I am going to be there with my electric buggy, so if any of yall want to come show me how it is done come on! Besides I know yall dont have anything better to do.

MODIFIED check the Ala post!!!!!!!!!!!

We love Whippin up on Sippi Folks.HAHAHA

Tony(1BadWedgie)


Careful Tony:devil: I'm gonna break out that new can of whoop-a$$ since I'm from sippi!


At least when I can afford that new can :jest:

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I did not mean to step on any toes, Sorry about that, i was just making a mear suggestion. I also in no way mint to affend anyone in the gas class. I am not quitting the gas class. I am just trying something different. I know that out of all the classes that we have the one that never has any problems is buggy. I did not in anyway try to start anything by bringing up mod motors. I thought that it would be fun, sorry. So, I will bring what is appropriate for our track. Now there is no reason for people to get so mad over suggestions. That is how good things get started as well.

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tommy check pm

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This may suprise a lot of people. Ed Hill finally sent me the applications to have all the regional and state events for ROAR for this year. But as I suspect nobody from here will attend. If they do I would be suprised. Being it's on-road, off-road, and the big oval.

Dates will be posted at www.roarracing.com

Where would these races be held?

At Small Cars Unlimited.

Well I do not have a on road car, but what are the other classes, for dirt. and is there any dirt oval?

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What are all the off road classes?

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Christ Tommy... You gotta lightenup on the negative waves. Life is good and racing is fun. Nobody wants anybody out of racing. Really. But damit man. Go back and reread my question and your two posts and see if you've offered any positive suggestions or disscussion. You're right, ROAR doesn't have a class for brushless and if you go back and reread my post a 3rd time you will see we are trying to make some rules that allow folks to run the brushless and brushed motors together. ROAR hasn't been any help in this area.

By the way aren't YOU ROAR? Aren't you the district VP? What steps have YOU taken to incorperate brushless into the ROAR rule book? Why am I asking these questions and you seeming to try and shoot them down?

Unless ROAR makes a class for it, or they discontinue stock motors, there is 100% no way I would own one. Why would want something that I could only run in Meridian.
To answer your question, it sounds to me like brushless would be a bad choice for you and the good news is, you don't have to run brushless in this class. I would recommend you run a brushed setup. Maybe in a backword way you have answered my quesiton. There is a ROAR 19 turn class. Maybe we should specify folks have to run them or the NOVAK. That way they could take their brushed 19 turn truck to other tracks and still run in Meridian. Would you enter the class then?

Bill Vail

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OK one at a time:

I don't run trucks.
I don't know what to say about this. Why are you weighing so heavy (and unconstructively) on a class you have NO intention of running under any circumstance?

And i don't think it needs to be in the buggy class.
No shi*. How does that relate to anything I asked? We agree on this point.

It seems to me your designing the class around your needs.
There was NO truck racing in Meridian before I started the brushless class. We hadn't had a single entry for many months before starting this class. I'm trying very hard to make this OUR class. If it were MY needs I promis you I can out spend you and after 20 years of car racing and 35+ years of modeling I don't need a spec chassis class. In fact I have two very powerfull Hacker brushless motor that are not installed in anything right now. I opened my wallet and layed out 240 to level the playing field. I'm trying to build a class that EVERYONE can race in for a minimum investmet of time and money. You'll forgive me but I take offence at your suggestion. I think it's out of line.

As for me and ROAR, the track is ROAR sanctioned so it's up to the owner/operator to enforce the rules.
What are the ROAR rules on brushless? What rules should the owner operator enforce? Just ban brushless because ROAR (and it's VPs) hasn't put them in the rule book?

and a 19 turn doesn't put out 194 watts.
I only know what I'm told:
http://rccaraction.com/rc/articles/reedy_ti.asp
http://rccaraction.com/rc/articles/trinity_P94.asp
http://rccaraction.com/rc/articles/TrinityD4_01.asp
http://rccaraction.com/rc/articles/element19t.asp
Also, I'm not SURE we need a motor limit at this time. I'm only soliciiting input before it gets out of hand. At the moment you could understand if I said I regret asking.

and in Sept. when all this ROAR crap is over, I still will not be for it.
You know there was a time not to long ago there was no 1/10 scale gas. In fact there still are no ROAR rules for gas oval truck. If we waited for ROAR we wouldn't race brushless OR gas Friday night. We get it. You don't like trucks and don't like brushless and you don't like gas. I STONGLY encourage you to stay in stock buggy. If you have a suggestion on how we can fairly incorperated brushless racing into a e-truck class please do so.

