Sometimes we get DECENT super hero movies. Here's what is too often the case though. 'Os' is my comment and 'H' is supposedly some Hollywood producer's response.

Os: a super hero movie should be strongly based in the comic books.
H: who says?

Os: well look at the success of the first two Superman movies, Spiderman movies and X Men ones, they're fairly true to the comics.
H: aw, just slap some super hero title on a movie and people will want to see it!

Os: some ideas for the Superman movie in the works have been awful. Out with the costume, the emblem, the powers!
H:why not? it's all CORN!

Os: what about logical casting like Christopher Reeve and George Reeves as Superman?
H:Dean Cain.

Os: it's been said that the writers writing these scripts never read the comics and have no place writing super hero movies. What do you say to that?
H: if you want traditional super hero movies, go see the OLD stuff. Been there, done that.

Anyhoo, you get the idea. LOL!

Os

Os - give specific examples of bad Superhero movies (and there are plenty of 'em out there) and then tell us specifically why you think they are bad. For instance, "Daredevil" hews pretty closely to the comic book mythos and was written and directed by a self-proclaimed "major Daredevil fan", but I consider it to be a pretty bad movie. I could give 50 reasons why and very few of them have anything to do with fidelity to the comic book. Likewise, "Catwoman" is a pretty bad movie but if you changed the character's name from Patience Prince back to Selina Kyle and ended the movie with a confrontation with Batman it wouldn't have made the movie any better. People are jumping all over "Batman Begins" because they think the Batmobile looks funky or because Batman has an all-black costume but I'm telling you, that movie is going to come so much closer than any previous version to the Batman most fanboys dream about that it's going to make their heads spin. I'm of the opinion that comic book Superhero movies have got to be one of the most difficult genres to do well - and while I agree that it helps considerably if the creators know and respect the characters' comic book origins - that alone is not nearly enough.

If you wanna know why typical hollywood Comic adaptions suck, buy or rent the An Evening with Kevin Smith DVD and listen to Kev' tell about his meeting with legendary producer/ex-hairdresser Jon Peters about Smith's script for a new Superman. Not only will you understand why it's fortunate that movie didn't get made, but it also explains the giant spider at the end of the awful "Wild, Wild West" remake!


BTW, I just watched "Hellboy" yesterday and liked it immensely! Perlman is great, as is most of the character actor cast.

To whoever placed that laughing face on the Dean Cain comment THANKS, if I could still utilize those icons things, I'd have put one there.

Os

Fanboys make Batman movie: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=18178

To whoever placed that laughing face on the Dean Cain comment THANKS, if I could still utilize those icons things, I'd have put one there.

Os
Os, it's auromatic when you get a D immediately after a : ...nuisance, I get that happening to me too.

Gotta agree with Zorro on this. Dark Knight Returns' Frank Miller tried writing a couple of comic book-esque films: Robocops 2 and 3. Horrible. He should never be allowed to write scripts, even though many fans thought it would be Nirvana to have him adapt his Year One. Sounded like a very bad idea to me.

OTOH, we all cried foul over the new "Catwoman" because it took liberties with the character. Well, so did Batman Returns...and yet most of us loved the Ctawoman in that one (even people who disliked the movie), enough that the studio wanted a Catwoman movie on the first place.

It must be a difficult balance, to tell a story that works credibly onscreen, knowing what can be altered and what can't be. In the end, as much as we talk over the details specific to lore, we embrace or reject what works pertinent to the film in and of itself - and more so do general audiences who may not be familiar with the titles in the first place. I never read the X-Men books, but love the movies.

X-Men is an odd duck in paying fidelity to the books in some ways and not others...not all X-Fans adore them. Most of us think "that's how a comic book movie should be made", then turn around and grouse that this or that next project is "trashing the costume!!"

X-Men works without the costumes because it has a director who is a good filmmaker and storyteller, period, who saw this world clearly in his imagination and made choices based on his films' need. We love those movies' faithfulness in the origins they do hold to, but I suspect we would also have embraced them had they been looser as long it they were made this well. We love them because they work as strong stories and films, and the fidelity is icing on the cake.

I enjoy the Burton Batmans as another version of Batman, no less legitimate than any other but not a perfect rendering of the original - and why not, when the comic books themselves constantly shifted gears and reinvented itself? From it's dark pulp origins to the grinning Batman and Robin, the goofier Fifties/Sixties, the darker turn in the Seventies, Frank Miller's DKR...

