I race on a flat concrete oval track and have tried both motors and the Monster Stock seems to respond very to gear change. The Binary stock on the other hand is a hard motor to figure out I've tried gearing down two to three tooth smaller than I do with the monster stock. But it still doesn't have that over all speed that I'm looking for. The track that I race on has 307ft drive line. I have tried 120, 110, and 100 spur gear. Just looking for other opinon to help figure out the binary stock motor.

did you try the same gear as a monster?

Put enough gear to melt the brush hoods off, Then ADD 2 teeth!

Its seems everytime Trinity releases a new stocker we see increasing RPM which makes it harder to hit sweet spot in the gearing.

I do not have any Binary Motors but I know with the new Epic Roar Stock motor which has a bit more rpm than the Monster, I pretty much have to be within about .03-.05 of the perfect roll out for the motor. So for example say the perfect rollout is 2.50. If I am one full tooth up at a 2.57 the motor gets hot and falls off around the 3:00 mark. One tooth to low at say a 2.43 and the motor stays to cool with no up front times. I need to be around 2.48-2.52 for it to run good. It's a shame you have to be that close but that is what I am seeing on the track. If you have a temp gun, see how hot the motor is coming off the track. Typically my fastest runs at any track the motors have all come off around 80-95 degrees. If the motor is hotter than that either the car is not efficient or your gearing is off either too high or too low.

Have someone listen to your car, if they can hear the motor winding out to fast then go up in gear, if the motor never seems to wind up by the end of the straight then down down in gear.

I know most guys that run a Binary are usually 3-4 teeth lower than a typical Monster.
The new Epic motor I am usually the same gearing as a high RPM monster motor. Or a full tooth lower than a medium RPM Monster.

did you try the same gear as a monster?

If I gear my monster with 110/38 then I would gear my Binary with 110/36 because of the longer run-up time and higher RPM that it shows on the Dyno.

Its seems everytime Trinity releases a new stocker we see increasing RPM which makes it harder to hit sweet spot in the gearing.

I do not have any Binary Motors but I know with the new Epic Roar Stock motor which has a bit more rpm than the Monster, I pretty much have to be within about .03-.05 of the perfect roll out for the motor. So for example say the perfect rollout is 2.50. If I am one full tooth up at a 2.57 the motor gets hot and falls off around the 3:00 mark. One tooth to low at say a 2.43 and the motor stays to cool with no up front times. I need to be around 2.48-2.52 for it to run good. It's a shame you have to be that close but that is what I am seeing on the track. If you have a temp gun, see how hot the motor is coming off the track. Typically my fastest runs at any track the motors have all come off around 80-95 degrees. If the motor is hotter than that either the car is not efficient or your gearing is off either too high or too low.

Have someone listen to your car, if they can hear the motor winding out to fast then go up in gear, if the motor never seems to wind up by the end of the straight then down down in gear.

I know most guys that run a Binary are usually 3-4 teeth lower than a typical Monster.
The new Epic motor I am usually the same gearing as a high RPM monster motor. Or a full tooth lower than a medium RPM Monster.

I tried the same thing and the car fell off at the end of the run.

By falling off, how many tenths are you talking from the beginning of the run?
I don't count the first lap so say your 2nd through 7th laps are 5.5's I wouldn't want to be in the 6.0's at the end of the run.
I don't like to see over a 4 tenths drop off, if you are then usually something is wrong.
Every track I have been to my fastest run has been with a 0.3 to 0.4 drop off.
My guess would be either the car is not efficient in the turns (i.e. scrubbing speed) enough to hold the gearing, or maybe you are still up about a half tooth to full tooth too high.

How much time are you coming off with a typical deadshorted pack at 35 amps?
You should be around 120-130 seconds.

By falling off, how many tenths are you talking from the beginning of the run?
I don't count the first lap so say your 2nd through 7th laps are 5.5's I wouldn't want to be in the 6.0's at the end of the run.
I don't like to see over a 4 tenths drop off, if you are then usually something is wrong.
Every track I have been to my fastest run has been with a 0.3 to 0.4 drop off.
My guess would be either the car is not efficient in the turns (i.e. scrubbing speed) enough to hold the gearing, or maybe you are still up about a half tooth to full tooth too high.

