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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Racers, As the Oval season is upon us the Brushless class is picking up speed, At first when the class was introduced I was against it naturally because of my SpeedJuice sales, but after hearing about the class from several of my friends I decided what the hell, and Allens R/C was my first race, I will say I had a Blast and can't wait till next years event comes around. NOW FOR THE DOWN SIDE! I started this thread because im very irritated and hopefully down the line things can change, This class was put together with the greatest intentions im sure, Charlie, Bob, and the entire team. No motor work, No timming to screw with just flat out door to door racing, WRONG!!!!! Now after the fact I realize this is becoming another can of worms!! Why on Gods green earth is there an adjustable timming ring on this motor????, And to throw a little more gas on the fire, Lets just come out with an additional BETTER Armature! So now you have a sealed maintance free brushless motor that you can rip a part and beef up AND adjust the timming on???????? I really thought this was going to be the answer to even racing, At the very least there should be a FIXED LOCKED endbell = NO ADJUSTMENT!!!! This goes for ANY brushless manufacture. Whats your opinion??? John Zubak
 

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My personal opinion, but I think a lot of people think that a brushless class will help even the playing field and tighten things up. Now this is just my personal opinion, but I think it will be just the opposite. From the majority of people I race with the difference is chassis and car maintenence, not motor or battery. I think that this class puts an even bigger emphasis on routine chassis maintenence, and being able to set-up a car, which will ultimately spread the field apart. The Brushed motors we have now arn't even using the batteries to their full potential, so the batteries in my opinion are not an issue. I don't care if they come out with a new battery every week, unless the motors change it will not make a noticable difference. I personally will never run brushless untill it is my only option, which will be a long time down the road, if ever.
 

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.....

lol... adjustable timing and aftermarket performance upgrades are stupid. thats just my opinion....the few brushless races i have been to the racing has been good, but there are still bad handling cars going fast becouse they are faster down the straights than others.....alot of people say setup means everything in brushless but i feel it means less than in a brushed car....these brushless cars roll thru the turn on there own becouse the lack of strong magnets. a brushed motor wants to stop when you lift off the throttle, i think its harder to get a brushed motor to roll free thru the turns than a brushless. all in all i think brushless has confused alot of people out there. racing is racing so i'll continue to race it but im not a big fan of it.
 

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Zubie: Brushless is so new that that can of worms hasn't been opened yet. Give the cheaters time to figure out the gray areas and they will do it..WIN AT ALL COSTS!! Sad but true.
 

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I think the replacement rotor deal is more for reliability than it is for performance. I have run with the replacement and the original and there isn't much if any difference in the performance. They made the new 13.5 motor with the better rotor and bearing for that very reason. I think they were trying to keep the cost down but it really bit the racers cause the quality of the bearing and rotor aren't that great and I have seen many go bad. I think the timing thing isn't a big deal either cause everyone can do it. I could teach an 8 year old how to turn it. It will not make racing any closer cause the handling and driving are what matters as far as that goes but I love it cause you don't have the motor work to do between rounds and you can work on your chassis more for handling and you also have more time to shoot the bull with your friends.

To each his own, I like it but have heard others say they won't run it but there isn't a good reason not to run it that I have heard yet.

Brushless is the best!
 

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I like the idea of just bolting in the motor and leaving it, working on the set-up and getting track time. That is mainly what we do in the nitro .09 series racing. I was hoping that if brushless caught on in the area it would be much the same for indoor racing. The more I here and find out about electric today the more I am glad I made the switch to nitro. I just finished a 10 race summer using one motor ($49.95 cost, plus cost for a reusable head and carb adaptor which made it about $85.00 total), no batteries, motors and speed controllers to up date.

But for the racers that want to run electric brushed and brushless I hope that these problems can be worked out, especially those looking to have the experience that brushless has promised. All motors and ESC being equal.

Larry Boyd
2006 RC-Oval.com .09 Nitro Limited Champion
 

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Frank hit the nail on the head about the bad handling cars being fast. They come back up to speed much quicker and no matter how you get through the corner if geared right they will run the same down the straights.
 

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Hey John, nice to hear from ya.
I am on the shelf as far as racing goes right now but before I left was thinking hard about trying to get a BL class going at Classic.

A couple of buddies went to the Arcor BL nats at SCH and told me about the front runners adding timing to their motors. Did it help them? Probably not, then again I Have no clue. I know Jamie Hanson won and his flat track program is always strong. But it always puts doubt into a racers mind when somebody figures out something that 3/4ths the field does not know about.

I guess I always thought of the BL class as a great way to tighten up the fields and make for some great racing. A class where motor is out of the equation. If they are tweakable and adjustable, then why not just stick to Brushed motors?
With all the mods, added timing, its starting to cloud up the water so to speak. I hope rules are put into place or the motors go to locked timing and make em non-tweakable
 

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JOHN, HERES THE WAY I SEE IT THE FAST GUY'S ARE STILL GOING TO BE FAST NO MATTER WHAT, I THINK IT TAKES THE CHEAT FACTOR OUT OF IT? THE GUYS LIKE ME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK, IT WILL GIVE ME TIME TO BETTER LEARN HOW TO TUNE A CHASSIS, AND NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MOTOR MAINTENANCE ON TOP OF IT, I LOVE BRUSHLESS AND WON'T RUN A BRUSHED MOTOR AGAIN IT IS SO MUCH EASIER!!!!! NO OFFENSE JOHN, YOU KNOW I LOVE YA BROTHER!!!! :thumbsup:
RICK K.
 