The brushless has been designed for on-road and some asphalt/concrete racing. When they run it at the off-road Modified Nationals it will be for tests only.
And the B4/XXX-b/T4/XXX-T/XXX-NT trucks were designed for jumps and to turn right. What's your point? We shouldn't use this equipment for dirt oval racing? I'm not sure I follow. The Brushless has no future in an Associated truck? You're not suggesting because in wasn't designed for dirt oval we can't use it are you? By that standard we shouldn't race the B4 on oval. Ever.

Bill Vail

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Guys I'm not going to make it this Friday. Clint(myboy) has just got to finally eat something. I'm just going to race around here just in case I'm needed. The next weekend I'll do my best to be there.

Tony (1BadWedgie)Brothers

That's good news Tony.
Hope he keeps getting better.

i have a little insight to add. first and foremost this post IS NOT directed at or towards ANYONE.
this past friday night at the track i saw these two guys from T-town running there mod motors, yes they were quick. i asked them what they were running etc... i think everyone knows what they were running from post here and bama thread.
OK, so i asked them to let me know when they would run them again so i could run with them. and we did.
Tommy, Tony and everyone else there stopped and watched. as usual my truck was a lilttle loose so my turns were sloppy.(they were killing me in the turns) in the straights they were pulling away alittle. IMO they were by no means blowing my doors off.
the other post i've seen here and on bama thread say otherwise. please correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't see it that way. 2 1/2 minutes into running, the leader was 3/4 a lap ahead of me and the other was 10 r/c truck links ahead of me. as stated above they were killing me in the turns (sloppy driving/setup on MY part) after around 3 minutes there trucks looked like they were pulling cinder blocks.(no offense meant to the guys OR there equipment)
what i'm trying to say is if we let them run there motors, all the brushless would need to do is run GOOD lap times and stay out of there way until 3 or
3 1/2 minutes. and we could still have a great chance to win at the end. of course it may not work out that way! something EVERYONE in the truck class KNOWS is that the brushless powered trucks can, and do, run faster lap times at the ending seconds of the race as were ran at the begining.heck after the few minutes they ran and picked up there trucks that had dead batteries. i ran around the track another 5 or so minutes.
a five minute race would asure IMO that those motors wouldnt have a chance.
why spend alot of money on a low turn mod motor, and better batteries? the class isnt meant for that.
a GOOD 19turn with the right gearing can and has beaten a brushless truck. i dont understand why everyone seems to think they need a 6 turn single to compete in the BRUSHLESS truck class, the setup (novak 5800SS)being promoted is a close to stock brushed setup.
please, don't bring a GUN to a KNIFE fight.
if this is a brushed vs. brushless battle, i've got a boat with a AVEOX 3630 brushless that i could put in my XXX_T i believe it would do the job if i could keep the front tires down.http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/images/icons/icon10.gif

here let me show it in action.
http://www.rcflix.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=457&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

sorry, couldn't help myself.

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ok, let me say that the brushless truck class does have rules. offroad truck rules are what we are going by. no wings, other than what ROAR specifies as a rear spoiler wing. etc..... the ONE rule that isnt being followed is the motor/speedo.
i am standing up to say that i don't mind someone running a mod brushed motor,
but there should be a limit, truthfully we should have seen something like this coming and made a brushed motor limit when the class was started.
like it or not the brushless has a lot of good attributes that are being forgotten. efficiency, no maintance, etc.. i like the run it all night then hang it on the wall till next weekend factor with mine. thats not to say that everyone should run one because i like mine.
stock buggy has rules and people in that class get on edge when someone wants to run mod motors, or foam tires, etc..
i dont want low turn brushed mods, or foam tires in the brushless truck class either.

