Hobbyist Forums banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a B&S 14HP I/C Quiet engine on a 1994 MTD tractor (egine type 287707-0220).

I recently had a needle, seat, and float carb issue that I was able to get fixed pretty easily but after about 2 hours of running I'm having issues getting the engine to get started. This has happened periodically in the past, but when I helped the top of the engine spin I was able to get it started. It's leaf cleanup time, and there's a lot of starting and stopping every 5 minutes or so, which is hard on any electrical system. When I turn the key to start, I always hear a CLICK (starter solenoid/relay, I assume), but the starter doesn't always spin. The battery is 2 years old and has been treated well during the off season (kept warm and trickle charged). By itself, it has 12.95v, and during charging from the alternator, it's at 13.6v. So, these seem to be ok. The battery hasn't been load tested, so I can't tell if it's actually good, but it does seem to hold a charge and that's fine for me.

So, not only does the starter not spin all the time, it doesn't seem very powerful, nor does the magneto create much spark. Sometimes the starter even smokes from the bottom. Since cleaning off this area I haven't seen any more smoke, but regardless, that's not supposed to happen.

I've included a couple pics:
MOTOR
STARTER

I was hoping to remove the starter (2 torx bolts holding it to the body) and simply replace the back end of it (it's a kit - new brushes, etc. At least I think so...), but the right bolt is inaccessible for std sockets. Anyone have a trick to remove this? It does appear to be a bolt too, so maybe I can get a wrench on it? Pretty tight in there.

What is your thought on how I should proceed? To me, the starter is the key. If it can spin the engine fast enough the magneto will generate more spark which will help the engine turn over sooner (or at all). Is this logic correct? Anything else? Thanks for your help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,116 Posts
Check connections of the battery cables make sure the engine has a good ground and the cable that attaches to the chassis is clean and tight. You may have a bad starter solenoid. I use a wobble extension and socket to remove the starter mounting bolts, or an extended reach torx bit will also work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
bad solenoid?

Battery cables (at the battery) look good, but haven't looked at where they attach next.
Ground cable looks good at both places (near the exhaust shield, and just below that on the frame).

How would I determine if the starter solenoid is bad? Or do I just bite the bullet and replace it?

Is the solenoid something that will either work or not, or could it only be failing to supply all the current it's supposed to?

How do you get to the solenoid? Remove the deck and get into that area from underneath?

Thanks for your quick reply!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,116 Posts
You can't really look at a connection and tell if it's good. The only way to tell if the connection is allowing enough current through would be to put a load test on it.

To check the connections, take them loose, and make sure there is no corrosion or rust between them, if there is, clean them and reinstall. Also make sure the engine has a good ground it the ground cable does not hook directly to the engine.

You can jump the connections on the top of the solenoid with a screw driver or jumper or a wire heavy enough to carry a good load and if the starter spins, then you can safely assume the solenoid in no good. They do get wear internally so it's possible that the solenoid in not allowing enough current through to the starter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
If the valves on this engine haven't been adjusted recently and their is too much clearance, the compression release mechanism might not be working as it should. That would also cause hard starting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I know what it is...

When I bang on the body of the starter, as the key is turned to start, I can get the starter to start and stop periodically. To me, this seems that the winding is bad. Time to replace the starter!

Thanks for everyone and their help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
When I bang on the body of the starter, as the key is turned to start, I can get the starter to start and stop periodically. To me, this seems that the winding is bad. Time to replace the starter!

Thanks for everyone and their help!
pretty much.. especially if you've been banging on it with a hammer or something and probably cracked the magnets or something already.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
strange

I removed the starter, hooked up a car starter pack to it and it seems to go great. I don't know if the gear that engages to the flywheel raised up, but it didn't hesitate, etc.

I was able to test drive a brand new starter too and when installed it responded with the same slow speed and hesitation the my starter does. It wasn't the exact correct model, but it showed me there's something going on in the electrical system.

I replaced the solenoid too, but the same behavior occurs with the starter. I get the loud click, then the starter doesn't do much. From this I think my original solenoid is fine.

Then I ran the actual thick starter wire directly to the battery (bypassing the solenoid and everything) and the same behavior happened. Again, the slow running, periodically stopping...

Ground wire appears to be fine. All terminals were cleaned and wire brushed, then tightened.

Anyone have any thoughts?


Then I took off the back of the starter to check the brushes. This was before I realized you could check them through the small slots that are located on the back plate. SPROING! Time to look for all those parts...

What I did notice is that 2 of the 4 brushes have loose wires (they're opposite each other too). Is it possible that while the starter is running, these two might not be getting current? It's like running on 1/2 power, I'd think. When I had been banging on the outside (with a rubber mallet, not a hammer), perhaps I was moving the wires enough to get current to flow...
I should probably get new brushes and wires seeing they're loose. That can't be good. The magnets that line the housing are all intact and not cracked.

Still, I'm stumped about why the new starter did the same thing?

Could my thick starter wire be bad? The terminals have been cleaned and they seem to be ok. This is the only common variable with everything that I've tested.

Thanks.

:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
please stop and check the lash on the valves

this is a problem that i have myself chased

it ended up being the valves needed to be lashed then over lashed to correct the problem

here is the video that i use
i use the same thing on turn the engine until the valve is down then lash the other


to over lash if needed close the gap that you are using

he used .004 if the cam is worn and still does the dragging crank then move to .002 anything beyond that is very worn and needs replacement but i have run some with no gap to get them by until parts arrive or the money is right

just take your time and you will get it

thanks for the help

a few words from a dumb *******

i love this place:wave::wave:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
this isn't the issue.

The problem you're describing would be an issue if the starter couldn't spin the engine. I get this and I've had this happen before. The problem now is that the starter doesn't spin fast enough to even have the little top gear engage with the flywheel. There is no engagement with the flywheel, so while there might be a valve problem that you describe, this can't be my current issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,116 Posts
The problem you describe is consistent with low current to the starter.

Since you jumped directly to the starter from the battery, then the problem is likely a bad ground between the engine and the battery (assuming your battery is good).

You can test this by using jumper cables to connect the battery directly to the starter and ground the engine directly to the battery.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
ok, bad ground.

Okay, so I need to replace the brushes on the starter seeing I was stupid on how I handled that, then I'll be able to test my ground fix.

Battery load tests to 400 amps, so it's fine.

I plan on replacing the ground wire from the battery to the frame, though it looks perfectly fine. Do I need to be concerned about the ground wire that attaches the engine to the frame (near starter and exhaust)? That's covered in some gunk, but looks solid too. The frame is painted black and the grounding bolt threads into the hole. I don't need to worry about removing paint to make contact that way, do I?

I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks for everyone's help, I really appreciate it.

:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,116 Posts
Do I need to be concerned about the ground wire that attaches the engine to the frame (near starter and exhaust)? That's covered in some gunk, but looks solid too. The frame is painted black and the grounding bolt threads into the hole. I don't need to worry about removing paint to make contact that way, do I?:rolleyes:
I would clean the paint off where the ground attaches to the frame make sure it's metal to metal contact, and I would clean the ground from the engine to the frame as well. This is easy to test, just hook jumper cable directly from battery negative terminal to engine block, if this cures it, then the problem lies somewhere in the grounding circuit.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top