Originally posted by Impactplayr

With some modifications, a shorter king pin, fw rear axle and wheel, a more 1/12th scale style BRP could be built from the SC..... HMMMM can anyone get me a 1/12 style or F1 style body for my SC?????
:dude: :dude: :dude:

Cool idea something like this:
www.geocities.com/rodzzo/f1b.jpg
www.geocities.com/rodzzo/f1a.jpg

DSI....who makes the F1 in the pics?

i think it is KEIL(an AE associate en Germany)
www.christian-keil.com
dont know what scale is?

Well correct me If Im wrong in FW-18 dimesions:D

Originally posted by Impactplayr
It measures---

1.765" from back (inside of front arms) to the outside edge of the steering hub (where the wheel mounts not including axle)

FW has 2.16" from the outside edge of the steering hub to centerline
2.16-1.765=.395 left?

1.206" high at the king pin (which rides completely inside the wheel)

FW has 1.062" if we took in consideration all that rides completely inside the wheel

1.041" high off the chassis with no shims (this can be altered by removing material from the mounting points ( which will raise ride height also) Also this is with the )deg. mount the 10 deg. mount would be taller.

0.969" from the kingpin to the very front of the suspension.


I think Im missing one dimension please look pic...
www.geocities.com/rodzzo/dynstrut.jpg

Originally posted by RAFster

It isn't real light either, a little too beefy for a 18th scale...

With the dimensions stated by Impactplayr i got an idea of the beefy issue... would look like this in a FW18
www.geocities.com/rodzzo/i2.jpg

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Assocaited dynamic front end. I don't mean to rain on the parade but aside from the issues mentioned above concerning the size and weight there is one other issue that caused me to scrap the idea.

I could be wrong but I don't think even with .014 springs the suspension would work. If there isn't significant front suspension movement the dynamic in the dynamic suspension wont do anything. I think the end result would be a car that handles the same, or is loose because of being front heavy, but weighs much more. Also it might just be the surface I run on but my Fun Won tends to be loose not push, so the added responsiveness if the suspension did work would probably just make the car harder to drive.

It might work with the larger motor in the rear to counter the weight of the front, but theres a point that a person might as well just get a 12th scale.

My thought on making an adjustable front end was to make a king pin that was bent 2 degrees. That would allow a person to adjust the camber and caster between 2 degrees caster 0 degrees camber mounted angled toward the back, and 0 degrees caster and 2 degrees camber angled toward the center of the chassis. In a 45 degree orientation you would get 1 degree of camber and 1 degree of caster. I don't know what it would take manufacturing wise, but it would be a simple effective solution that maintains the simplicity of the BRP car.

Would shimming the front suspension plate
do the same thing you want. It is a matter of determining how much to shim. Would the screw holes in the suspension plate require enlarging or slotting to make this work?

So, can you obtain the angle with just
a washer or do you need a thin 2 degree
block set for shimming back and forward...
I'm thinking of a thin plastic shim that
goes between the chassis and the suspension plate.

My old Associated 12i with a mono shock front-end had shims used to get various changes in caster by inserting a shim or two under the center block of the suspension. This would have to be an injected molded piece or it could be machined. Either way it wouldn't be cheap.

So, I guess a nylon or steel washer can
provide the shim angle. You just need
to sit down with the calculator and note pad to determine how high the chassis at the front screw is raised to provide 2 degrees.

Camber is a tougher cookie to crack...

Any thoughts on this?
Having separate front suspension halves would increase weight because it would require more hardware. As well as causing issues for the servo mounting area.

But, you start making massive changes and the inexpensive car starts to take on the life of a smaller 12th scale. The costs go up and up...

David

RAFster - I agree with you about the cost of manufacturing.

I think you are onto something with the shimming the kingpin idea, however instead of having it made; the trick would be to find a shim elsewhere that would work, that way you wouldn't have to deal with manufacturing issues.