a little note of why i make this stand is for the fact that i DONT like TRINITY, or Ernie Provitti. i dont want to use his products if at all possible. he has done great things to help this hobby, and also went to great lenths to hold it back.

i think the best way to handle this is to say nothing lower than maybe a 16 turn. people at the track last friday night saw that the low turn mods had the advantage in the first few minutes and lost power as time went on. i dont think we should (brushless) have to play catch up in a class that is named after our motor speedo combo. there are brushed motors that will and have ran side by side with the brushless through the whole race. and i'm not sure if we should rule out maybe a 18, 17, or 16 turn.
a 19 turn needs to have almost dead on gearing, and coms cut very frequently to be competitive IMO.(your mileage may vary)

as far as dnyos, they all seem to come up with different #'s, and always have. one uses brand x dyno, another guy uses brand y dyno. and some dont use the same input voltage, etc... from what weve all been told 2 dynos from the same company usually wont give the same #'s dynoing the same motor.

Tommy,

I found that link when doing researching before asking for help. You are completely correct that dyno numbers will not be enought to make these rules. For the record, all the specs. on trinitly's sight are tests at 5 volts. I know you know this but for the sake of others, a 6 cell pack is well over 8 volts fully charges, rated at 7.2V and considered dead at 5.4 (.9 v/cell). 5 volts is a valid test for effeciencly since in a race environment you will not be at full throttle for long perionds of time. You may average 5 volts over the course of a lap and it is valuable to know your motors performace in these conditions. 5V is meaningless when testing power. It's like asking what kind of power little E's NACAR makes at 1/4 throttle. What power does a funny car make idleing at the start line. There IS a number but who cares? The links I posted were test at 7v.

Clint, I think what I hear you say is that you would consider extending the race length to level the field? That was one of the suggestions in my first post. If we ran 2 min heats the brushed motors would have a clear advantage. If we ran 8 min heats the brushless motors would have a clear advantage. Somewhere in between these two is a level playing field. I have considered this but wonder if it would not be less expencive for racers if I just made a 19 turn rule NOW (or after good week end of racing). Mod brushed racing CAN be expencive as folks try and find the right wind motor. At $60/motor it can be expencive to find that the race is now 6 min and your 8 single is no longer a good choice since it is blazing fast for 4 1/2 min and off the track for 1 1/2. Whlie you were a god in a 4 min heat you now need a new $60 motor for a 6 min heat.

I'm leaning toward a ROAR 19 turn rule.. and sooner than later... before it gets out of hand and much money has been spent.

The reason I don't have a truck now, there is no set of rules.
Tommy... Please stop saying that. It's simply not true and gives folks the wrong impression. There is a VERY well defined set of rules that are in COMPLETE compliance with ROAR off road rules. They have been publicly desseminated on this forem, the hobby shop as well as the track. WE have a single rule that is more retrictive than ROAR since we DON't want people running Krazel's (or some other reworked vehicle) in the truck class and we would like to better control the time and money required to enter this class.

To spell it out...Here are the rules in order:
1. All ROAR off road truck rules apply. This is a somewhat meaningless rule since rule 2 is more restrictive. Compliance with ALL of these ROAR rules is covered by rule #2.
2. You must run factory parts for the truck you are running. This does many positive things for the racing:
... reduces the work required by the track owner opperator to ensure rule one is enforced.
... ensures complete compliance with rule #1
... greatly controls cost and time required by racers
... ensures that trucks are not modified in such a way that they cannot be used for oval and off-road racing in back to back weekends
... ensures that a truck that is legal in Meridian is leagal at ANY ROAR track
... offers a different formula of racing than buggy.
... ensures that all components to race in the Meridian E-Truck class are available to all racer at the LHS. No mailorder Ti outdirves from Bangladesh!
3. You may run Novak SS5800 brushless or any brushed motor. The "any" brushed motor is what is being discussed.

