Brian great job @nats.I just got a carpet pro.I will be running
on a 159' flat carpet oval,i also got parts to run standard
t-plate.My question is would the short wheelbase car work there
or should i have gotten mac attack?any setup suggestions would be greatly appreciated.thank you in advance.p.s. infield is 12'

Impact, Brian was running the McAttack, As for your question: When the Carpet-Pro was designed one of the main focus's was Flat-Carpet, And the shorter the track run-line is the more effective the Carpet-Pro will be. On the track your describing, I would tell you to run the Carpet-Pro with the Long set-up, meaning running your front end all the way forword. And with a set of #3's rear axel carrier's this will put you @ a 10" wheelbase

Hey Autodynamix,
When is the actual release date on your car going to be? I have been trying to get information on buying one for a month and I cant seem to get an answer. Can the local ADX dealer get a car now and what is the procedure? The dealer says he cant contact you and I havent been able to either.

brians11- the body that i like best for flat tracks in general is the new HD Monte Carlo from Protoform part# 1223L. about the shocks..you always want to keep the oil the same because they are working together...its not like a 4 shock car in that each shock is independent of each other..when one shock compresses the other moves out so you dont want one faster or slower becasue it will still try to maintain the same compression speed regardless.

LITTLEAL- sorry about that...i dont even know if Racetech still makes that pice but ive never been a big fan of taking steering away from my car and thats what that piece does..it is easier to drive but tends to push a bit more.

Kgb- it used to be that in the event of a tie they used the fastest run of the two winners and not the third main..it used to truly be a throw out but its not that way anymore...no big deal, now you just race for points and pray that you dont break.

Impact- i think you bought the correct car...i would definetely run the type of setup that BZJ suggested...as far as other setups go i would go back a few pages and you can see the type of setup i would run on the car.

What is the wheel base difference in wheelbase dimensions between the Mac Attack and the Carpet Pro. I see the maximum for the Carpet Pro is 10 inches when stretched, how about when it is short? Thanks. I just hope I don't do this :roll: between the boards this summer.:hat:

I've noticed when rebuilding vcs shocks, that the red o-ring in the shock swells about 20%, even with silicone oil. This makes reassembly with the same o-ring nearly impossible. This means you have to buy a 4$ rebuild kit, when all you need is the o-ring. Eustace Moore (MIP) used to sell silicone O-rings for the old Assoc. shock which would fix this problem. Does anyone know of any such rings? Or if Associated sells only the VCS micro o-rings? My LHS does not. Thanks [COLOR=blue]

also ran- you have problems with the o-ring? we have problems with the clip.

for us what happens is you get in accident shock explodes and clip is jacked. $4 for a clip.

hehe i probaly have like a GRIP of orings spare....lets trade!

For me it's the clip (star looking piece) also. I wonder if the shock body could be machined and a circlip or some other kind of retaining thingy installed.

Later,

Tom

Kraig, the diff between the wheelbase length is 1/2" depending where you choose the run your rear carriers?

Alsoran- yes i understand your complaints with the o-ring in that shock..the other thing that can become a problem though is the foam insert...when the shock needs to be rebuilt that should definetely be replaced because it actually starts to shrink as it gets older so it does not compensate for as much volume as it does when its new. this can lead to more air bubbles in the shock.

so now the vcs micro shock problems total the oring, the clip AND The foam....which leaves the shock body and the shock shaft.....NICE!

OK -- I hope one of the "experts" (or anyone, really) can shed some light on this..

From what I've seen posted so far, there seem to be two equally confident, but almost OPPOSITE approaches to this...

1) Run the tray all the way out and all the way BACK. These guys then seem to get the car to steer by using softer front tires, etc, and/or firmer rear tires, etc... They have more static weight on the LR, so they may need less tweak, changes in rear springs and/or oil, etc..? (There have to be many subtle differences, but you get the idea.)

