Code only prevented line breaks and not strip out or try to parse any code.

??? I was wondering why the equally spaced text columns I used cut-and-paste with didn't line up after the paste. The "code" thing used to work when pasting from DOS or Notepad, but now it looks like space characters aren't the same size as normal letters.

I looked at your message and it seems you didn't have things lined up properly. I edited your messages so they do.

Strange. The editor wasn't showing it to me in the same font as it displays in. I changed the text to courier new and now get the result I expect.

I have enjoyed this hobby/sport since '88. As I age I am looking for more ways to make it more convenient to have fun. I am past the "I just gotta win" stage. Mind you I still really enjoy a good old 'Door to Door' race and have competed in many. Won some and lost some. To me the enjoyment is just being able to still pull the trigger. New inovations are cool, but the step from brushed to brushless is a giant leap forward. Many folks have wanted to and are telented enough to run modified but have been disappointed by the 'Maintenance' factor. "Gee I really want to run Mod but I don't have a lathe, can't solder too good, etc etc. Brushless opens up the opportunity of mod racing to many more people.
The most asked question I get from observers is. "How fast will it Go?", the next question is, "How much does it co$t", and "How much does it co$t to get started"? Then; What is all that stuff for on your work table for"? If you look at this from the standpoint of the person who is wanting to get started, the brushless system makes a lot of sense. Look what habppened when RTR vehicles first came out, we all said that It wouldn't do much for the hobby, and my LHS sells RTR 9 or 10 to 1. The point here is I think we need to adjust our thinking forward to what will increase the amount people involved in our hobby/sport. I know that I for one try to get more people involved at every opportunity.

.....

In GR saturday the brushless guys where have problems with the unit overheating and turning off.It was hot out but the guy they where chasing had a brush motor he was faster and never had to stop for 30sec to cool down.The week before when it was cooler out the brushless was looking great I was think of geting one but now I dont know.A few of the guys had fans on the esc to and they still had problems .

LiPo cells are great for receiver cells and for smaller vehicles like mini T's but they can't source the current necesary for even stock racing at this time. Because of the high current spikes involved, the cells would heat up reducing their lifespan.


Has anyone seen what happens to a LiPo cell when it's dead shorted? It's pretty impressive. Just one of the reasons that they aren't a good option yet.

There are cells in the works that would actually handle the current but they're not LiPo and they're a couple of years out.


I beg to differ, Lipo's can be extremely powerful and will last up to 45 min.s with a Brushless motor. Yes, they can explode or catch fire, but eventually that will be resolved.
Lipo's and Brushless are the future of electric racing. They would make electric much more desirable than nitro. If someone can go just as fast, w/ No maintance, and run just as long, what keeps them away from electric racing?

We all know it's coming, and sometime we'll have to give up our lathes, dynos, serrators, ect... but it will be in best interest of the hobby.

What about Lithium Ion rather than Lithium Polymer?

I have had some experience with them in 1/18 scale. They were 2 cells and i believe had a 7.2v output. They were extremely light as well. They also had a problem with exploding into flames and burning down houses, but it was very rare, and the people it happenned to were probably using a NiMH charger rather than a charger designed to charg L-Ion cells.

Like I said, LiPo batteries aren't there yet. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to improve. There are new chemistries and new constructions in the works that will make this type of cell viable for RC but they're years off.

Here are the three problems with LiPo cells currently:

1) A relatively high internal resistance means that the cells can't source the 100 amp spikes that mod racing puts on the cells (70 amps in stock) unless you use 3-4 packs in parallel.

2) High current draws and heat greatly reduce the life of LiPo cells. Not that the current GP's last forever but who knows how long these things will last at an average of 30-40 amps. The plane guys don't see the huge spikes that we do so this is less of an issue with them

3) The risk of fire after a crash is the one thing that will keep these cells out of the RC market. It only takes one person getting burned to kill these cells in RC. It's pretty easy for us to say that it's the user's fault for bad wireing but the insurance companies don't see it that way.



So, yes, new cell technology will make it's way into RC but not for quite some time. The LiPo cells are great and can be used in lower current draw stuff like receiver packs and MiniT's. But no, they aren't ready for 5 turn Orion motors yet.