Eliminate rule 2 or 3 and you have the buggy class (with longer arms and big tires) and that is what killed truck racing some time ago. That is, it didn't offer anything different than buggy. In short we don't need the same class twice. (opinion)

Bill Vail

well when i was running a 19 turn this is what i did plus new brushes every week.
a 19 turn needs to have almost dead on gearing, and coms cut very frequently to be competitive IMO.(your mileage may vary)

if we allow maybe an 18, 17,and possibly a 16 turn, Casey and Lamar wouldnt have to go though all of that every week. i'm not sure how much they played with their gearing on 19T. i havent asked.
Casey hasn't raced his truck at times because he said he needed to cut his com, or needed new brushes. while he was running a 19T.
i think both of them were trying something lower 16, or 13???not sure.

or we could go to 5minutes and let people run whatever they want, still would play catch up though.

hey guys, a tuscaloosa racer here,was wondering if you guys ran a concrete oval.(nascar) and when you ran.

Would not it be simplier,to have 2 classes.(Brushless Motors.)---- And (Brushed) Motors with a set # of turns.They both have 5 minute heats. could probably draw more people without trying to complicate everything Brushless running with Brushed. For someone will always feel he got the shaft.Just My 2 cent's

Slider,

the whole reason for having a brushless truck class was to make it easier and cheaper in the long run, for new racers to start racing.
truck $215.-250
speedo motor $235.
batteries 3 $105
grand total $555. with cheaper truck AE T4

truck $215. -$250
speedo(gt7) $170
motor $35
batteries 3 $105
grand total $525. with cheaper truck AE T4
now didnt put radio and charger in the mix but i'll try to make my point

so far we have a $25 difference right?
brushless being $25 dollars higher, well it's been proven (at our track) you could run the brushless all night long on 1 battery pack.
i dont think i would try that with a brushed motor even in stock class.
so you could deduct $70 bucks from brushless setup and that would make the brushed setup $45. bucks higher.
for arguements sake lets not deduct the batteries, and fast foward one month in a racers career with a brushed setup.
how much would you spend on:
bearing/bushing oil?
Juice?
brushes?
getting your com cut? (may be free if you know someone with a lathe)
are you sure that you don't need a new motor after a month on that one?

ok, lets fast forword one month on the brushless setup.















hmmmm, it dosent need oil, juice, brushes, com cut, still no power problems.
so it doesnt need a new motor.
it dosent need anything.

so a new racer will only have to worry about truck setup and learning to drive.
that is what we hope to get across to new racers, but that dosent always happen, they usually show up with a T4 RTR, or XXXT RTR, because they are the cheapest.
and with 5 guys in truck class, there isnt much hope for anything other than a compromize between us here.

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You will always have problems with the two mixed together. It is fairly obvious. But In saying that.I wish ya'll the best of luck in whatever you come up with.

Slider... Thanks for commenting. So far we really haven't had any trouble mixing the two. Suprizingly it's been VERY close racing with no brushed motor rule at all! My goal is to keep it that way BEFORE folks spend a lot on motors we may have to regulate.

As for spliting the class into brushless and burshed. I just don't think Meridian can support another class. The car count on a Friday night doesn't justify two E-Truck classes. Meridian is a fairly small community and I think there is room for 3 classes + the MAXX class. A split has been a full-on disaster for CART and the IRL. Nether can get a full field of cars and both are close to bankruptcy. There simply isn't enouth money or interest to develop two good US open wheel racing series and fans are confused over the very similar cars. Compare that to Europe's/rest-of-the-world's F1 which it thriving.

I'm convinced that this is do-able. The AMA motorcycle folks have several "formula" classes of very mixed bikes that run very close together. In motor cross they run 250cc 2-C bike and 450cc 4-C bike together. In road racing you can run a 750 4 cylinder or 900 2 cylinder... and the list goes on. Even here at Queen City Raceway in Latemodel you have a choice of a spec. motor and a weight advantage or forgo the spec. motor and run a heaver car. In the end, I've been given permission to start and run a brushless truck class. If we find the brushed motors have an unfairadvantage we will have to make rules. Unlike Clint I don't have a problem with the brushless motors giving up a 1/2 lap at the start of a race and having to race their way back to a win. That to me sounds like a very exciting race. For all the reasons Clint listed I think the brushless is a really great choice but I don't want it to be a brushless or loose choice. I know that no matter what rules we come up, the bruchless choise will be a much less labor intencive and much less costly night of racing for a win. Evey time a run the class I ask folks what they are running for a motor and they very often say "a tired _____" or "a ______ that needs to be freshened up". I never get that answer with brushless. I can also completely understand folks that don't want to invest $235 USD in a class that hasn't been adopted by ROAR and isn't raced outside of Meridian. The great news is you don't HAVE to run brushless in the brushless class (although I think it's a great choice:-))