Shimming the front plate works but requires a lot of effort relative to a devised kingpin method. It also moves the body mount and servo, it's slight but none the less an undesired effect.

A lot the parts on R/C cars are parts that were manufactured for other purposes. As an example the battery hold down and the belt on my com lathe are both packing rings to seal pipe joints. They cost less than a dime at the local hardware store. There about has to be something out there that will work without a major manufacturing cost.

DSI- my measurements where not off, I was measuring an SC18, NOT FW 18.... Also the one demension you are worried about is unimportant, because it is the one that can be worked around, however the inside diameter of the wheel is much more important and harder to work around.

Myst- the weight will not be a factor to concider because the dynamic strut front end weighs less than the assembled BRP front end with servo. The servo will now have to be relocated to the radio plate which will move the weight rearward.
The "dynamic" part of the suspension is also not a factor because when you use the 0deg pieces there is no dynamic caster to the suspension.
Also the bent kingpins would not work very well, at the lowest point the steering blocks will bid, if you set the pins at 45 deg. angles to give you caster and chamber the steering will also bind when the front end is under compression....

Rafster- Yes the shims under the front steerng plate bolt will work, but measuring exact angle is unneccesary, there is no set "right" caster /kick up angle just remember how think of a shim you used to make the car feel good to you.


ALSO to anyone concerened, the hop-ups are to help the SC and FW grab some of the market from the Micro, the guys that buy micros are mainly looking for hop-ups and stay away from the BRP cars because they figure if noone makes hop-ups the car cannot compete..... Then there are also some of ius that want to hop-up our SC's and FW's just because we can.... personnally I would much rather have a one off custom made by me, so I can say you can't buy that in a store....LOL

Impactplayr - On the pan cars I ran back in the 80's it was the standard method to bend the front kingpins to set your camber. It didn't cause problems because the bend was at the very bottom of the pin. The only reason it cant be done on the SC18 easily, like it was back then is because the SC18 king pins are much more stout. If a person could figure out a way to bend them I'm sure it would work fine.

As far as the camber and caster together causing binding. I guess you could look at it that way but most people just refer to it as bump steer. It won't hurt anything and likely would make the car handle better on rough tracks. Like the 30 degrees caster and 3 degrees of camber on an offroad vehicle, just not as extreme of course.

As far as the weight issue it might not effect the handling but it will make the car heavier and slow it down. I just don't care for upgrades that don't do anything. Without the dynamic caster all I can see that the dynamic front end would do is make the camber adjustable. That's a pretty monumental effort for adjustable camber IMO. If it will get people to buy BRP's I'm all for it though.:D

On the helpful side my 12th scale front's fit on the FW18 just fine. It wouldn't hurt to trim them a bit on a truer so they're closer to the standard BRP size but they will work. On the rear all that is necessary is to trim out the ribs in the center of the wheel Jaco's. The TRC 12th scale fronts should work fine though so the Kinpin length shouldn't be a major problem.

With the solid drag link connecting the right and left steering blocks there would most definately be binding, however if the servo was mounted like a 1/12th scale with the output shaft in the middle and the steering tie-rods set-up like a 1/12th then you would only encounter bump steer......

Bud: Got my order today, thanx....you're pretty fast off the track too!:D Do the motors come with XP magnets in them now? Don't see them listed seperately in the new catalog.
Also - A while back someone offered to cut 16d motors at one of your local tracks.(Chicky??)I'd like to convert a 540 motor lathe to work on BRP motors. I was wondering what kind of set up does the Parma guy use?

K1m>> yes those motors have XP magnets. The motor lathe he has is made just for slot arms, it was a Cobra.