Brushless motors may be better suited for LiPo but who knows...

So, how'd you get the TurboDyno numbers Kevin? Did you just hook the thing up with the controler set to full throttle? or what....


So how do those numbers compare to brushed motors? I would have thought the efficnecy would have been higher at the higher amp loads...

As for modifying the code... Someone will figure out how to... and I don't really beleive there is one single best way to set the timing advance. Differnt applications might work better with differnt timing... say for instance off road vs. on road... or maybe even differnt for Oval...

I'm not against brushless... I just wish it was more mature technology and that all my wishes for a sytem such as configurable timing, and other parameters were already available in a system that was on the market today...

As for brushed motors running as well as a brushless... well I don't want to get into that kind of a debate... however... There is a $40 limit (or whatever it is) on stock motors with brushes... why is there a $129 limit on burshless motors? Clearly brushed motors and brushless motors aren't competing on the same $$$ level. Or is that $129 for a ROAR legal 'stock' brushless motor, include the controler in that price????

There is a $40 limit (or whatever it is) on stock motors with brushes... why is there a $129 limit on burshless motors? Clearly brushed motors and brushless motors aren't competing on the same $$$ level. Or is that $129 for a ROAR legal 'stock' brushless motor, include the controler in that price????
Well you can't compare $$$ unless you compare Total cost of ownership. If you look at the life span of a brushless and then calculate the cost of a brushed stock motor(s), my guess is you will have a huge savings. The Novak brushless is seling for $80 for the motor and $170 for the ESC. Thats like buying one high end ESC and one good hand wound mod motor. The diferance is you don't have to buy so many motors.

I wonder if there are going to be any limits on the price of 'stock' controlers?

What if commutators were replaceable somehow? If you could have a $129 limit on a stock motor, allowed bearings, and had replaceable commutators, more then 3 segment arms, etc... then the only real cost differnace between owning a brushed motor and a brushless would be the cost of replacement brushes...

Ok, so I don't know how you make a replaceable commutator... but my point is, that comparing brushless costs to brushed costs when you have already severely handicaped the stock brushed motor is not nessasarly fair either. Who knows what kind of brushed motors we might have if the technology hand't been restricted over the years...

but then you do still have other negitive things relating to brushes and mechanicaly locked timing.

Glenn - I'm not sure where the $129 number came from. Like Fish said, they sell for $80 now. Maybe that's Novaks "suggested retail price" that no one actually pays. (When's the last time you paid $40 for a stock motor?) Hacker's list price for a motor is $179, ESC is $259. I don't know about any of the other systems out there (not even their names).

To dyno it I used:
1-A brushless motor & ESC
2-A radio system
3-A rubber band
The rest I leave to your imagination. :)

Compared to standard brushed motors (run through a Quantum Pro Sport), the brushless had about 5-15% better efficiency at up to 30 amps, then fell off at the higher numbers (possibly due to voltage drop in the ESC). Power wise, it was higher than a 19-turn (188W max), and less than a 14-turn (212W max). The interesting thing was, the 10-turn I tested only made 2 watts more than the 14-turn when run through the speed control. Also of note: Monster stocks DO NOT LIKE being tested at 45 amps! Anything above 35 produced less power than the step before it.

My UNOFFICIAL scoring of the "A" main winners this season at Grand Rapids has: Brushless-8 Brushed-5

Here are price's for brushless.

http://www.teamnovak.com/products/price/price.htm

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0091p?&C=CKF&V=NOV

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0091p?&C=MJE&V=NOV

Not bad price's. 224.99 for a complete system.

Compared to the following:
LRP Quantum Comp 2 - $179.95
Trinity Mod Motor - $59.99
Total - $239.94

Novak currently have two bl systems. Can you get one system and just buy the other motor that way you will have 1 controller a "stock" motor and a modified motor? Or will you need a system for each type of motor?

The current Novak brushless ESC will run both of the motors that are out now. Look for a new ESC from Novak soon that will run the hotter motor outlined in the ROAR rules. I would assume that the new speedo would run the other motors as well.