I agree with your sentiment about the matter, but I understand the need for some leeway in bringing a title to life if it makes sense to a film's story or sensibility. That can be a good thing, Burton pproved that it can work. If Batman Returns hit a bad note in conecting with audiences, it wasn't in changing the origins of it's characters but in having a convoluted plot and a tone darker and more adult than many were prepared for (some have said it was too ugly with respect to the Penguin, exactly what I felt about the Burton's first Batman where ir came to he Joker).

As for the new Batman movie, I too think it's gonna be the best Btman film ever...I dislike that Batmobile design, but I bet it will be credible and logical in context within the film.

To whoever placed that laughing face on the Dean Cain comment THANKS, if I could still utilize those icons things, I'd have put one there.

Os
Yup, you did it yourself when you forget to put a space between the colon ad the capital D. That's the code for the laughing face.

H: Dean Cain
H:Dean Cain

See?

As for the new Batman movie, I too think it's gonna be the best Btman film ever...I dislike that Batmobile design, but I bet it will be credible and logical in context within the film.
What Jeff said.

- GJS

So THAT's how I can put up an icon! Well, it worked out well as it helps the gag. I never read any Blade comics but liked the movies. The Clooney Batman was marred b/c it was an action COMEDY. Clooney was a great choice for Bats though. I think DD worked well and the Hulk was good.

I can't understand why they had to change the Batcave, Batmobile and Robin's suit for the Clooney movie....did'nt help it a bit. Schumaker was an idiot for doing that. Yet I thought Batman Forever was really good.

The SHAZAM movie project had a great script by a CM fan and a possible director who was a CM fan, that Batman Dead End guy. Both were thrown out! Studios can be so retarded or is it that they know what's good and we don't? I want to see that Punisher movie on dvd.

Os

Clooney's Bruce Wayne was married in "Batman & Robin"? When'd they reveal that? :confused:

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The SHAZAM movie project had a great script by a CM fan and a possible director who was a CM fan, that Batman Dead End guy. Both were thrown out! Studios can be so retarded or is it that they know what's good and we don't? I want to see that Punisher movie on dvd.
Os
While I admire "Batman: Dead End" for what it is ( a six minute long, well photographed, reasonably well edited demo reel featuring a a muscle bound
"actor" wearing an impressive looking traditional costume), I've been tickled at some of the hosannahs that have been applied to it as "the best Batman movie ever made!". It's six minutes long, there is no dialogue to speak of, and Batman is battling Predators for cripes sake! The guy in the suit was chosen for his physique, not because of any discernable acting ability. It's not a "movie". There is no story. There is no beginning, middle, or end. The reel indicates that Sandy knows how to design a real cool looking Bat-suit and that he can handle dramatic lighting pretty well - not that he knows how to tell a two hour story on film. Also, I keep hearing derision at every young actor under the age of 30 who is named as a possibility to assume the role of Superman - "This is supposed to be Super-man, not Super-boy!" Guess how old Christopher Reeve was when he donned the suit? He was 24 years old. And any actor who is chosen for that role faces more of an acting challenge as Clark Kent than he does as The Man of Steel.

Unfortunately, the battle of the "comic book movie" will never be won b/c as long as they(studios) are approaching the movie as a "comic book movie" and not just a movie then the studios will continue to have problems... I think X-Men translates as a good movie, not just a good comic movie. That way it doesn't just become a fanboy movie but the girlfriends and wives of the fanboys love the movie too. My wife has a crush on Spiderman and Wolverine, not Toby and Hugh but the characters themselves. Brian Singer made an amazing film that raised the bar and I feel that some studios have fallen short of that bar b/c they just don't understand the formula. The other thing is MARVEL understands alot more then DC what it takes to make these genre films.

As far as Joel Schitmaker goes... Batman Forever was tolerable b/c Tim Burton was one of the executive producers and Joel was probably hesitant to totally gay the movie up b/c it was his first time. Also Jim Carrey, like him or not, pulled that movie out of the toilet with his homage to Frank Gorshin. The thing that bothers me the most is Joel isn't fully to blame, the studio(WB) should have pulled back the raines alot... We all know Joel Schitmaker has the ability to make a good movie and he has the ability to make a dark film too, just check out his filmography: The Lost Boys, Flatliners, 8mm, A Time to Kill, The Client, Falling Down and one of my favs D.C. Cab. When you read that list you can see why he might have been considered to take over for Burton.