Originally posted by OvalmanPA
Yes Bud I also got the new Xtreme and the ad does look good. The real sickening thing though is just a couple pages after that FULL PAGE ad they have the X best and the best mini is listed as the.........surprise, surprise.........micro RS4 with not even an honorable mention to the BRP car. Sickens me that even a magazine of this caliber can't see past the hopupititus equation with the micro. :rolleyes:

I think an email is in order. :D

I think so too Ovalman....Anybody else out there?
Shoot them an email at Xtreme R/C and tell them to get their heads out of their butts and what you think of BRP's mini.

Email the editor Derek Buono at derekb@rc411.com

Bud,

Do the motors in the kits I purchase a couple of weeks ago have the XP magnets installed?

TIA

RobertW312>> I sent you a email with some ???

I saw the article today.... why in the .... would they even compare a 1/12th to micro cars and how in the .... does the BRP get bumped in favor of the mini-z???? NOT to mention they picked the crappiest 1/12th scale car of all to list!!!!!! I thought Xtreme was honest!! or are is this the one time they where afraid to write the truth!!!

K1M.....I think one of the worst things they did was hire that Derek guy anyway. He and I had a few words on R/C Car Actions message board when he still worked for them. Seems like kind of a dink to me.

Hobby shop has the Xtreme finally, gonna have to drop by and pick up a copy.

I was gagging from all the stench of Bull as I read the Micro RS4 article on Xtreme's website.
http://www.rc411.com/reviews/micrors4-01.html

They claim,
"Top Speed • Top speed of the Micro RS4 was relatively impressive in its stock outfit with a 6-cell. According to the radar gun, the Micro topped out approximately 19mph! Not too shabby for a little guy! Drivability at top speed for the Micro was exceptionally stable for such a narrow stance. "
First of all if you are using a radar gun then why are you approximating the speed? The ramp or hill wasn't long enough? :D :D :D
They had it geared with 11T pinion and stock motor. Didn't RC Cars say the top speed was 16mph?
I've raced against stock Micros and they they are SSLLLOOOOOWW!

I love the fact they gloss over the gluing the wheels being challenging. It is a royal pain to glue the Micro wheels and I have experience gluing sets of Touring car wheels and Tamiya Mini Cooper.


They rate the main competition as:
Main Competition BRP Fun One
They forget the BRP SC18 and they
can't even get the name right...
Fun Wons...

RAFster
David

Another fun night of racing at Racers Edge with 10 in the BuRP class. The micros are really struggling, they're all running mod motors, two of them have a fair amount of purple goodies on them. I got a pretty good look at them tonight, because I was trying to help them get hooked up better. They ended up with a set of Fun Won wheels/tires on the back that did give them some traction (looked like a funny car) but the rear suspension just doesn't seem up to it. The difference in wheel diameter between front & rear couldn't have helped either being 4wd. One guy was beside me at the drivers stand and I'll just say he's pretty fed up with his micro. They take it way to seriously though, most of the rest of us were laughing and kidding each other while we bump and grind. Maybe next week I'll see if that guy would like to try "Da Wedge" for the qualifiers.....

Fearless Prediction.... I think we can get 34 laps with a clean race. So far 32 laps is the most I've got, but I've been making alot of mistakes in traffic.

Hey all we had a fairly good turnout for the BRP cars sunday with 18 racers going at it! I did some testing, it is secret :thumbsup: Later!!!

Aren't you meaning "I think I" can get 34 laps with a clean race? Seems the rest of us are playing catch da wedge every week. :lol:

Ovalman: It's early in the season, I'm sure you guys will catch up soon. My BRP car was ready to race for the glass festival race in September. We didn't race that day, so it's been ready since then. Don is fast, I think he's just less of a hacker than me....:devil: And you know Chris won't give an inch either. We do play rough, but it's all in good fun! One of the biggest frustrations is when two Fun Wons get together side by side and the tires get locked up! Sometimes it seems almost impossible to pry them apart using the throttle.

Bud: Everyone loves a "secret project"!!

k1m wrote,
Bud: Everyone loves a "secret project"!!

We love the results but sometimes the suspense is killer! Makes you think of being a kid on Christmas Eve...