The $40 and $129 comes from the ROAR rules and represents the maximum price of a stock brushed motor and a 'stock' brushless motor respectively.

The dyno numbers are impressive Kevin. It probably is the controler that is hindering the proformance above 30 amps... Which brings up the fact that there is likely still alot of room for improvement in controlers...

I also still wonder if ROAR has any intentions of regulating the cost and other items related to the controler used in the 'stock' brushless catagorey. I mean after all the controler really will be the biggest factor in proformance since all the motors are virtualy the same.

I think you will see the manufactures have a lot of room for now in developing the controller. I would not expect to see a cost or even spec control on the controller as that would be very difficult to evaluate. It’s far easier to control the spec on the motor it self much as they have done with brushed motors.

What I think will be really interesting is to see if who is going to build what. Novak has built a complete system and has the marketing to get it out to the masses. Who else will? Most motor builders just build motors and not electronics, will they still build motors and let others build the controllers? Could be interesting seeing as there will be far fewer motors sold for brushless because of the far greater life span of the motor.

If (and I think it does) the controler is largely responsible for the overall proformance of the system, and your trying to create a 'stock' class... then I would think you'd need to find a way to regulate the controlers... I agree that is will be difficult, maybe even close to impossible...

So, then will we have a controler of the month war in the future 'stock' brushless class? That sounds cheap doesn't it? :)

Dyno,
If the controler has as much impact as you think it does (I'm just speculating as i have no idea either) then why when using the same controler with the 5800 and the 4300 you get two drastically different results? I know what some probably thought when they read that-- duh the 5800 is the mod and the 4300 is the stock. But with the same controler shouldn't the stock just destroy all brush type stocks? My answer is no because we had a person buy one and ran it against us and most stock motors running out ran the thing both in corners and straights. So what im trying to get at is that i believe the motor has a more significant resposibilty than the controler with brush type systems. Later--Zack

The motors you speak of have a differnt number of winds if I'm not mistaken. What I'm talking about when I say the controler will be the most significant source of proformance , is when the motor is heavily regulated and standardized... That is, when the motor is more or less equal, the only place there is room for improvement is in the controler... and in brushless motors, the controler is potentialy of very great importance...

With brushed motors, the function of the ESC is not that complex compared to the controler in a brushless system. On ESCs the only way to significantly improve the proformance is by using components that have lower electrical resistance and the ones we have now are extreemly small and have extreemly low internal resistance. With brushless, the controler is responsible for ALOT of stuff, including providing very precisely timed pulses that effectively determin the 'timing' of the motor... they also have the electrical resistance thing that ESCs have but it seems to me they have not yet started using the really high grade components yet...

Meanwhile... I beleive brushless controlers have ALOT of room for improvements and the more popular the systems become, the more heavily companys will invest in development of these systems. Some of the changes will simply be software, and hopefully we can get software updates without having to buy a whole new controler... but there will also be improvements in hardware, making them smaller with less electrical resistance, etc... and you will have to buy a new controler to get those kinds of improvements. If/when a truely better controler comes out, you will need one if you want to go as fast as the other guy who has one, and thus begins the controler wars.

As was orginally stated in the "draft" ROAR rules, they will be tweaked as needed. I would guess if the controllers need to be regulated, they will be. Of course, at this time, all we can do is guess at what is and isn't important. A controller of the month is not much different then the past motor of the month era we went through. The only advantage is the old brushless controller still have value where it was hard to give away an old brushed motor.

Even if a new controller/motor has to be bought every year I think the TCO will even out. I was recently talking to an oval driver that generally does pretty well. I asked about what it costs him to race. He claims that at an average race he will use 3 pair of brushes changing them after practice (2 or more runs) and twice during the 3 qualifers and main (those Putnam brushes are hard on comms). After about 2 months the motor is shot and he has to buy a new one. Total cost for 2 months of racing (9 weeks) is $30 for the motor and $67.50 ($2.50 x 27 sets of brushes) for a total $97.50.