2) Run the tray all the way out and "pretty far" FORWARD. These guys get more static weight on the LF, making the car turn better, but they may need softer rear tires and/or firmer front tires, yada, yada...

OK -- so are both methods equally good? Does one approach work better on "short" carpet ovals, and one work better on "long" carpet ovals? Is one method better for Stock, and one better for Mod...

I'm so confused! :confused:

Heck, even Brad Hayes had two different ADX setups on his web site for 19t at HobbyTown Indy -- They used the same tires, springs, etc., but one was with the 4 cells all the way back, the other was with the 4 cells WAY forward! OH -- and both were TQ runs, within a couple of seconds of each other..? So -- does it even matter?

HELP! :rolleyes:

well tfrahm looks like you have cut to the heart of racing in general.

there is no one best setup....its ALL about setup for YOU. i think brian has mentioned this before....the fastest setup and fastest car is the one that YOU feel most comfortable with. in fact brian has addressed this by saying "i like my cars to be VERY aggressive" "if you like push then that will work"

its kinda like golf that way....all pga approved clubs are the same, NOT A SINLGE ONE offers ANY advantage over the other, its just a feel/mental thing. its the same for tennis, different rackets for different styles. the list is endless every sport has different equip for diff people.

the cars that run the batteries forward tend to be on the more aggressive side and the cars with batts back tend to be on the pushy side, both can be fast.....dont listen to days of thunder (loose is fast) because its not always true.

so the answer to your question is "there is no answer" (there is no spoon!)

Brian, check your email. Have question for you!!

Thanks,
Randy:thumbsup:

KGB+Tome57, I think you'll find, that next time you blow the retaining ring off one of the shocks, while you've got it apart, get out your caliper and measure the old o-ring, and a new one. I'm sure you will find the old one is swollen as I mentioned, thereby creating too much pressure for the "star washer" to retain in a crash. Ever notice how easy they assemble when new, but you gotta push like heck on the tool when the 0-ring is not replaced?
Brian, I agree with you on the foam washer, it does shrink to about half its size.
I DO LOVE THIS FORUM!

The foam in the macro shocks shrinks too. I found this out when I changed oil and the shock would not rebound all the way out. I pulled out the shock shaft and it sucked back in about an 1/8". I thought I did something wrong bleeding the shock. Finally I disassembled the shock and found the foam about half it's original size. This was a shock on a car I bought. I would never let my stuff get that bad... well I gotta go and uhh... rebuild some shocks !

Later,

Tom

Hey Brian, what brushes/cut do you run in your 19 turn motors? I think I remember seeing Putnam stickers on Your car at the Snowbirds, so I'm going to assume it's a blue/green combo? I'll understand if that's information we don't "need to know".:lol:

I don't know about you guys, but I like the VCS shocks a lot better than the old Delta micro's. They do need to to be rebuilt more often, but they go together a lot better for me.

Brian
I have been using a stiffer LR spring the past few weeks (wolfe

opaque on LR, Assoc. blue on RR) with a 6 cell stock on a flat track (HobbyTown Indy). For a track this size do you prefer soft side shocks or stiffer springs?

Todd
I know this is Brian's thread, but you post here so often I thought I'd ask you. I'm using one of your P2K2's and was wondering why you use the vertical slot in the brush. I've heard different opinions on that sort of cut. The motor has been very fast and I'm only two seconds off the track record, but I'm curious.

Thanks,
Brian

I understand what you are saying, and that was part of the reason for my post... In my personal case, I've found a kind of weird situation. At one particular track (Pontoon Beach, near St. Louis), my best runs were with a setup I "didn't like" -- I had the batteries pretty far forward (1.1" on an ADX), and the car was twitchy/nervous/loose. I had to run a TRC Double Blue RF and a pretty hard Blue LF and a lot of LR tweak to get the car so I could drive it -- I was NEVER comfortable with the car, but it ran my best laps ever. Since then, I've "dialed" on the car and moved the batteries back (about 0.4" forward now), and I'm running a Purple RF and a TM Dbl Black LF (about like a JACO black?). The car "feels" much better, it "feels" neutral (no push, no "twitch"), but it is 2 laps slower in a 4 minute race!

