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My personal opinion, with apologies to John P......

Growing up and watching the series I like the TOS E. For it's time it was realistic enough and had it's elegance. In my mind the Refit is no Refit but a re-engineered constitution class ship. To me it is much more believable to have had TMP start with the original being added to a museum someplace with the crew reassigned to what I think should have been the "A" all along. The only other acceptable transition would have been to put TOS E through a recycler. In my mind there is no way they are the same ship or even the same frame.

Just my 2 cents worth, again apologies to John P

BTW - The Refit is my favorite.....:dude:
 

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trevanian said:
No, the decision on the engines was a very deliberate one (stupid in my view), absolutely locked in nearly two years prior to the film's release. Richard Taylor (no relation to the Richard Taylor at WETA now) was Robert Abel's art director, and he was in charge (over Probert) on the redesign from a time (roughly dec 77) BEFORE "in thy image" scaled up into TMP. He specifically took charge of certain areas, especially the engines, so they reflect EXACTLY what he wanted (except for the changes that were added after Abel's removal, mainly the spotlights.)
Yes, but the Phase II model was built, which took time. According to the MJ Plans at http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/Phase2Drawings.htm the design of it was ongoing up until Nov 77 at least. But then it took some time to build it.

But that design and model was abandoned and additional pre-production time was wasted up when they decided to re-design yet again around Dec 77. THAT wasted even more time. Now we know from Andy Probert's pics that the redesigned bridge/vip lounge, etc. was added sometime around mid '78 to finalize the ship. So that means the ship with all of it's pearl paint was done before this time, which btw, painting it took up most of that time according to Mr. Olsen. Designing and building was a vastly smaller timespan. In that respect (1.5 years from debut) it seems correct that they decided well in advance, as you say.

Keep in mind, the Phase II model was never finished. Yet all the plans show a definitive line for a Bussard. Production paintings based on the Phase II plans show a Bussard. Even pics of the Phase II model molds show the line. So the 'how to build it, internally, in this new lateral shape'' issue of a newer Bussard wasn't easily adopted into the new model since the Phase II model didn't even reach that point either. I don't think it was simply the idea on wanting grills there instead when the new crew came in. The Bussard was a character trait of the TOS Enterprise and wouldn't get easily abandoned if it were not for a sensible reason. Everyone likes the TOS E' s engines. It was the newer angular/lateral engine shape that was problematic. It was most likely that the change in the overall forward shape of the engine and how to resolve it's look that lead to the decision to just put grills there due to the lack of time to figure it out externaly or internally.

I admit that's just speculation, but it makes sense. The production was already experiencing the enormous delays and pressures that plagued ST:TMP. This was AFTER the studio's MAJOR concerns of switching effects houses. They had to get it done and I speculate the loss of the bussard was the casualty of that time constraint.

My point really is- despite the fact that it was a year and a half prior to film release, they didn't have a year and a half to get the ship done. They were on a schedule within schedules of redesigning, fabricating, wiring, painting, and test filming. All because time equaled money and plenty of time had been wasted already.
 

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I'd like to think the original Phase II (not that BBMM abomination being passed around as the Phase II) was to have Bussard Collectors with a lighting pattern similar or exact to the warp core in TMP. A blue/white (red/orange?) fluxuating effect behind the entire forward end dome.
 

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ThomasModels said:
I'd like to think the original Phase II (not that BBMM abomination being passed around as the Phase II) was to have Bussard Collectors with a lighting pattern similar or exact to the warp core in TMP. A blue/white (red/orange?) fluxuating effect behind the entire forward end dome.
I've got some artwork from an old Starlog magazine showing a preproduction illustration of the Phase II version of the ship with the secondary hull registration numbers and such. I'll check that for signs of an effect there. I don't remember anything there, however, I don't think I ever looked for it.

I've seen a poster version of the ST:TMP ship that has a bunch of details wrong but seems to indicate some sort of effect on the nacelles there.

I'd like to think there'd have been an effect there as well. I'd love to be able to document such for a Phase II model kit. As pointed out, the line is definitely there for it. It'd be a cool effect to have.
 

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PerfesserCoffee said:
I've got some artwork from an old Starlog magazine showing a preproduction illustration of the Phase II version of the ship with the secondary hull registration numbers and such . . .
Well, I'm flummoxed. :confused: I know I've seen it somewhere but it wasn't in the old Starlog magazine -- I looked and that was the early TMP version with vents.

