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'oval jockeys going back to six cell'

I too have not paid much attention to the brushless systems out there... Do any of them even work at 4.8 volts? If there are some that do, are they potentialy ROAR legal?
 
The brushless motors are just starting out. They are new and need a lot of on track testing and refinement. I'd bet you see a several different motors by each manufacturer. If you think brushed is going to last, your going to be mistaken. Brushed will end up a low end "RTR" and racing will move to brushless. The thing will be not do you have a lot of high dollar tools to work on motors, but can you program it well. I think the greatest pressure to go to this will be TCO (total cost of ownership). With no brushes, com cutting, little or no motor cleaner, brush tools, etc., you sure can see its cheep to go brushless. This puts it more on driving than $ in the pits. That will usually equate to more racers at the track, a good thing.
 
ROAR 2004 addendum
Brushless Electric
Note 2 / Note 3
"An inductance reading is very easily obtained from a Brushless Motor without unsoldering or taking the motor out of the car."

What exactly is the range that it's supposed to read? I've seen two iterations of this rule and neither has mentioned a value.
 
I will admit I am clueless when it comes to brushless systems.
If another brushless motor comes out will you need another ESC to go with it?

I know in oval we pretty much average a different set of motors each year and usually need to buy a bunch to have a good select few.
Will brushless be the same way, motor of the month? cause if so that could get real expensive with the current prices?
 
Discussion starter · #27 · (Edited)
The wiring specs should eliminate the need to buy matched sets of motors/ESCs. I suppose as with anything there will be improvements along the way. A brushless motor is about $80.00, a brushed mod motor is about $60.00. Now add in the brushes you have to change every couple runs, the brush springs, the comm lathe, the dyno, etc. and you can see that brushless is no more expensive.

If a new motor comes out, the old brushless is almost "in new" condition and you should be able to easily sell it for half price ($40.00) to some backyard basher or someone that doesn't need the latest and greatest to race with. How much are well used brushed mod motors worth... if you can even sell them?

Also, runtime should be less critical as you can easily get 7 minutes out of brushless "mod" motor.
 
Danny B said:
I've said it before, i don't like the concept of brushless. Who wants to run with everyone having an equal motor. I take much more pride in tweaking a motor to run better than the next guy. Plus with the current brushless technology(i am pretty sheltered on what is really out there) it sounds like we are going to run 10t mod brushless motors?? Guess us oval Jockey's will have to go back to 6 cell!!

If the day comes when i have to run brushless, i'll probably watch the R/C world from the seat of a go-kart or something.

Say it ain't so!

Danny B.
Unfortunately, this is the attitude I've come to expect from today's crop of oval racers (but not from Danny, who is widely regarded as a great driver :confused: ). It's also the reason I've quit racing pan car oval. It seems that oval racers WANT to spend hours working on motors and tuning the chassis, with the race result much more dependent on what you do with the wrenches than with the transmitter.

Back when pan cars ran 6 cells, a 10-turn was considered a fast motor, and you had to actually let off the throttle in the turns. Today, most of the oval racers in Michigan run either 19-turn or stock, with the trigger planted all the way around on all but the smallest tracks. Running a 10-turn would be a big improvement.
 
it's all speculation..but i would bet with the advent of brushless motors will come a whole new set of ways we would tune our motors..at least in oval anyways...

for one..a brushless motor is tuneable..via a computer..wonder how many ways there are to hack a brushless motor to make it run like a 6 turn? what values can you tweak? will the pro's have access to such knowledge?

if you think the brushless motor will perform like new after 15 runs on a oval i think you may be wrong? i think there will still be many ways to tweak these things...like i said as soon as trinity has a full color add in carhaction brushless still rides in the back seat. i'm willing to bet though that brushless motors will be just as easy to tune or cheat with as a brushed motor. and i'm willing to bet the oval heads would find ways to make them run faster and would also find they run better with some kind of maitenance as well? when a brushless system wins mod at the birds we all know it is here..otherwise hobby bobby and his monster truck will be the consumer for these things..your gonna have to beat me in mod with one before i go buy one...speaking as a oval racer...but i'm not gonna say i will never use one..nor will i say in the future we may all be using one..so far i'm not blown away with any of the current brushless motors.. besides i own a lathe,dyno and brushes now..i also own a keyence speedo or three..i guess they all just get thrown away? ouch
 