How much time are you coming off with a typical deadshorted pack at 35 amps?
You should be around 120-130 seconds.

My last race that I ran with the binary I was running 6.7 up front and dropped of 7.4 at the middle to 7.8 at the end. Granted I've only been racing for little over a year and still learn about getting the car to race as free as I can control it but I never had a car drop of that much. The Binary is still a small mystery to use at our track. But I will get it.

Hmmm yeah to lose 7, 10th's is alot. keep playing around you will stumble onto it.
Is anyone else running em there with success?
If so maybe they can help you with the rollout.

I ran one yesterday at Walts Summer Classic. Just gear it the same as a Monster Stock, dont worry if it gets hot. I just missed the track record in all 3 qualifiers, and in the last qualifier Pete D'Agnolo destroyed it by about a lap.

Hmmm yeah to lose 7, 10th's is alot. keep playing around you will stumble onto it.
Is anyone else running em there with success?
If so maybe they can help you with the rollout.

No one else is using them but me so I'm the lone tester. I will make some more changes to the car and I may try gearing it like the monster stock and see what happens.

Hey Rowdy, I,ve ran a binary at Branford several times now, after finding a gear and brush/sping combo that it likes its fast. I normaly run a 37x108 with a monster at Branford ( 310ft runline lil more banking than Echeconnee) with the Binary I,ve found 36x108 with 767 Reedy brushes red springs + & - works very well. This motor does seem to run hotter than a Monster but the performance doesent seem to suffer, so let it eat :lol:
You racing at Echeconnee? I,m hoping to get up there and race soon :thumbsup:
Later,Lee Helander :cool:

Hey Rowdy, I,ve ran a binary at Branford several times now, after finding a gear and brush/sping combo that it likes its fast. I normaly run a 37x108 with a monster at Branford ( 310ft runline lil more banking than Echeconnee) with the Binary I,ve found 36x108 with 767 Reedy brushes red springs + & - works very well. This motor does seem to run hotter than a Monster but the performance doesent seem to suffer, so let it eat :lol:
You racing at Echeconnee? I,m hoping to get up there and race soon :thumbsup:
Later,Lee Helander :cool:

Ya Echeconnee is where I race at thanks for the input and I will try it out.

I ran binarys last year quite a bit an ignoring the dyno i geared up a tooth or so. But remember its all about roll speed.

hey hot rod just put that monsotor in it lol

i agree ignore the dyno just find what it likes on the track

hey hot rod just put that monsotor in it lol

Just being the test mule for use Donnie.

Can you guys help me understand this. We used to run the P2K. Had lots of torque. Laminations on the arm were 2 stacks close together. Then we had the GM3. Tri-rotor design with the stacks farther apart. Not as much torque, but more rpm. Then we got the Monster and the Epic Stock. Fewer laminations spaced farther apart. Still not as much torque, but more rpm. With the reading I've done, more rpm at the sacrifice of torque is NOT a better motor. All those motors develop their peak power at @ 16,000 rpm. So my understanding of it would be to choose the motor with the most torque at that rpm. rpmXtorque/5252=H.P.
I get the feeling that somehow the orient has brainwashed the stock racing world into thinking that rpm's is it and they keep turning out motors that give more of that at the expense of less torque. If I spin a motor faster with less torque, all I gain is heat from friction. It's torque that turns the wheel. But more rpm's sells more motors.
Am I looking at the wrong items, or am I correct to think the "Old School" motors are actually preffered?

If torque was the answer everyone would be running MVP's and P2K's in their oval cars.
In my experiences these motors are 2 minute wonders, heat up and fall off.
A GM3 can usually hang with a Monster until about the 3:30 mark then they usually heat up and fall off to where the Monster does not.
Ask the guys who ran stock (MVP handout) at the nats this past weekend. From what I read they were about 1-2 laps off the pace normally held by a Monster motor.