Sam Raimi has made a successful attempt b/c he was born to make those movies... Ash is Peter Parker... He realizes what it takes to make a movie not just a comic book movie. He is a great storyteller and has a querky way about it. I can watch Spiderman 15 times in a row and enjoy it every time.

I know some of you do not like AVP but I look at that as a comic adaptation b/4 I look at it as prequel/sequel to the other Predator/Alien films. Many people say(I am one of them) That you can watch Spiderman and almost see panels from the comic brought to life. Well I feel the same way about AVP. I could go through my comics and scan/post the MANY panels that were referenced in the movie. AVP is not in the same crowd as Spiderman 1&2, Batman 1&2, X-Men 1&2, Superman 1&2, BUT as far as adaptations go it was accurate and as far as popcorn summer movies go it was an A- but as far as what I was saying about being considered a film not just a comic film, it falls short.

I do have to say we have a ways to go before every director of a "Comic Film" understands the formula and that is why we have a Blade adaptation versus a Steel adaptation, X-Men adaptation versus Catwoman and so on.

As far as casting goes Clooney got a bumb rap b/c if Tim Burton cast Clooney instead of Keaton, Clooney whould have been amazing as Bruce Wayne and Perfect as The Dark Knight. Clooney suffered from bad direction and an awful script, Oh and nipples... He was labeled as not being able to act... well if you watch him in the Three Kings or Ocean's 11 we all know that he is phenomenal as an actor. It's a shame he already played Batman b/c he would have made a great Supes.

Just some food for thought,
Travis

As far as casting goes Clooney got a bumb rap b/c if Tim Burton cast Clooney instead of Keaton, Clooney whould have been amazing as Bruce Wayne and Perfect as The Dark Knight. Clooney suffered from bad direction and an awful script, Oh and nipples... He was labeled as not being able to act... well if you watch him in the Three Kings or Ocean's 11 we all know that he is phenomenal as an actor. It's a shame he already played Batman b/c he would have made a great Supes.

Just some food for thought,
Travis

I think Clooney got an early bum rap too, I still think his best performance to date was his first movie, as Seth Gecko in "Till Dust Till Dawn". In fact, I wish they hadn't brought in vampires, and just made a movie about those two brothers and their dynamic. Clooney was great in the "good bad-guy" role there, and he was pretty cool in "Out of Sight" as well.

Curious,


who would you pick to play the role of Wonder Woman if they made a movie today and stuck to the traditional image that the comics delivered.???? Some of the movies portrayed a pretty decent live action version of the comics, especially the recent Spiderman movies.

Curious,


who would you pick to play the role of Wonder Woman if they made a movie today and stuck to the traditional image that the comics delivered.???? Some of the movies portrayed a pretty decent live action version of the comics, especially the recent Spiderman movies.
Liv Tyler - if she'd hit the damned stair-master. Not Catherine Zeta Jones. She's too "delicate".

Liv Tyler - if she'd hit the damned stair-master. Not Catherine Zeta Jones. She's too "delicate".

Mimi Rogers would have been great, about 15-20 years ago. Maybe Monica Bellucci with a good accent coach......

I'll tell ya what I like the idea of Monica Bellucci

Give it a few years and the ideal Wonder Woman would be Lindsey Lowhan... Rebecca Romajn might be good.

Travis

It's a shame Julie Strain sucks so bad and is old b/c she is a true Amazon Woman.

Travis

Give it a few years and the ideal Wonder Woman would be Lindsey Lowhan
Maybe, except that I think redheads should stay redheads -- there aren't enough pretty red-haired actresses in the world who look like their hair is really that color.

Random question: I'm confused -- is there a widespread belief that Dean Cain didn't make a good Superman? I thought he was pretty good in the role.

Qapla'

SSB

Cain was a little boyish for my taste. I heard a rumor today that Keneau Reeves is in the running for Superman. I have a very hard time believing that unless the producers just think it would be cool to continue the Reeve/Reeves name thing.

I heard a rumor today that Keneau Reeves is in the running for Superman. I have a very hard time believing that unless the producers just think it would be cool to continue the Reeve/Reeves name thing.

I think he'd be great after seeing him fly in the Matrix series. I agree that the Reeve/Reeves cosmic correlation is cool!

For Wonder Woman, I'd like to see Christina Ricci! :thumbsup:

Mimi Rogers would have been great, about 15-20 years ago.
Them would have been some big eagle wings!

sbaxter, Dean just was NOT a Superman IMO. I'm not alone in thinking that. Dean is watchable, he did a good job and it was a good series BUT come on, his high, mousey voice, his too teen like face, his short size make him a Superman?
For Wonder Woman, I'd go with Nancy McKeon or YES, Lucy Lawless or 'China' (Joni Lauer?) the wrestler gal.