RAFster
David

Finally uploaded some pics of my car:D
Ill try this as a record for changes
www.geocities.com/rodzzo/mybrp.html
(hope it works:rolleyes: )

DSI: Nice looking Fun Wons! I know their tires aren't scale, but there's just something about the big tires that look cool under most bodys. That Nissan looks mean - is the S300 controlable on anything but carpet? Looks like the Lancer is a styrene body(hard) - from a model? What's the width of that body? It's proportion looks good on the Fun Wons.

If use the http:// button when you post, it will work like a link:

www.geocities.com/rodzzo/mybrp.html

Thanks K1m......
...and yes S300 is good on anything but carpet(it is cool for drifting and running over minizees:D )


Lancer is a tricky photo (you cant see thef left side where more than half of the chassis is hanging out) width is 4in, 1/16 scale. Heavy mods have to be made to fit everything in side, but I will loose all vehicle dynamics if I do them.:(
Anyway Im happy with the R390 bashing out those minizs
until the 1/10 guys come and bash me:(

What parts would I need to convert my SC18 to an FW18, I already have the a few SC ball diffs, so can I buy the FW hubs seperate, mainly the left side (drive for ball diff) hub...... About how much am I looking at investing?? I have come to realize that the SC just is too unstable on a bumpy coarse and can't get the speed and acceleration....

If I buy the parts to convert the car, wheels and a new motor will it cost me more than just buying the whole kit and new left side hub????

Let's see...
#303 F.W. front end $15.50
#365 F.W. diff kit (hubs)$25.00
#400 Rear tires (blue) $11.50
#401 Front tires(blu/org)$11.50
#453 F.W. tie rods $ 4.00
I come up with $67.50 total.......I think I'd just buy another Fun Won and have twice the fun!


http://pennswoods.net/~fortner/vw.gif

http://pennswoods.net/~fortner/vw.gif

Impactplayer>> K1M has got it for you! Those guys in PA are the FW experts :p

Who distributes the speed 300 motors???

Well, the gang went down to Classic Hobbies in Akron tonight. We had a great time, with this correspondent bringing up the rear as usual. There were two innovations tonight. First, there was a mod BRP class. This was for big block motors; there were five entries. The cars ranged from a standard BRP with big block side pods to two custom chassis using small batteries. One was a saddle pack arrangement, the other had a side by side pack with the batteries all lined up along the left side (naturally) of the chassis.

These cars were fast! Bud was actually letting off the throttle for the corners.

The other noteworthy item was a 15 car main. Mayhem and destruction were rampant until nearly half the cars had been sidelined by collisions. Both the first and last qualifiers were DNFs.

Impactplayer>>

Speed is the marketing name Graupner uses for Mabuchi motors. The Speed 300 is carried by several companies. Speedster Racing, Hobby Lobby (importer) in TN, and others. (possibly even your local hobby shop) The speed 280 is not the same thing. The speed 280BB is a external brush motor with similar power and torque as the speed 300. I think the general thoughts are the Speed 280BB or Simprop Acro Speed 280BB are really better suited because the torque is delivered in a curve more suitable to the 18th cars.

The Big Block has a capacitor ring and a fancy label by Team Orion for $33+
The Speed 300 is $15ish from Hobby Lobby
or Speedster Racing.
(capacitor ring is a couple dollars or solder your own on...)

The Watt-age 370 motor is the same thing
without the fancy packaging or other info you get in the Speed 300 package.
They sell for $10 at Hobby People in California.

The Speed 300, Big Block, and Watt-age 370 are all Mabuchi 370 motors.
RS-370PH or RS-370SH I think is the Mabuchi model.