We'll be conservitive and say he only races every other week for a total of 27 weeks (or 6 months). Take the above times 3 and we come up $292 (and this doesn't include the cost of the ESC for the brushed motor)... well over the cost of a complete brushless ESC/motor combo.

I'll be even more conservative and say the cost is even over the course of a year. The next year starts and you need to purchase a new brushless motor/ESC combo. You can take the old brushless ESC/motor combo and should easily be able to get $100 out of it. What would those 3 old brushed motors sell for? Zip? Most likely. Then you are stuck with a year old ESC when a newer and better brushed ESC may have come out.

So in the end, even if a new brushless ESC/motor combo does have to be purchased every year, at the worse it's a wash with a brushed system. More then likely you'll come out ahead.

Good to see some one else looking at TCO. And I think you were very conservative Hank. You never changed the springs, cleaned the motor, cut the comm, cut the brushes, and so on.....

The current Novak brushless ESC will run both of the motors that are out now. Look for a new ESC from Novak soon that will run the hotter motor outlined in the ROAR rules. I would assume that the new speedo would run the other motors as well.
Fred - I'm about 99% sure that the motors specified in the ROAR rules ARE the 2 current Novak motors. The resistance of the windings is close to a "brushed" 15-turn, which is what I'd expect from a 7-1/2 turn "Y" winding. The "stock" brushless is spec'd as 10-1/2 turns, which should make it equivalent to a 21 turn.

zsamples - I haven't seen anyone running the SS4300 motor, so I can't say for sure, but it seems unlikely to me that a motor rated at 175 watts would not perform significantly better than a brushed stock motor. (The review in Extreme RC tested it, and said it's speed was fairly similar, but the low end torque was way better.) Maybe the person running it didn't find the right gear, wasn't handling (or driving?), or maybe ran the speedo in one of the "limited" modes. (Maybe Novak ships the "stock" ones that way??)

One of the "myths" about the Novak system is the belief that the speedo can be programmed to emulate any wind of brushed motor. The truth is that it really has only 6 modes, 3 with reverse (odd numbers) and 3 without (even numbers). The first 4 modes have no limit on acceleration or top speed, with the only difference being how much brake you get initially. The last 2 modes limit acceleration with a ramp function, and limit top speed with a (rather jerky) RPM limiter function.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned by anybody is that the Novak SS5800 runs about like a 12 or 13 turn, which seems to be more motor than most racers are used to having (at least in Michigan Oval and On-Road). So does it really matter to most racers if next month's ESC boosts it to 8-turn performance? (OK, so if it does, I WANT ONE!) They'll still be adjusting to the performance of the "base model".

Dyno- I agree with you that the speed control is extremely important but i believe that companies will come out with "faster" brushless motors (i.e. less winds) first than speed controls just because i think it would be cheaper to produce something the that is more economical to the consumer then something twice as much--i.e. the controller. And if someone bought a $180 speed control just to get that extra .1 of a second I say let him (Just hope he can get all that extra power to the ground first).

kevinm- He may had been undergeared but i doub--it only because he owns the track and he can drive well also. I'm almost certain it was in unlimited because many people had this system before the stock motor release and i rember seeing another one in the package(just motor). So, i doubt he bought a whole system just to try it out. Later--Zack

At the Novak TC race they ran a brushless class. I know that Charlie (won it) told Erik Whippler (finished 2nd) to add some coast brake. This made the car easier to drive by not allowing the motor to freespin. It added enough resistence to make it feel more like a brushed motor that he was used to driving. The class was with rubber tires and they were geared to the moon. Not only for the top speed but it made the cars easier to drive by killing some of the bottom end torque.

I think that the biggest thing that needs to happen is for more people to take up this technology and to start develope it. Look at the current stock motors and how much faster they are now and they are pretty much the same rules that were introduced in 1991.

I think there is very little doubt that for someone who currently runs mod, the TCO is likely to be lower with a brushless system...

I can even conceed that the TCO in the long run will be with brushless even for a 'stock' type class of racing...