Os

For Wonder Woman, I'd like to see Christina Ricci! :thumbsup:
Yeah, as long as John Waters is directing.:p

or 'China' (Joni Lauer?) the wrestler gal.

Os
Yeah, as long as John Waters is directing.:p I mean, "sexy" is certainly a subjective term but that woman's got a jawline and physique that looks like it belongs to a pro football linebacker.

Them would have been some big eagle wings!


Mimi'd fill out the costume admirably, no doubt, but she had a kind "I'm-a-smart-fun-bad-girl" quality in her prime that I was really referring too.

And as you pointed out, her credentials as a zaftig amazon are impressive.

Dean is watchable [SNIP] his too teen like face
I always thought he was playing him a little younger than we had traditionally seen him -- mid-twenties as opposed to late twenties/about 30 as he has often been portrayed. So that didn't bother me. And I never really considered his voice "high" -- it was just a normal voice, to my ears. Not James Earl Jones or Michael Dorn, but perfectly acceptable. In truth, I never really noticed its timbre or pitch, which argues for it being more-or-less nondescript.

What I liked most about the show was his essentially "regular guy" portrayal of Clark Kent, rather than the Super-Dork he often became in others. Both were in line with the comic portrayals of their respective times, so neither is really a complaint, just a preference.

Qapla'

SSB

Yeah, as long as John Waters is directing.:p I mean, "sexy" is certainly a subjective term but that woman's got a jawline and physique that looks like it belongs to a pro football linebacker.

Not to mention one of the most of annoying voices I've heard.

As for Catherine Zeta-Jones, I think the problem with her and a lot of the other names floated through the years is that her sexuality is just too aggressive. One of the great things about Lynda Carter is that she embodied both sexiness and innocence. She was stunningly beautiful, but seemed unaware of it.

Zeta-Jones's personality is best suited for parts like she had in THE PHANTOM, a bad girl who could be brought to the side of good by the right man.

I always thought Jennifer Connelly would have made the perfect Wonder Woman, at least before she apparently became anorexic a few years ago.

One of the great things about Lynda Carter is that she embodied both sexiness and innocence. She was stunningly beautiful, but seemed unaware of it.
And she also had a vaguely exotic look that was hard to place -- just right for an Amazon princess.

Qapla'

SSB

that woman's got a jawline and physique that looks like it belongs to a pro football linebacker.
"Derrick Brooks is Wonder Woman!" :lol:

Qapla'

SSB

I always thought Jennifer Connelly would have made the perfect Wonder Woman, at least before she apparently became anorexic a few years ago.
Man, she was just nearly perfect in general back then -- one of the very, very few women who could inspire me to watch a film she was in for no other reason than that she was in it. Career Opportunities, for example.

Qapla'

SSB

I agree with the Jennifer Connelly suggestion... Definitely Lawless over China... Although speeking of wrestling... Take my favorite Torrie Wilson... Dye her hair black and you have a great Wonder Woman or better yet how about the woman that played T-X in Terminator 3 she would be great...

Travis

As for Superman, I would love to see Tom Welling make the jump to the big screen and it would be perfect b/c Michael Rosenbaum is a GREAT Lex Luthor... Cancel Smallville and take it to Film... It would kick ass.

Travis

OH wait, I forgot my favorite girl!!!!

Kate Beckensale as Diana!!!!

T.

sbaxter, I did forget that Dean's Superman was supposed to be in his early years if you go by the first episode where his Mom and him make the costume and his first exposures as Supes. Maybe the teen-esc look and voice was acceptible then BUT it still is'nt totally Superman to me.

Now George Reeves as Kent, he seemed like a very capable and affable, even heroic in some ways Kent. I don't know if that's more logical than the klutzy Kent Reeve played.

Os

George Reeves as Kent, he seemed like a very capable and affable, even heroic in some ways Kent.
That's true.
I don't know if that's more logical than the klutzy Kent Reeve played.
The biggest drawback to the way Reeve played him -- in a "real-world" sense, but we can discuss it that way because it was supposed to be a role he (Kal-el) was playing, after a fashion -- is that he went kinda "over-the-top" in a way that would tend to draw attention to himself.

I always thought it pretty silly in the '70s and/or '80s when, in the comics, Kent became a TV anchorman. His disguise is pretty shaky at best, and with a TV audience in a large market he would surely be recognized right quick.