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I have not tried the arm upgrade,but from what i'm hearing it does'nt seem to make a diff.PS i like to run the bl as my 2nd class,it still gives me time to do motor work on my brushed motors.Seems to work out for me.Like it or not bl is here and tracks will in my opinion always have a class for both bl & br so i plan on taking advantage of both worlds for now.The fast guys are going to be fast no matter what the class.And with the battery of the month club it sure makes it nice not to have to constantly be spending hard earned dough on motors.Just my 2 cents,NO PUN INTENDED

Later Scott Chase Sr. POWERED BY OHP MOTORS AND BATTERIES HOOKED UP TROUGH BSR TIRES.
 

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My timing at the bl nats was wherever novak set it at?? I knew about adjusting it but did not understand how to gear for making changes so I left it stock.. I can honestly say that even If I knew where to gear it the timing change alone would not have bumped me up from 5th overall to first.. Jamie's car was on lockdown.. He is good at tuning a chassis and the results were pretty accurate.. I dont know who was/wasnt changing timing...but I know the cars that were handling well were towards the top... and the ones that wernt were towards the bottom..

I have/have tried the upgrade rotor.. Im not convinced it really helps.. its lighter.. so maybe on a small tight track has a slight advantage.. but really the only thing I saw out of it was the bigger bearing.. I had heard on bigger tracks your better off the run the heavier stock one. ??

But again Ive a NEWB in brushless.. Like Scott posted above I run it as a second class and its great.. All I do is make chassis adjustments after every round.. >>when I ran 2 brushed classed I was either suffering in 1 of the classes or THRASHING trying to get motors cut/rebuilt etc ect..
 

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Ive been running Dirtoval all summer using BL motors. It is the the greatest thing since the esc. I beleive the timing should be locked. I know i know, im the biggest instigater. I havent jacked the timing on any of the motors i used this summer. I tried it at allens bl race last year. I really dont beleive jacking the timing helped me at all. I heard from sonny b that the sintered arm didnt drop lap times at all. I have one and i plan on running it in my 4300. Zubie dont you have some bearing lube? id be willing to try it.
 

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I'm just getting back in after a year, but here is my perspective.

I was one of the first on the BL bandwagon 2 years ago and I promoted on here all the time. Which I got jumped on for constantly, by the guys who said it'd never take off.

From day one I have thought that there should be no mods to the motors unless the parts were Novak parts used as intended for the motor. I frankly don't think the timing thing should be allowed, but there's really no way to control it unless the motors are manufactured differently.

That being said I don't think cranking up the timing probably does that much. Last summer before I stopped racing I was running 5.9s at the Tri-Clone with 3300 batts and the SS speedo. This summer I saw the guys were running 5.8s with the GTB or LRP speedo, 3800 batts and the timing cranked. To me that indicates turning up the timing really does not do much. Also, from what I have heard the timing can be turned up too far, so half the people doing it are probably actually hurting performance.

Somone asked what's the advantage of BL if you can still tweak the motor. Well the advantage is you still only need one motor and you still don't have to do any motor building. Even if a new and improved rotor comes out a couple times a year BL will still be exponentially less expensive than brushed racing.

Someone else said set-up is less important in BL racing. I think set-up will always be equally important in any form of racing. There will always be a first place and there will always be a last place and set-up will always be the difference. Now I will grant you that in BL last place may not be as many laps behind first place, but that doesn't mean set-up is less of a factor. I also, think it's an advantage to have the "also rans" closer to the leaders. It keeps guys more interested and less frustrated if they feel the top guys are more in reach. Even if in reality they aren't.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I can live with the re-placment arms, I would just like to see the timming locked, are they going to come out with programable ESC's next?? lol
 

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Here is my take on brushless. Agree or disagree with it, I think it is going to unify classes in oval racing. We are already seeing a lot of racers running 4300 4-cell in oval. I've never run mod or 4-cell because I just wasn't familiar with 19turn or mod motors or gearing. I didn't want to cut the comm after every run, so I've stuck with stock. But with the amount of racers moving over to brushless, I want to be where the large class count is. I'm not an a-main racer so if I get beat I'll know that it was because of driving or setup. I don't have to wonder if the winner had some exotic brush/spring combo or tweaked arm or super battery or zapped can. For now I think the playing field is fairly level. There aren't very many options for speed controls and even fewer for motors. I don't think brushless should turn into spec racing, but I think for now it could be a good thing that options are limited. I'd much rather come in mid pack in a field of 40 than 1st in a field of 4 or 5. For the average racer I think brushless is a good thing.
 

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hay Big John this is dad I thought you had retired from racing, you never call to see how I am. Nice son you only call when you need something. HEEEEEEEEEE.
 

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It is my understanding from working with the electric airplane guys, That when you have a brushless system that uses a sensor. (the plug with the small wires) The speedcontrol always knows where the rotor is and accounts for it. If this is true with our systems It should not matter where you have the endbell set. The speedcontrol would always keep the timing at the factory setting.

If anyone knows the FACTS about these systems, I would like to hear them.
 
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