I guess my only point in bringing up the issues of comparing the significant differance in $$ limits between the current stock motor and the brushless 'stock' motor. Is that it's not exactly fair to make sound like brushless systems are the answer to all the issues we see in 'stock' type competition... Brushless is NOT going
to be a equlizer like some people think it will be... you will have to buy new equipment from time to time to keep up with advancements... and while in the long run it might be slightly cheaper... I'm sure there will be some new items that we all will have to spend money on, if we choose to try and compete at the highest level... Racing has been and likely always will be at least somewhat dependant on spending significant amounts of money in an a attempt to go even faster then the next guy. Brushless isn't going to magicly change all that.

I think your right that the money at the top levels will not change much be it brushless or brushed. But the top level buys very little and produces even less profit for the makers. Its the back yard basher and the more basic drivers that purchase most of the products. If they can buy one brushless that runs for 2 to 3 years and they barely, if ever touch it, its a far easier sell then what we have today with brushed motors. This is going to shrink the motor market and make the manufacturers adjust there business. This is a harsh reality but one all businesses face.

Here is where I think the biggest push for Brushless sould be-Monster trucks and RTR TOuring cars from Associated, Losi, Thunder tiger. ITs not affordable right now-so that hurts it!!

But in the long run this may very well encourage more bashers to enter racing as they will feel a lot more comfortable not owning a lathe or having a huge selection of motor brushes and springs.

As a side benefit-when those novices show up and the brushed guys watch how fast the novices cars are in a straight line-and how they do no maintenance, it might chnage some of their minds.

Dyno, I completely agree with you on that point. That also brings up an interesting point in my arguement against "handout" motors. With handout motors the person that invests 10s (or even 100s or 1000s) of hours learning how to best tune stock motors will have a decided advantage against the person that isn't very good at tuning motors. If it is a "bring your own" motor race, anyone can "buy" a high quality tuned motor from any number of motor tuners.

Not having handouts gives the racer a choice, they can save some bucks but invest a lot of time learning to tune a motor, thus have more bucks for tires, etc. but less time learning to drive or tune a chassis. Or they can spend the bucks on motors and have more time learning to tune a chassis and learning to drive.

Overall, let's face it, if we aren't spending the money on motors, we'll spend it elsewhere. The vast majority of us have a limited RC budget and we'll darned well spend that budget be it on motors, tires, chassis parts or whatever. What we don't have an unlimited supply of is time... it's how we best choose to use that time is what will make the difference!

I believe the 4300 to very close to a stock motor when in a touring car .I found that it is totally different to drive since there is no braking when you leave off.i also raced the 4300 in offroad and there it is way better than a stock motor I had to run it in limited mode to get traction.

Our 2 local tracks have been racing brushless motors since Novak first made them available . It caught on like a wildfire around here. We have been racing them in Custom works sprint cars and intimidators, touring cars, stadium trucks, and pan cars. They have made racing so much better. We have shattered track records previously held by brushed motored classes. And its because we have the time and money to spend on set-up instead of constant motor maintenance. We have ran into a few rare problems like the magnet coming loose from the shaft but all problems were immediatly fixed free of charge by novak. In most cases they just send you a new sealed system new in the box. These systems are completely different as far as gearing is concerned. We found that in the sedans (which we ran 4 cell against stock 6 cell) we needed to stack and keep stacking on gear to get the speed up to par. The cars kept getting faster and faster and unlike brushed motors, the torque and low end just kept increasing. The drag of the magnets are an advantage in brushed motors for sure though. I guess thats where the got the saying "slow is fast"
I hope to see brushless roar approved. Im sure it will hurt businesses like Trinity, but they have sucked enough money out of my(and every one else's) wallet to survive im sure.

we race them with the brushed motors here and people have used them since march and havent done anything to them cept run um and thats onroad and off

Yeah, for the most part we have not had problems with them. When the systems first came out we had a couple people set them up wrong and they burnt them up as soon as they turned them on. But as long as you follow the set up directions it no biggie. And like I said, novak is great about warranty work.

... There are 5 manufacturers following the basic set of guidelines we have established and will put into place for the next rule book. ....
Would you care to name them? I'm sure the Novak is the one it's based on. The only other ones I've found or heard about are Hacker and Kontronik, but it's not clear from their web sites if their motors meet the spec. I can't even tell if Kontronik has one that's car-sized.