Qapla'

SSB

I always thought it pretty silly in the '70s and/or '80s when, in the comics, Kent became a TV anchorman. His disguise is pretty shaky at best, and with a TV audience in a large market he would surely be recognized right quick.

I felt the same way. Newspaper reporters have a degree of anonimity. But TV reporters and anchor-people become recognizable celebrities. The 'glasses disguise' wouldn't hold up to the scrutiny of television audiences for long. ( As if it would have just among his close friends. )

- GJS

After I wrote about how George's Kent was, I realized that George's Superman acted like the same guy.

Os

Joanie 'Chyna' Laurer is a real toughie. She took on 230 lb joey buttafuco in celebrity boxing. (lost on points) She would make a good Big Barda, from Mr. Miracle.

The cartoon Wonder Woman wasn't that attractive. She looked liked a wrestler. But because of Linda Carter, the public expects a super-babe. The were going to remake WW a few years ago, but couldn't find anyone to play the part.

Joanie 'Chyna' Laurer is a real toughie. She took on 230 lb joey buttafuco in celebrity boxing. (lost on points) She would make a good Big Barda, from Mr. Miracle.
Or She-Hulk. Some Superheroes are certainly more difficult to adapt to the screen than others. The new Fantastic Four movie is rumored to be a comedy.

Adventures of Captain Marvel took liberties with the comics source but I like the serial. I recently got the first two Shazam archives books and there are paralells to the early CM comics.

Cap seemed to go through two or three distinct changes by the time he looked like the basic version.

Casting Tom Tyler was an inspired choice if you ask me and there was talk that his voice was wrong for Cap. BS! Casting Frank Coglin as Billy worked too.

Today I think Pat Warburton for Cap but he's only known a Puddy and as the Tick to fanboys. For Dave's World otherwise. All comedies. I don't know if he ever did drama.

Edward Furlong as Junior but he has a severe boozer history so maybe Jason James Richtor (Free Willy). Leo DiCaprio even. Several choices for Mary Marvel, MJH but she's typecast as Sabrina, J.Lo (?), Meg Ryan, Pamela Anderson (?). Leslie Nielson or Ed McMahan as Uncle Dudley?

Os
Os

So, if we mostly agree that Sam Raimi had the right attitude and understanding of the material to do the Spider-Man adaptations...what did everybody think of his comic book movie that was original to film, Darkman?

It had a tendency towards jokiness ala Evil Dead 2, but otherwise it was very much the essence of a comic book brought to life. A charismatic and very sympathetic hero, a good villain, good pace and action, well told. Imaginative.

Last year we were talking about this one up at Sci-Fan, disagreeing whether it held true to the spirit of comic books. I suggested it could be seen as Raimi's interpretation of a comic book, but now I'm thinking it has the flavor of one of the labels that broke away from DC or Marvel, like Dark Horse. It's always been a favorite of mine.

Darkman was a GREAT movie! :thumbsup: I agree that it was very comic bookish in style.

disagree on may counts on darkman... as well as most of raimi's movies...

one thing about tossing these names around as the superheros reminded me of was that the producers of the superman film and the wonder woman tv series intentionally went with realtive unknowns for the heros, so that the actor wouldnt overshadow the character. c. reeves was a soap opera actor before landing supes. burt ward had no acting experience whatsoever when he got robin (in that case it wasnt their intent to use an unknown, but it certainly worked out well). in my case that helped with spider-man as well, as i hadnt encountered maguire before that (or if i had didnt remeber him). the downside is that most aspiring stars know of the superhero curse, getting typecast as the character and being unable to find other work. brendan frasier was supposedly offered the part of superman, and was, at the time of the magazine article i read about it, undecided leaning towards turning it down for that very reason.

i doubt however that most of the studios would allow betting the cost of a mega blockbuster on a relative unknown these days....

There is, or will be, a casting call for an unknown for Superman. Read it somewhere this week.

Tobey Maguire was basically a teen star type before Spidey in such movies as ICE STORM and others. PLEASANTVILLE maybe. He did SEABISKET during filming of the first Spider-Man.

Known to film critics and girls I guess. Spidey films are definetly his first fanboy stuff that I know.

Os

Anybody seen the trailer for "The Incredibles" yet? Looks like a lot of fun.

Anybody seen the trailer for "The Incredibles" yet? Looks like a lot of fun.
"Woman, where is my super suit?

I agree -- I'm really looking forward to this one.

Qapla'

SSB