Okay, you posted the quote, what are your feelings about its content? And a happy Fourth back at'cha, my favorite day of the year, better than Christmas to me.

John O.Fair enough. 747 spilled the beans, dang it. I pulled from that lengthy quote the material that "worked" for my agenda of "support our soldiers by not trashing their efforts." Propaganda should always be backed up with some 'facts.' Take a few words, or a few clips of video and you can make any case for almost anything !

Mr. Michael Moore understands that principle, as well, so do seasoned politicians for that matter. When in doubt, investigate the facts from a lot of sources, hmm? It disturbs me that an amazing number of people are just blindly accepting this film as irrefutable FACT.

Is our national confidence and self image so low that we are not only willing but EAGER to believe the worst of our leader's motives and long range political goals????????????

John O - in so far as my beliefs on this war? Sometimes war is simply necessary - logical or not, justified or not. Not all that different from Jr. High aged kids in a structured public educational system. (Yeah, we warehouse kids) Put in all the peer mediation groups you want, counsel from the counselor, outside agency interventions, and still.........explosive acts of violence occur, despite all logic and justification.

It's my observation that it usually comes down to saving face as the sole factor for the violence - things reach a point in the rock throwing that "there's no going back" despite the efforts of many for an amiable resolution to the original conflict.

I don't LIKE war, what mother does really, yet the pragmatic side of me accepts that it's past the point of saying we don't want to play anymore and we'll just take our toys and go home now, thank you very much. War is here, like it or not, and our soldiers morale doesn't need to hear America yet again waving it's dirty laundry, internal paranoia, self doubt, and low national esteem all over the world. Smacks of "victim" behavior to me.

Propaganda is what it is, and it can be a useful tool, when necessary, to pull people together rather than tear us apart. Again, wishing all of you a heart felt safe Independence Day celebration :wave:

Dang it 747. :lol: Ok. here is the lengthy quote from which I pulled the passage that fit my propaganda needs. If ya just came in to this post, ya need to scroll back up to my post above, and read it for this post to make sense I guess?

"As Americans, we have a right to question our government and its
actions. However, while there is a time to criticize, there is also a time
to follow in complacent silence. And that time is now.

It's one thing to question our leaders in the days leading up to a war.
But it is another thing entirely to do it during the occupation of a
country. Once the blood of young men starts to spill, it is our duty as
citizens not to challenge those responsible for spilling that blood. We
must remove the boxing gloves and put on the kid gloves. That is why,
in this moment of crisis, I should not be allowed to say the following
things about America:

Why do we purport to be fighting in the name of liberating the Iraqi
people when we have no interest in violations of human rights—as
evidenced by our habit of looking the other way when they occur in China, Saudi
Arabia, Indonesia, Syria, Burma, Libya, and countless other countries?
Why, of all the brutal regimes that regularly violate human rights, do
we only intervene militarily in Iraq? Because the violation of human
rights is not our true interest here. We just say it is as a convenient
means of manipulating world opinion and making our cause seem more just.

That is exactly the sort of thing I should not say right now.

This also is not the time to ask whether diplomacy was ever given a
chance. Or why, for the last 10 years, Iraq has been our sworn archenemy,
when during the 15 years preceding it we traded freely in armaments and
military aircraft with the evil and despotic Saddam Hussein. This is
the kind of question that, while utterly valid, should not be posed right
now.

And I certainly will not point out our rapid loss of interest in the
establishment of democracy in Afghanistan once our fighting in that
country was over. We sure got out of that place in a hurry once it became
clear that the problems were too complex to solve with cruise missiles.

That sort of remark will simply have to wait until our boys are safely
back home.

Here's another question I won't ask right now: Could this entire
situation have been avoided in the early 1990s had then-U.S. ambassador to
Iraq April Glaspie not been given sub rosa instructions by the Bush
Administration to soft-pedal a cruel dictator? Such a question would be
tantamount to sedition while our country engages in bloody conflict. Just
think how hurtful that would be to our military morale. I know I
couldn't fight a war knowing that was the talk back home.

Is this, then, the appropriate time for me to ask if Operation Iraqi
Freedom is an elaborate double-blind, sleight-of-hand misdirection ploy
to con us out of inconvenient civil rights through Patriot Acts I and
II? Should I wonder whether this war is just a means of distracting the
country while its economy bucks and lurches toward the brink of a
full-blown depression? No and no.

True patriots know that a price of freedom is periodic submission to
the will of our leaders—especially when the liberties granted us by the
Constitution are at stake. What good is our right to free speech if our
soldiers are too demoralized to defend that right, thanks to
disparaging remarks made about their commander-in-chief by the Dixie Chicks?

When the Founding Fathers authored the Constitution that sets forth our
nation's guiding principles, they made certain to guarantee us
individual rights and freedoms. How dare we selfishly lay claim to those
liberties at the very moment when our nation is in crisis, when it needs us
to be our most selfless? We shame the memory of Thomas Jefferson by
daring to mention President Bush's outright lies about satellite photos
that supposedly prove Iraq is developing nuclear weapons.

At this difficult time, President Bush needs my support. Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld needs my support. Vice-President Dick Cheney needs
my support. It is not my function as a citizen in a participatory
democracy to question our leaders. And to exercise my constitutional
right—nay, duty—to do so would be un-American."

I Should Not Be Allowed To Say The Following Things About America. (http://www.onion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4026) from "The Onion". (http://www.onion.com/)

i·ro·ny

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.

Dang it 747. :lol: Ok. here is the lengthy quote from which I pulled the passage that fit my propaganda needs. If ya just came in to this post, ya need to scroll back up to my post above, and read it for this post to make sense I guess?Well, gee, almostvirgin - that's a horse of a different color, isn't it? Thank you for the entire ironic post, which gives the little snippet you originally posted much more contextual sense. I honestly couldn't fathom how anybody who was being serious could possibly use the terms - "... there is also a time to follow in complacent silence, ... another thing entirely to do it during the occupation of a country, and, .... our duty as citizens not to challenge those responsible for spilling that blood." I mean, I've heard a lot of mindless sloganeering to justify this war, but the wording here was just a little too poetic and articulate. Now that I know that the writer was actually saying exactly the opposite - I understand the wording. You scared me there for a little bit.

I saw "Fahrenheit 9-11" today. It is my recommendation that everyone who plans to vote in November go to see it. If you already know who you're voting for, it's unlikely that it will change your mind. But I guarantee it will make you think about some things that you probably haven't considered about this war - and I don't see how that can be a bad thing for any American citizen. Once again, Happy Independence Day to one and all.

I can be a little bit of a stinker sometimes. :)

Yep. I'm gonna go sit on the porch with my constitutionally guaranteed shotgun and try to hit the bottle rockets my a$$hole neighbor fires off. :D
Either those are huge bottle, rockets, you are a He77'uva shot, or you're shooting them while they are still in the bottle!:)

I find it easiest to shoot them just before he lights them :lol:.

Turn a garden hose on them and the fireworks. Whats he gonna do call the cops who will also fine/ticket him for the fireworks???

Only TWO people saw this fine film and this discussion is 8 pages...Wow....This movie should be viewed by all...It really fired me up to go out and pioneer.

And WOW this discussion stopped about 2/3rds of a year ago. Must be a boring night in the good ole U S of A.

Well, I JUST saw the movie tonight...