I believe that Orion also has a brushless motor.

I for one am ready to give brushless a try, some day soon. I mean for $240, or so for everything, and motors last close to forever..a no brainer.
for those who claim this is expensive, who are you kidding, I just bought a new keyance speedo, for $200, a new sotcker will cost about 25-35 bucks, with one change of springs, and brushes, I am at a tie with brushless in cost. Now forget what I spent on the lathe an all, just figure the exra motor you need, or 2 or 3 etc. and cost keeps going up.
If Roar and the other bodies, if they follow, keep tight reigns on the spec for different class motors, we can probaly rest assured that peformance will be governed somewhat like they did when timing limits and all came into play.

LI poly really dosent have more rip at all BTW, it has major amps, for the size, IE run time, cuple that with the fact a lipoly you might run in a MINI T, which puts out 7 some volts, is about the size of 8-10 business cards stckd on top of each other, and weighs, less than one AA cell.
you can run all night in 4 min heats on a saturday when you charged on wedsday. ..basicly, if the technolegy comes to us, it will make bateries cheeper, races can only get to be a certain length, or you would spend all weekend to run the classes your track has now.
In theroy you would see the turbo 35 gfx's disaper, in favor of a simple LI poly charger, and you might have two bateries, just so you have a spare.
no more cycling, or zapping, deadshorting, etc, just tun the chassis, like electric was intended to be from the start, especialy stock.
If ROAR and the other bodies got together and aproached the manufacture, to tell them, we want this for a stock class, in a tamperproff, form, this would be easy, to do. with a warenty, that is void if a seal is damaged or missing,
or through tech, a special seal, maybe with a holigram image, that if distorted, you canot run it..period.
Mow you have accomplished what stock racing was intended to be....a race of driving and tuning skills.....tires would be the only real cost factor..no dyno, no big expensive chargers, or battery mainteainence gear, just one system, a couple of batteries, and a charger.....hmm sounds kinds like back around 86' or how it seamed to be back then.

for those who say "if we go too brushless I will quite" well I say, "sorry you feel that way...mind the door on your way out".....I mean finaly something with a great potential to HELP the hobby grow....I know change bring fear, fear of the unknown, and all, but do you realize how many people come to a track, they heard about, that people have a bast racing little cars, to see if they might want to give it a try...then are scared away buy all the people, (my self included, I'm guilty) with thousands of dollars in high tech go fast gear filling a pit or two...most of those folks figure, man I might as well get into raceing real cars, for all that expence.
NOW eliminate the dynos, big expensive chargers, and battery trays, and what do we have left? a simple charger, some tools, and a soildering iron, for a repair, if needed....I for one have 15 stock motors in rotation, that is a lot of greenbacks in motors, I didnt buy them all at once, but I didn't buy them to impress people either, I bought them to help me stay competative, if they had cost 25 each, I have $375 invested just in motors, and as I said before $200..In one speedo, I have another I spent $180 one......that is $740 total, for two cars, one for paved, one for carpet.....for brushless I would have under $500 in both cars power plants...for an indentical investment as above I would have an entire spare system, that only requires, I not abuse it, for maintenance.
I alos sell motors, and accecories for a living, and have to admit, I'd feel like a chump, trying to convince other to stay away from BL motors...the hobby busniss will still be there, it will simply shift gears, bearing will be around for a long time, as will tires, tuning aids, parts, etc.
Hank and I rember the days when the family car had to be tuned up twice a year to keep it running right, now we have cars that go 100K mile on a set of plugs.....this is R/C's graduation into it's version of electronic ignition...thats about the size of it...people then scoffed, why replace a $4.00 set of point with a $200 dollar electoro gadget.......anyone one care to go back?