RAFster

Hobby Lobby's Speed 300, 400, etc (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/elecmot.htm)

Hobby People website for Watt Age 370... (http://www.hobbypeople.net/prdcls/motorac03.asp)

Speedster Racing web site (http://www.teamspeedster.com/store/motors.php?cat=4&scale=micro&man=999)

Nil >> It's a secret!!!!! I always let off in the corners remember SLOW is FAST.
We all had a great time at classic and I can't wait to do it again. Long haul group was from Sugar grove Ohio 4 1/2 hr drive hope you guys had FUN.

Can the speed 300 or watt-age 370 be ran in reverse so I don't have to have the motor plate on the right side???? This is for a custom car so i don't wat to but the big-block conversion.....

You can run them in revers but they will not be as fast.

What about gearing the Big Block? I would assume a smaller pinion would be better, is the motor shaft the same size as 16d motors?

I swapped cars with a Micro driver today - The one with Fun Won rear tires...It was pretty fast but I couldn't keep it on it's tires. He finished 2nd and seemed impressed with my BRP. I ended up somewhere in the middle of the pack 5 or 6 laps down. It was a blast though, I can't help wonder how my car would run with the HPI mod motor. Next week that Micro will have Fun Won tires front & back. I think one of the micro guys will be buying a BRP. The other one told me he has too much in it to give up on it so we'll try the tires and see.

I'm gonna have to try a Big Block too, I can see it coming!

K1m>> And they just keep putting more in them!!! I would gear the speed 300 9/52 it does have the same size shaft but file the serrations down some.

Bud - I was e-mailed a post from another mini website about Micros wanting to run the Carpet Racing League, but not being able to run 16D motors. The class has been pretty small, so I am very open to discuss making the rules more flexible. I know that we have had discussions about the Micros and allowing them to run, but with no big blocks. Let's make a decision on that and get the word out for Toledo on December 15th.

Keith

Motor city >> Like I said before let them run any of there motors except the big block/ speed 300. We have run against all of them and the 16d is faster.
We will be at the CRL in Toledo and I will se if some others will make the trip. :thumbsup:

Bud,

Have you ran against the brushless motors.
Some of the Micro guys in the search for insanity have started down this road.
The brushless motors deliver insane power for their size but the entry price is huge. The Hacker line of motors has been a recent entry into planes and they have good quality. Even the less expensive Hacker line puts you down $170-200 for the motor and ESC. The ESC for the brushless is also larger than we are accustomed.

Micro racers intent on massive speed have had good luck with the Speed 400/480 size motor as well but, as you have aptly pointed out, you have to be able to turn and not roll the car into a furball!

I don't think you can fit the 400 to a SC18, even with massive pod plate mods. from the axle back you wouldn't be able to have a top or bottom plate without fabricating yet a taller motor plate. The slots for the screw holes should work with the 400 but the top and bottom L's of the plate have to disappear. And the top and bottom plates will be in the way so they have to be redone. So the entire pod would have to be remade essentially. The top and bottom of the motor would have stick out above and below the plates and you'd have hog out the center hole for adjustments. The existing hole in a 300 pod is about the size of the bushing for a 400.
The motor diameter is over 5/32" larger diameter and a much larger center bushing. You will need a large pinion to get it to mesh without interference with the axle. The micro guys have found the 20T works for their gearing.

I'd like to try the Speed 280BB motor, a different motor entirely from the Speed 280. It has external brushes and I think it has bearings. The torque range and power is less than the all out power of the Speed 300. Although this isn't so bad really because the micro racers that
have the 280BB say the delivery of the power doesn't have the wind it up tight and release it rubber band style delivery of power the 300 seems to have and they seem to be close in overall speed. It sounds like the 280BB would be more suited to road courses. But testing this has a entry price of $40 is 1/2 price of a new SC18 from Bud via the website.

RAFster

We have run against the coreless motors and they are still alot slower than the stock 16D.

Coreless is not necessarily the same as a brushless motor. A brushless can be faster than a coreless motor and requires a specialized ESC or controller.