I also know there will be some great racing as we figure it out.:D
Bill Vail

To late there Bill I am one of the guys for Tuscaloosa and I have already spent the money on the motor. The reason that the batteries were dumbing was that I did not have the correct gear on it. I just got the motor before I came over and did not have time to find the correct gear. I really would enjoy trying to run stock truck over there one Friday night. Thats what we run here and I really enjoy the racing. As Slider says "that my 2 cents worth" later guys.

Michael

I just want to say, I know that there has been alot of argueing on this sight, I do not think that is would this sight is for. It is a discussion page, and some place for us to go to get some help, I know there is a fine line between a good discussion and just arguing. Now the reason I am posting is to say that if you were not in Meridian Friday night at the little car track you missed some of the best racing that has ever been on that track, in my opinion. The gas truck had 4 trucks and was unbelievable. In the first heat Bill and I made 50 laps and clint finished third with 49 all of that was faster than the track record. Don our LHS man who bought a gas truck this year ran the best I have ever seen him, making some awesome lap times. The monster trucks battled wheel to wheel all night with savage, RC 10 GT, and a t-max, you could not pick the favorite. Clint went on to win the gas truck A-main, and I accidently took out Bill, Dude, I am still sorry about that. If you were not there you should have been!!!!!!!!!!!!!!It was the most fun that I have ever had racing. Congrats to all the winners and everybody there for making the night so much fun.

yes it was some good racing.VERY clean most of the night. not a lot of flexin' the lexan.

congradulations Ryan for setting the new track record in gas truck, 50 LAPS in 5:00min.

Now these are the post ya'll are suppose to be writing. Glad everyone finally had a good night of racing.

Tony

No Buggies?

All of the buggy guys were out of town.

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hello, Mr.... Mr.... Jones, you must of had a thing goin on' LOL.

should have been there last friday comp was there in the form of a HPI savage, with a Mach .26!!(losi's new LST motor)
his tires looked like they where 1 inch wide when he got on it!!(BALLOONS)
later,
Clint

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Mr Jones,

E-Truck... You got the rules nailed. (The only exceptable brushless is the Novak 5800)

Buggy... Argain, you got the rules nailed. Specifically, ROAR rules. To the best of my knowledge the full body cars ARE ROAR legal.

Gas truck... I'm confused by the confusion. First, there are no ROAR gas truck oval rules so we run ROAR off-road rules and allow 12 turbo motors or 15 pull start motors. We allow .15s because that is what the Associated and Losi RTR's come with. To outlaw .15s would eliminate the RTRs. We played with the sprit cars for a while but they were (are?) their own class within a class. Again, ROAR does not specify a wing or side dam size for gas oval truck and we have decided that large wings should be allowed because they make the truck so much easier to drive. It's a bit of a slug fest in the G/T class anyway and wings really seem to help in this area. If you've ever driven one with and then without a wing you know what I mean. This past week we had a good first heat (Ryan didn't hit anyone... Clint and I were right behind him and Donald broke ;-)) and Clint, myself, and Ryan all finished on the same lap for a new track record of 50 laps. The only reason I mention this is that Clint bought his Losi truck last week (!), put a wing on it, and a good motor and ran 50 (actually 49) laps! Both Ryan and I run a fairly stock Losis with a $175-200 Motor. Yes there are some after market-parts on each of them but none that are not ROAR legal. In short, buy a RTR or Adam Drake put a wing on it and install a Sirio/Rossi/Picco and you're racing! You could even leave the RTR motor in and be VERY competative. Despite the 50 lap heat, I think in only took 46 ish laps to win the main this weekend and folks have run that with stock RTRs. Yes there are some after market parts that improve reliablity and I would recommend them but they ARE ROAR legal. What part of gas truck do you have a question about? I have found that there is very little rules discussion in gas Truck.

Bill Vail