It seems to me that the older motors grant it had more torque but the current motor have a lot more rpm. It use to be a time if you had a torque base motor you could add a lot mor gear to them compare to a higher rpm motor that you had to play with gearing a little bit more. The Binary motor is more of a RPM motor compare to the Monster stock. For example put both motor out of pack on to a dyno and more than likely you would get a binary that well spin up some where in the 23,500 rpm , .901 torque range with a run-up time maybe 4-5 sec. as compare to a monster that would start off in the 21,500 range, .931 torque with a run-up time in the 3-4 sec. Without doing any special tuning you would gear both motor differently to run at your particular track in your car using the same set-up that you always do. Which motor would you rather have. Remeber this is just an example.

That torque number,.9 something, that number comes at what rpm? I agree about the MVP. Dyno graphs I've seen on that motor give it a power peak at 12,500. Well below the other motors mentioned.(GM3,P2K,Monster). I've been running a Velodrome all summer. My best results have been with the old blue endbell Paradox(handout) motors. I've tried Monsters, geared down, up, same, and always my times are slower. The next closest peson to me had a GM3. Also, when you use the dyno, those results are at what input voltage? Do you set the dyno for 7.2v for six cell and 4.8 for 4? I would guess the results would vary showing one motor better than another dependant on volts. I really didn't say that torque was the answer, but that the most torque at a given rpm would be preferred. Thanks.

It seems to me that the older motors grant it had more torque but the current motor have a lot more rpm. It use to be a time if you had a torque base motor you could add a lot mor gear to them compare to a higher rpm motor that you had to play with gearing a little bit more. The Binary motor is more of a RPM motor compare to the Monster stock. For example put both motor out of pack on to a dyno and more than likely you would get a binary that well spin up some where in the 23,500 rpm , .901 torque range with a run-up time maybe 4-5 sec. as compare to a monster that would start off in the 21,500 range, .931 torque with a run-up time in the 3-4 sec. Without doing any special tuning you would gear both motor differently to run at your particular track in your car using the same set-up that you always do. Which motor would you rather have. Remeber this is just an example.

Dyno is set for 4-cell

If thats the case, then why do the track records keep falling? Cars are getting better, but so are the motors, you just need to find out how to make them sing. I dont race any stock, but I do help the stock guys out, and it seems to me that the biggest problem that people have with getting the BS motors to run is finding the right rollout. Brushes, springs, and other motor work play a big part in it too, but hitting the rollout is very important for these motors, if you cant find the gearing with pinions and spurs, then its time to break out the truer and find the roll out that way.

It took me a while to get it down too, when helping guys out, but after talking to todd putnam on the phone a couple of times, its become clear to me that to find the rip, you need to find the rollout.

The base motor setup that I have been reccomending to guys is one Putnam Green on the pos, and a 767 on the neg. Take 0.010 off of the trailing edge of both brushes. Run two red springs, or a red and a green. Red+ Green-. The two reds seem to let the motor sing a little better on bigger tracks.

I would very strongly reccomend that you personally zap the can. Just to make sure that the magnets are all as close as possible, gauss wise.

Then again, all the typical tricks apply, polish the arm shafts, the bushings. Align the bushings, and ream if needed... so on.

Take the dyno, and toss it out the window. Break the motor in for 50 sec @1-2v, just enough to get the brushes to fully seat across the face, put it in the car and let it rip. I have yet to see anyone not go fast with those tips in our local venue.

just my 2 cents worth(probably not worth that) on our track i like rpm. i set my ksg up as loose as i can get it, if i dont scrub speed to bad i really dont need that much torqe. i tried the epic dual magnet this weekend and couldnt tell one diffrence between it and a monster.but i like rpm, even have some set up blue springs. got 1 monster turning 22,300. and it strolls with one tooth less.

Don't be fooled by chasing RPM or torque...you need both. Watts, (electrical horsepower) is what actually does "the work" in moving the car...the more watts, the more force you have to move your car.

With the introduction of the more "RPM-ish" stocks, rollout is CRITICAL. Most of the time it is overlooked. When I hear people discuss what gear to run instead of what rollout, it is evident that it would be easy for them to be way off in either direction and never know it. One pinion tooth can change as much as 10 points of rollout, depending on tire size, spur, etc. When we search for a rollout, we literally will true tires, change spurs, etc. to alter our rollout 1-2 points, which is like 1/10th of a 1 tooth change of a 64 pitch pinion. So basically, when we're moving our rollout 1 point at a time to find the sweet spot, doing nothing but changing a pinion gear 1 tooth is like making a 10 point jump in rollout, which is HUGE.