You'll command more respect with some decent spelling skills.

oval4ever,
I wouldn't dump all those high tech chargers and dischargers just yet. From what I hear even if everybody goes brushless, then everyone will be wanting those high voltage cells and runtime, like they do now. So really if you think about it the only way your coming out is on the motors, brushes, springs. Not everyone has dynos.
I've heard of some people running the LI poly batteries in planes, only to have them start fires and burn up a bunch of stuff. Weather it was the charger or something else they did, I don't know.
There may be a day when there is nothing but brushless, but until then I have no problem with the way things are. Sure they take the guess work out of the motor deal, but thats about all they do. You will still have people with good packs and people with great packs. Usually after I have run a couple of motors I give them to someone that may be a little down on power or theirs is just worn out.

NO motor maintence how boring is that! This is a hobby, That means you spend time with it. I enjoy sitting in my basement to try and get the motor to work well. If I wanted to show up at the just put it down and run I would get a car from radio shack. I have not tried brushless but am not interested in it. I welcome a class for it but I am against the dumbing down effect RTR and maintence free motors are trying to racers today

I personally would love to give brushless a try. The thing is that you can't tweak your motor, and there is no maintinence. I think it is great that it is maintenence free but that gets boring. Besides if you had $250 you my as well but a Matt Francis 2! :thumbsup:

and u said i needed to pay attetion in class :jest: again here is u -> :tongue:

gee that made sence!

attetion? I hope you mean attention! :jest:

NO motor maintence how boring is that! This is a hobby, That means you spend time with it. I enjoy sitting in my basement to try and get the motor to work well. If I wanted to show up at the just put it down and run I would get a car from radio shack. I have not tried brushless but am not interested in it. I welcome a class for it but I am against the dumbing down effect RTR and maintence free motors are trying to racers today
I respect your opinion,I look at it as a really fast!!!!!!!!! spec. class Having a brushless lets you focus on your vehicle's setup and driving versus building motors and maintaining them. I go to the race track to play, not work,like I do all week.
I have a dyno I like to go fast. But I also like to go to the race track and socialise and relax with my buddies. I like my brushless a lot, Especially Outdoors. This will save people lots!!!!!! of money Too!! 30+packs and still running good. I can run with the gas trucks and beat them on the race track!! :thumbsup:

Our 2 local tracks have been racing brushless motors since Novak first made them available . It caught on like a wildfire around here. We have been racing them in Custom works sprint cars and intimidators, touring cars, stadium trucks, and pan cars. They have made racing so much better. We have shattered track records previously held by brushed motored classes. And its because we have the time and money to spend on set-up instead of constant motor maintenance. We have ran into a few rare problems like the magnet coming loose from the shaft but all problems were immediatly fixed free of charge by novak. In most cases they just send you a new sealed system new in the box. These systems are completely different as far as gearing is concerned. We found that in the sedans (which we ran 4 cell against stock 6 cell) we needed to stack and keep stacking on gear to get the speed up to par. The cars kept getting faster and faster and unlike brushed motors, the torque and low end just kept increasing. The drag of the magnets are an advantage in brushed motors for sure though. I guess thats where the got the saying "slow is fast"
I hope to see brushless roar approved. Im sure it will hurt businesses like Trinity, but they have sucked enough money out of my(and every one else's) wallet to survive im sure.
Well it's nice to see that it is catching on. I agree with you 100%!! :thumbsup:

Novack GT-7 =$140.00
4 stock brushed motors =$120.00
misc. Brushes and springs =$60.00
total to conservatively race a indoor season =$320.00





1 $230.00 Novack brushless motor system =Priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:

I used to go on about my brushless motors in these forums a year and a half ago when we first started racing them at our local track. And I would get critisized and laughed off the forum. They said - those are not roar leagal so who cares- and nobody runs them at my track- Well they are gonna be roar legal now! And more and more people at tracks everywhere are racing them. I think they can co-exist with brushed motors. We have made it work at our track. The die hard brush guys like thier brushes and thats fine. I can respect that. I like running against brushed mods because while im tweaking my chassis between heats an making it handle like a slot car, the brush guys are changing motors , brushes, etc...make my job that much easier.

Thats just outdoor racing though. Im sad to say that I cant make my sedan go as fast with a brushless as it will with brushed. I can gain a lap or so by using a stock brushed rather that a 4 cell brushless set up. Its actually slower and heavier but its faster on the lap timer. And thats what counts.