Here's a good explanation:
Q: What is the difference between a DC coreless motor and a brushless motor?
A: A traditional DC coreless motor has a rotating coil or armature and a stationary excitation magnet. The current is supplied to the rotating coil by a mechanical commutation. You can see an exploded graphical view of this technology here. The brushless DC motor has a reversed construction. That is, the coil acts as the motor stator and is stationary while the magnet is mounted on the rotor and rotates. You can see the detailed construction of this motor here. The commutation of the phases in a brushless motor is electronic instead of mechanical as in traditional DC brush type motors. In servo versions, Hall sensors monitor the commutation sequence. Non servo 2-wire brushless motors are commutated by monitoring back emf.

Q: What are the advantages of brushless motor design?
A: Since the phase commutation of the brushless motor is achieved using an electronic circuit, there is no physical wear as there is in the conventional brush/commutator system of brush type motors. This translates into longer life and greater operational reliability, but usually at a higher cost. Since the windings are placed in the stator, which is in direct contact with ambient air, very good thermal characteristics can be achieved. The lifetime of a brushless motor is usually a function of bearing quality. The lifetime of brushless motors is usually in the tens of thousands of hours, instead of the thousands of hours which is typical of high quality brush type motors. Due to the lack of a mechanical brush-commutator commutation system, brushless motors are also capable of very high rotational speeds. Our smallest brushless motor (1.9mm in diameter) has achieved intermittent speeds of up to 250,000 rpm. Speeds of 20,000 to 50,000 rpm and higher are common.


This was taken from:
http://www.micromo.com/library/docs/notes&tutorials/Brushless%20Motor%20FAQs.htm

Naturally, just like our battery use, RC car motors or batteries do not provide the life expectations noted because we load them a rates far above the manufacter's ratings for intended use.

You probably have raced against the expensive coreless motors but the brushless kick it up another notch and generally are faster and infinitely smoother than the Speed 300. But as I said before, the Brushless setups run from $160 and up...
The newer Astro 010 and Astro 020 airplane motors are brushless motors and they deliver incredible performance for their size. But the price is huge. Far greater than their older siblings of the AstroFlight Cobalt motors.

I should add...coreless motors generally use plastic and glue to hold the windings in place. If subjected to high currents and heating in the windings they can cause the windings to catch the spinning magnets and destroy the motor. The Brushless can experience this failure but generally if they are operated in their recommended range they do not experience excessive heating to cause this failure.
The same should be true of the coreless but the load they see varies with gearing and application.

RAFster

WOW!!!!:eek:

Wasser >> How was Lansing? Are you going to make it to Toledo?

Bud,

Who,What,Where,When,Why.....TOLEDO


Pmelchman:p

Bud, as of this point, some holiday plans might get in the way of my attendance at Toledo.

Originally posted by pmelchman
Bud,

Who,What,Where,When,Why.....TOLEDO


Pmelchman:p

pmelchman >>
Don't know if you caught it or connected it since you posted. Bud is referring to the CRL Toledo event on 12/15.
Should be a good turnout...

It would be great to watch. Someone should video tape the A mains at least...
(said as someone who can't be there to enjoy watching the pending battle between Bud's "secret project" and the Reilly's latest.)
If someone taped the qualifiers and mains I'd buy a copy of a tape of it for a price up to $15... Naturally a segment of the video would need to have at least a 30 second view of the prototype cars without their bodies showing top and bottom and side profiles.
Then a shot of all the A main winners with their cars doing close ups to show the paint jobs would be nice.

RAFster

Guys >> We had a good nite of racing at the Hobby town track! 7 BRP's and 3 Micros. I won with the SC18 pro and Don Smolik was second with his SC18. One note of intrest at this race was the mini mod class my time was 4 laps faster than the TQ in that class. Don was 3 laps faster and they were running 19 turn motors, interesting!
David Spachet was in town for the champs and stopped by. He saw the BRP cars which he had not seen before and thought they were pretty cool. I told him they are like the 1/12th cars we raced 10 years ago.