I hope that shed some light on it...

Regards,
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
www.putnampropulsion.com
(518) 452-0422

I found this page, http://www.wiltse.net/EPIC.htm, which some of the graphs seem contradictory to me. Running at the Velo, I know what speed I want the car to go, and with some speed/gear charts shown at teamassoc. site, I can find the gear ratio required for various rpm ranges. I know you have to allow for wheel slip, but just using the charts, I've determined my average motor rpm @ 17,000. My bot dropped 2teeth from me to spin the Paradox at 18,500 and was equally fast.Brad did some calculations and determined he had 40% wheel slip. I add a conservative 20% slip, adding 3,400 rpm takes us to 20,400. So when I see dyno results showing a motor with 21,000 and my olp Paradox best at 19,500, well I'm spinning those motors faster than the dyno. We run 6-cell stock and rowdyrj showed the dyno was at 4.8v which accounts for that. But looking at the graphs, all the motors sweet spot was @ 15,500. So I'll have to use the dyno and it sound like what I want to see is watts, Look at the graph to see best power at that rpm and gear from there. Thanks for the help.

so what do you do Todd when running caps and an R rr and L lr;average the tire size?Then if you change that stagger you alter handling characteristics. your thoughts on this,it has always been a good discussion.

Not to step on todds toes, but when you have stager, you take the size of the two tires, add them up, and divide it by 2. That gets you an average size for the rear tires, and you use that in the rollout calculation

DW

I will break out the caliphers and see what I come up with this weekend.

So I used those wheel rate/speed gear charts, and it looks like I was off in the gear by as many as 9 teeth on the pinion. If the Monster has more power, I'll either find it or light that sucker on FIRE! :devil:

Hey Todd, I have been running spec and have been playing around with stock (Monster Stock) but just can't find the perfect roll-out at my track. The first time I ran stock, I was pretty close on my roll-out but not perfect. I went up and down a tooth on my pinion and it didn't feel better either way. The I started making bigger jumps on my pinion size both ways with bad results. I guess what I am asking is if my roll-out was 1.92 and the car was decent, going up to 1.93 or down to 1.91 with tire size could make that much difference in the motors performance? Are these motors that sensitive? Thanks!

I will practice figuring the roll out and since I race on concrete I will take the average measurements from both rear tire.

off topic, but anyone who want some binary stocks.. i have about 60 left in my case.. 18 bucks each not built and 20 built with 767 brushes.... these were bought with intensions of starting a motor building gig. but other engagements haver stopped the idea.... so get em while the price is hot...

pm me or email me

Race some today with the binary and still can't find that sweet spot just yet.

on our 200 foot trqck we roled out at about 2.28-2.30 with a monster

the binary rolled at 1.90-2.15 usually.. thse motors are alot faster then the monster on short tracks... which to me makes no sence.. because of the rpm factor.. but on our short tracks these motors hold the records

i dont think we ever truley found a sweet spot

Hey Rowdy, I,ve ran a binary at Branford several times now, after finding a gear and brush/sping combo that it likes its fast. I normaly run a 37x108 with a monster at Branford ( 310ft runline lil more banking than Echeconnee) with the Binary I,ve found 36x108 with 767 Reedy brushes red springs + & - works very well. This motor does seem to run hotter than a Monster but the performance doesent seem to suffer, so let it eat :lol:
You racing at Echeconnee? I,m hoping to get up there and race soon
Later,Lee Helander :cool:
I know what to do to my quad when I get one now :lol: Thanks,Lee

off topic, but anyone who want some binary stocks.. i have about 60 left in my case.. 18 bucks each not built and 20 built with 767 brushes.... these were bought with intensions of starting a motor building gig. but other engagements haver stopped the idea.... so get em while the price is hot...

pm me or email me

these the 2 magnet or 4 magnet motors?

4 magnets

I know what to do to my quad when I get one now :lol: Thanks,Lee

I will try that comb. I use a 110 spur gear.

Danny: JPH is correct: Take the measurements of both rear tires, and average them, (add both together, divide by 2).This is what you'll use for your tire size to calculate roll out when rear stagger comes into play.

