you think about the different tire widths idea?
As far as the narrow tire I think it would depend how it is done. If you only did it up front on the Novice and Sportsman car I suspect it would tighten the up and make the pretty drivable. If you did it all the way around I’m afraid it would take away to much rear grip. I think within reason you need to make the cars drive a little on the tight side and with a lot of rear bite for newer drivers.


Now for the experienced GN guys a narrower tire would put a premium on throttle control. That could be good thing for racing . I fear the downside would be that we would probably kill more tires with the power we have now and the cars being a little on the free side.
 

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Yeah, it's all good.

IMO, the class rules and structure are good. To change them would only undermine what the last 4 to 5 years of officials have been able to accomplish. And yes, we know nothing changes here as far as rules go. But man, if they did....:freak:


As for this thread there is nothing wrong with it providing you stay within the guidelines that Brent outlined in the first post.

This thread is NOT about QSAC rules changes for 2010.
It’s more a hypothetical question about the future. What do you think would be a good class structure and why?

We all want to improve ¼ scale racing and watch it grow. A good thought provoking discussion can only help.
 

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I agree with you in that we have lost curb appeal. I think we should have all caged stock cars with solid axles and driver figuers in every car. After all what class of stock cars run I.R.S. rear ends? How many stock cars do you see with a limited amout of frame members?


I’m not real sure how to fix the looks of the stock cars. We are kind of at the mercy of the current bodies that are available.


For the Sprint cars I have an idea I’m working on for a possible trial in 2011. (if racers agree) I call it Speed and Scale. It’s kind of based off what they do with R/C Unlimited Hydros and Giant Scale aircraft competitions.

The simple version of the idea would be that you would get a combined score for the weekend. First score is based on your race performance just like we do now. A set point total for each position.

The second score would be based on a detailed concourse judging. 3 judges each evaluate a car based on a set criteria. The three judges scores are averaged and this added to the race score.

You could still give awards for the race winner as we currently do. Then you would also have an award for the overall winner. The goal over time would be to make the overall win more prestigious than just the race or concourse win.
 

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Sounds interesting but a drawn out process and time consuming for a local race. Would work on the NCS level though. Trouble is getting three non bias judges at each race.
:wave:
 

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Personally I don’t think adding a few pounds of weight will accomplish much. You may increase the overall lap times by a tenth or two but you will now have a heavier car going at about the same speed. When this car contact a wall or another competitor it will likely only increase the amount of damage.

IMO larger spoiler will only allow you to drive a car deeper into the corner. Once again increasing corner speed. In addition it would make the cars look less scale appealing than they already are.

Somewhere over the last 15-20 years in the search for speed we have allowed these cars to get away from what originaly made them appealing. The SCALE appearance. Honestly take a look at some of the photos form the early 90’s and compare them to what we race now. We have lost the curb appeal.




I know some would argue the main problem is that 1/4 scale cars are just too expensive these days. I guess my counter argument would be if that was the case explain how the similar priced HPI Baja 1/5 scales have sold so well the last few years.
It was my understanding that you were throwing an idea out there to make the cars handle better, correct? One thing I dont want to see is the cars slowed down more, only because that class is already about momentum and if you slow them down, people wont lift because they dont want to lose momentum. This will most likely create a lot of dive bombing. That being said, IMO the best course of action would be to make them handle better without slowing them down much if at all. If you believe that adding 4lbs would make the cars .2 faster per lap, why wouldnt they already be doing it? We did do that for quite a while locally, but went away from it because we have a high speed track and as you said can add to the damage. However at the end of the day, it did help the car handle quite a bit better. The spoiler thing has no downside other than losing more scale appearance. At the end of the day we are both talking about making them handle better. I however dont think having a really heavy LR spring will make any car handle much better. If you are looking to do something about the excessive weight transfer under counter steer, you can accomplish the same thing by taking right steering out of the car :thumbsup:. I think it is good to get some creative thinking going like this!
 

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It was my understanding that you were throwing an idea out there to make the cars handle better, correct? One thing I dont want to see is the cars slowed down more, only because that class is already about momentum and if you slow them down, people wont lift because they dont want to lose momentum. This will most likely create a lot of dive bombing. That being said, IMO the best course of action would be to make them handle better without slowing them down much if at all. If you believe that adding 4lbs would make the cars .2 faster per lap, why wouldnt they already be doing it? We did do that for quite a while locally, but went away from it because we have a high speed track and as you said can add to the damage. However at the end of the day, it did help the car handle quite a bit better. The spoiler thing has no downside other than losing more scale appearance. At the end of the day we are both talking about making them handle better. I however dont think having a really heavy LR spring will make any car handle much better. If you are looking to do something about the excessive weight transfer under counter steer, you can accomplish the same thing by taking right steering out of the car :thumbsup:. I think it is good to get some creative thinking going like this!

I think misconception is to slow cars down you need to rob them of horsepower. They have done that with 1/10 scale cars for years. Smaller batteries higher wind motors ect. But even with the loss of power overall lap times decrease every year because we have mechanically gained more grip. Net result is that we have cars that we can basically hold wide open all the way around. It puts a premium on chassis set up and takes the driver out of the equation. Kind of like watching the World of Outlaws on a heavy track. Everyone is wide open running about the same speed and no one can pass. It all momentum. Personally I think that why 1/10 scale pan car racing is much smaller than 10 years ago. You can almost apply the same though process to ¼ scale.

I think you are better off to find a way to take corner speed away instead of reducing horsepower with a smaller restrictor. So the question is how do you do that . I say one of two ways. You tighten them up to the point your forced to lift. Or you take grip away be it mechanical or areo.

For a less experienced racer I would say they are far better off driving a tighter car. It teachs them to lift out of throttle early and roll the center of the corner. The cars are more controllable, less frustrating to drive, and although most won’t admit to it less embarrassing. Knowbody wants to start racing and be that new guy that spins out all the time.

Now if we were talking about more experienced racers say in the GN class it’s a different ball game. You take grip or areo away in order to make them back up the corner. The difference is these cars have more power so a smooth throttle finger is important. The driver makes a difference. Basically the more you make them lift the better the racing should be as it opens up more passing opportunities.

Don’t get me wrong I think the GN class is about where it needs to be right now (with the exception of car counts). It seems to me that the Truck and Sportsman classes are a little miss-aligned in terms of offering a good class progression system.
 

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Sounds interesting but a drawn out process and time consuming for a local race. Would work on the NCS level though. Trouble is getting three non bias judges at each race.
:wave:
Thinking more for major events, not local.

As for the judges I think we could find a way to make it work.
 

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This could be real simple... Why don't we limit the RPM's of the motor for each class. Say 10,000 RPM for sportsman ,Trucks 11,000. G/N 13,000. as a example. They would be teched before and after each run, as to not adjust the radio. Todd Bishop
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Todd, are you suggesting a rev limiter or are you mandating tachs that would be looked at after each run? Interesting.

How hard(no pun intended) to come up with a harder tire than the 66? This would definately get the push in the car. Maybe both fronts?
 
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