Edit:

Found it! Page 61 of The Art of Star Trek. It's an earlier version of the Mike Minor illustration that appeared in Starlog. It shows a dish antenna, a couple of indentions under the saucer, STOS style insignia and lettering but no effect at the front of the nacelles. Of course, it doesn't really show the effect from the sides of the engines, similar to the movie effect, either so it's not conclusive.

Then again, the fronts of the nacelles of the model being build look solid so the major lighting effect may have been just the sides of the nacelles.
 

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Lloyd Collins said:
I read that Matt Jefferies wanted the nacelles on TOS 1701 to be like what was on the refit, but Gene Roddenberry got his way. I am glad, because that is what I like about
TOS ship. You can see the power.
I'd like to see this in print somewhere. Can you find it?

I suspect it is a mistaken impression caused by an inaccurate photo caption in one of the Trek art books (can't remember which off hand). It showed a 3-view sketch of the Enterprise by MJ with TMP style engines and backswept pylons. The caption claimed it was the MJ's final drawing of the original TV ship. This despite the plainly read inscription on the drawing dating it to 1977! It was actually MJ's take on the redesign for Phase II...

Mark
 

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PerfesserCoffee said:
Somehow that doesn't look kosher.
PerfesserCoffee,

Your response to the link Trek Ace posted on the nacelle lights.
You are right. The image is from a poster inserted in Science Fantasy Film Classics Magazine July 1978. The poster on one side had that shot of the Enterprise, scene from Laserblast, and This Island Earth. On the other side had blueprints of Franz Joseph Design from the technical manual.

It was an original painting for the magazine. May have got idea from Phase II, but the main feature was TOS. Yes I have the magazine and poster. Part of my Star Trek collection started in the 70's.

I think the lights would look good and could also be what they had in mind for Phase II. I so far have not read anything to confirm that.

Lloyd :wave:
 

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MGagen said:
I'd like to see this in print somewhere. Can you find it?

I suspect it is a mistaken impression caused by an inaccurate photo caption in one of the Trek art books (can't remember which off hand). It showed a 3-view sketch of the Enterprise by MJ with TMP style engines and backswept pylons. The caption claimed it was the MJ's final drawing of the original TV ship. This despite the plainly read inscription on the drawing dating it to 1977! It was actually MJ's take on the redesign for Phase II...

Mark
Mark,

Finding the book I read that in will take some time. I have been reading a lot of my Star Trek books lately,and I do not remember which book. I will let you know when I find it.

Lloyd
 

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MGagen said:
I'd like to see this in print somewhere. Can you find it?

I suspect it is a mistaken impression caused by an inaccurate photo caption in one of the Trek art books (can't remember which off hand). It showed a 3-view sketch of the Enterprise by MJ with TMP style engines and backswept pylons. The caption claimed it was the MJ's final drawing of the original TV ship. This despite the plainly read inscription on the drawing dating it to 1977! It was actually MJ's take on the redesign for Phase II...

Mark
Mark,

An update. I found it. Star Trek The Magazine, December 2001 issue on the STMP Director's Edition. On page 84, redesigning the 1701, "He goes on to say that he had actually prepared drawings that showed the ENTERPRISE with flat nacelles when he'd originally created the ship. He had planned to present then if Gene didn't like the first version of the ENTERPRISE he saw but since they hadn't been needed he'd filed them away for future use. These drawings provided the basis for his redesign."

I knew I could find but not this fast. I am glad Gene picked what is our favorite starship. :thumbsup:

Lloyd :wave:
 

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Yoshinator,
That shot of the moulds you posted is a beauty. Does anyone else have any other rare photos of the models or pre production? I think that the design for the Phase II ship would stand up well as a cannon interim refit - sort of a test prototype commissioned by starfleet. I agree with the atke on the blue / white lighting effect for the bussards. It just looked so cool.
 

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NJFNick,
I noticed that you are from Nottingham, made me think of Robin Hood the series with Richard Green. Love that show. Good to see you here.

Your mention about the Bussards lighting, they would have to be red. If you think about it ,TOS,STNG,and the other series all have red so I believe a standard was been set that need to be kept.

LLoyd
 

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Lloyd Collins said:
Your mention about the Bussards lighting, they would have to be red. If you think about it ,TOS,STNG,and the other series all have red so I believe a standard was been set that need to be kept.
Definitely. Though all we have is one inaccurate poster's suggestion of an effect on the front of the nacelle so far, I don't think it's much of a stretch to include one there in addition to the blue effect behind it.
 
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