Seven: Yes, you're on the right path. If you alter you're roll out by 2 points, (like going from a 1.91 to a 1.93) you will see a difference...it's that critical. :thumbsup:

Regards,
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
www.putnampropulsion.com
(518)452-0422

Danny: JPH is correct: Take the measurements of both rear tires, and average them, (add both together, divide by 2).This is what you'll use for your tire size to calculate roll out when rear stagger comes into play.

Seven: Yes, you're on the right path. If you alter you're roll out by 2 points, (like going from a 1.91 to a 1.93) you will see a difference...it's that critical. :thumbsup:

Regards,
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
www.putnampropulsion.com
(518)452-0422

Thanks for the knowledge Todd. :thumbsup:

I know what to do to my quad when I get one now :lol: Thanks,Lee

What are the size of the tires that you are using for your roll-out.

Well, I went out to the Velo today to see if that new ratio would work. I dropped 9 teeth from what I had with the good ole Paradox. Went from @ a 2.3 ratio to 3.0. Right out of the box it was way slow compared to the Paradox. I went from spinning the motor @ 17,800 to 22,800. (6-cell stock)After 3 laps I pulled it off because the lap times were poor and after only 3 laps the motor was pretty hot already. The Paradox's come off the track luke-warm in comaprison. So with the Velo Nats so close, I'll be sticking with what will be most competitive for me.

I think that I'm going to try a 110/31- 33 gear on a our track with a run line of 310 ft.

What are the size of the tires that you are using for your roll-out.
4.70 Red RR. as of now.

I was gearing a monster @ 108/35 in Breakout. I broke out once running a fairly low line,little above the red line on the inside.

In Nastruck stock I ran a 33/100..

I don't get into tire rollout on concrete as much as I do asphalt on foamies...

Tire Rollout: Tire Size x Pie divided by your gear ratio
Example: 4.70 x's 3.14 divided by 3.08= tire rollout of 4.79
That is the measurement of the right tire because it is larger than the left tire.If you need some more setup info tires shocks etc. for Breakout let me know.

Kevin,
Is that what your running at Branford or Echeconnee? What I posted was for Branford. I also left out that I calculate my rollout on caps using only the RR tire size, and i almost always run a S right rear and L left rear at Branford. Also if youve noticed you pull me off the corners and I pull you from the middle of the straights and were running darn close on roolouts, hmmmm.

See Ya! Lee Helander
Velocity R/C

Kevin,
Is that what your running at Branford or Echeconnee? What I posted was for Branford. I also left out that I calculate my rollout on caps using only the RR tire size, and i almost always run a S right rear and L left rear at Branford. Also if youve noticed you pull me off the corners and I pull you from the middle of the straights and were running darn close on roolouts, hmmmm.

See Ya! Lee Helander
Velocity R/C

Thanks for the info and I will try it this weekend.

4.70 Red RR. as of now.

I was gearing a monster @ 108/35 in Breakout. I broke out once running a fairly low line,little above the red line on the inside.

In Nastruck stock I ran a 33/100..

I don't get into tire rollout on concrete as much as I do asphalt on foamies...

Tire Rollout: Tire Size x Pie divided by your gear ratio
Example: 4.70 x's 3.14 divided by 3.08= tire rollout of 4.79
That is the measurement of the right tire because it is larger than the left tire.If you need some more setup info tires shocks etc. for Breakout let me know.

One Question where did you get 4.70 as wheel size is that the total of both rear tires, did change gear ratio to better match yours. I went with a 110/36 car ran good and didn't drop off until the battery dumped. I will try this set-up next week with my race batteries. Thanks again.

I'm reading that the REEDY 767 brushes works very well in both of these motors.

Rowdy,
Dont know were Kevin got 4.70 from should have been 2.50 for a BSR R cap tire, awww hes like that some time :lol: We didnt run stock this past weekend, we went to HobbyWorld in Jax and ran FastTruck ( Nastrucks with 19 turns ) WWwwoooooeeeeeeee! speed is fun! We had a blast :cool:

See Ya! Lee Helander
Velocity R/C
HyperDrive
BSR Tires