I'm deffintely in agreement with Kat's opion that along with brushless motors will come new ways to tweak motors... this time it will be done with software, and in the begining ONLY the factory guys will have access to the tweaks... Over time tweaks will become part of the package and/or available to the masses. Maybe there will always be some tweaks only available to those that have inside or excpetional knowlege of how the stuff works... at the very minimum, the guy who learns the most how to take advantage of the tweaking will go faster then the next guy...

In my opion brushless should never be thought of a equalizer of any sort. There may be less maintaince and other bennifits, but I don't buy the argument that it will somehow even the playing feild as far as motors are concerned...

Quite frankly... I'd love to have a brushless system, and a slick computer program that allowed me to tweak every single parameter there is to tweak... and maybe even allow you to create your own tweaks... I'm a nerd by nature, and I love tweaking things wether or not it's tweaking brush hoods or software parameters, makes no differiance to me...
 
all you guys still have to remember that you must be able to drive that brushless motor. meaning car setup!
i have seen brushless motors in off road. i have had a better handling car and beat them. i also think that there will be tracks that the motor wont respond to as well as a brushed motor, where as you can tune the brushed motor the brushless you cant.
i am no where ready to start with brushless. orion has made big advancment with there v2 motors and the duration between rebuilds.
 
First off, i was a little frank with my comments about brushless. The top drivers will always be the last to fold when it comes to something like this. Look how long it took 4-cell oval racing to be recognized nation wide! Much like 4-cell this isn't going to happen over night and it will definately happen in on-road and off-road first.

My biggest concern is what happens to the smaller motor companies that have families and such to feed? Fantom, Putnam, Kisbey, KC etc etc. Trinity and Reedy have enough revenue from other areas to survive and the means to have their own brushless systems if they wanted to do it. What about the little guys???

Whenever i get to see a big on-road or off-road race it doesn't really look like Blackstock or Kinwald just sit around between rounds BS'ing. They work their butts off. Probably do more maintenance work for one round on a TC or off-roader than I do all day on an oval car.

Another concern...say we are at the snowbirds, anyone who's anyone is there. we're all running brushless(putting aside possible tweaks) we all have pretty equal motors. The top group of guys is going to have their cars dialed and everyone can flat out wheel at a race like that. So whats missing from the equation?? BATTERIES!!!

From what i've heard the efficency of brushless runtime issues would be down next to not a problem, so to make the motor run faster the only way is add voltage! Well, they'll probably make all races longer which should bring runtime back into the equation but since we can't really turn up the juice...yet...the most voltage and runtime will have an advantage! Bust out the 1400's BATTERY WARS are back!!!

I just want to see that the positives and the negatives are counted. I like the way cars are run now. Batteries are fairly equal and at least around me car counts have been going up. What's good for the goose may not be good for the gander!
 
Strikes me as the same wars, new things to fight over. Some mod motors run better than others, whos to say it wont be the same with BL? Will we have companies specially winding a BL motor? And if you want to run the new "Novak 8x2 BL", you have to buy the whole motor not just an arm. And from the looks of it, a BL motor is more expensive than a new arm.

And then there are gonna be all the same things that we have for brushed motors...magnets will still need zapping? If they really do make incredible power, will something we havent thought of wear out? Maybe the controller overheats and blows up when you run a 3:1 final drive in your TC "because I can".

Too much of an unknown for my taste
 
There are indeed good points and bad points to everything. As Danny pointed out some of the first people to be effected by this are the people who make their living building and tuning brushed motors. I feel for them... however the same type of thing happens in the rest of the world, some things become obsolete, and people need to change to accomidate the changes thrust opon them. It's not always fun, and some people will deffintely loose out. I'm not sure it's ROAR's obligation to keep things like this from happening however.

One interesting thing I've heard a little about... Big Jim claims that brushed motors could be just as effcient and/or powerfull as a bushless motor if things such as exotic magnets and 5 segment armatures were used in them...

In the end, I beleive it is/will be the market itself that determins if or when the brushed motors go away... as long as people still buy brushed motors, someone will sell them, and more then likely ROAR will continue to allow them....

I'll likely stay out of the brushless game untill at least half of the local drivers switch...

I beleive the brushless controlers will change more frequently then the motors themselves will... and I also predict that once the brushless gets going full swing, you will see frequent changes in controlers as various companys try to out do one another and try to get more of our $$$...
 
I put one in my TC3 "O" and love it!!! I hate all the maintenance that goes with a brushed MOD motor. Performance is on par with any vehicle on the track. NOW if the driver could just "BRUSH" up on his driving skills!! LOL!
 
Hi All,
It seems to me that everyone is starting to get on edge with this announcement. People are saying there are going to be so many more ways to cheat with brushless motors but I want to know just how many more ways are there to cheat with a brush motor set-up. Another question--just how are you going to change the programing in the speed control when there no where to plug it in? I suppose you could upgrade the components in the speed control but that is above my education level and i don't ever plan on trying it. I also believe that it will hurt the smaller companies like putnam and kisbey just to name a few but it will take time for this to develope into a cost effective situation with the current price of a NOVAK which is around $240 I believe. Around my local tracks i would say over 20-25 people have gone brushless and would never go back (I own two myself). My last point refers to the comment about how companies will release various speed controls trying out do their competition. Whats the difference between now and then? There are many companies that have an immense amount of speed controls that have become "absolete" do to competition. Take NOVAK for example how many speed controls do they have--fifteen different ones? My point is that it's the companies job to get their consumers money. I might be putting my foot in my mouth here but has there ever been any company that didn't want to make as much money as possible? I don't want to start any arguments about this as I am just stating what i think Later--Zack
 
lets see....cost....
Brushed:
1) Mod motor: $60 (if you only use one... yea... right)
2) Brushes for motor over life of motor: $12+
3) Lathe: $120+
4) Brush hood tool: $10
5) Motor spray, com sticks, oil, etc. : $15+++++++
6) ESP: $110+
Total: $327 (plus additional arms and parts you might need to get
the same life span as brushless.)
Brushless:
1) NOVAK: $240
2) cleaning materials $15+
Total: $255
The cost factor alone (yes, debate all you want on line item costs, the point is the same) will push brushless to the front of racing as its affordable to more racers. The top guys typically do not spend as much or are just running sponsors equipment. It’s the average guy out at his small local track and the back yard basher that pays the bucks to keep the manufacturers in the in the black.
 
Alot of the profromance and operational issues of a brushless system are controled by software. Software can always be changed... maybe not easly by the average person in some cases, but for those who do the programing at the factory, they certinly can make modifications and/or one off versions of the basic software. Some very knowleable outsiders could also modifiy the software with enough desire and effort.

Many modern forms of electronic equipment allow you to update the software realtively easily. Many modern forms of electronics actualy run a version of DOS, that is fairly easy for a average programer to edit. Take for instance the Canon Digital Rebel SLR camera... It sells for around $1000... The Canon 10D sells for about $1500 and has some features that the Rebel doesn't have... well you can find hacked versions of the Rebel software that allow you to make a Rebel proform very simmilar to the 10D... This can all be downloaded over the internet and then you can update your Rebel yourself... None of this is endorsed or even desireable to Canon... but hit happens and like pirated music... there isn't really any way to stop it...

Many DVD players are being hacked these days as well... people do all sorts of things to modern electronics, simply because a large portion of the functionality of the product is based on software.

Back to Brushless... I bet there are ways to modify the timing advance within the software... there probably are ways to make it adjustable depending on load, or other factors... Traction control or something resembling it is probably also entirely possible with only software changes. Braking force and maybe even anti-lock braking is also probably realtively easy to achive with software changes to a brushless system. I beleive it's just a matter of time before we see these things happen, either direct from the manufacture, or possibly direct from some hacker. (not the company named hacker)
 
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