The trick here is that "LOOSE" isn't fast, but "free" IS -- so I think you have to find the point where the chassis is as "aggresive" as YOU can drive. This should give you a car that may not be "comfortable", but gives YOU the best performance for YOUR driving style and driving skill...

I have a 2-day race at Pontoon coming up, and I'm going to slide the tray forward a "little" (split the difference between where it is now an where it used to be), and I'm going to work with the side shocks a bit to keep the car flat in the corner. I've also switched from a spoiler to a wing, which seemed to help on a slightly larger track (Chillicothe, Missouri) -- I can free the car up without the "twitch" since the side plates on the wing stabilize the car more.

Originally posted by kgbracing
well tfrahm looks like you have cut to the heart of racing in general.
there is no one best setup....its ALL about setup for YOU. i think brian has mentioned this before....the fastest setup and fastest car is the one that YOU feel most comfortable with. in fact brian has addressed this by saying "i like my cars to be VERY aggressive" "if you like push then that will work"
the cars that run the batteries forward tend to be on the more aggressive side and the cars with batts back tend to be on the pushy side, both can be fast.....dont listen to days of thunder (loose is fast) because its not always true.
so the answer to your question is "there is no answer" (there is no spoon!)

ok this might be a long one..lots of questions but im glad you guys are finding this info helpful.

TFrahm- you definetely have asked a question that could and usually does spark debate..i personally run my batteries as far forward as i possibly can without the car getting loose coming off the corner...but like ive also said in the past i drive my cars with a setup that is VERY aggresive...the only way i could actually show you this is by letting you drive one of my cars which i would do if we are at a race together...this past weekedn at the nationals i started with my batteries very far forward but i progressively had to move them back because we couldnt get the car off the corner...you are right in saying that a loose car is not fast but a FREE car is very fast...this is a very fine line that you have to find and also driving style will dictate where that line actually is and how thin it is...once you figure out where that line is and how it suits your driving style you can actually run a few different setups that could be equally as fast but are fast for different reasons just like Brad did at Hobbytown...im not trying to be evasive if it doesnt sound like i actually answered this question but i just want you to understand that different setups will work for different people at different times.

TOME- the exact same thing happens in the big shock that is why i switched to the HPI shock...it doesnt have an internal compensation foam bladder.

ALSO- i think Todd was setting the motors up with just a full brush and i believe it was a green on the positive and a blue on the negative. just so you know i will always tell anyone info about my setups...my sponsors dont want me to be secretive in this area. as far as the orings in VCS shocks this may sound extreme but everytime i change oil in my shocks i change the orings because they do expand so much.

BadSign- i usually try to run stiff springs in general on flat tracks because it keeps the car flatter in the corners. as far as i know the slot in the center of the brush is more like a place for the brush deposits to go...most of the time at the en of a run you will see that slot built up with junk from the brush. if im not right i hope Todd will correct me.

XXXfan- i looked in there and didnt see anything from you...try to resend it if you can.

Brian what do you think about wings? I use to run a chaasis mounted wing and switched to a body mounted wing. I am not sure, but I think that I liked the chassis wing better. Which do you feel is the best. And thanks for taking the time the answer all the questions on here.

Bob- it really depends more on the track and how much rear bite is needed...a body mounted wing tends to give more directional stability and not as much actual rear bite...pod mounted wings give much more rear traction becuase the weight that is being created by the aerodynamics is being applied directly to the rear pod which in turn leads to more rear bite....ive been running wing on the body because it seems to be much more efficient.

Thanks, I know that some people beleive that the body wing well take weight off the front. As the air goes over the rear wing it pushes down the body at the rear and takes weight off the front end. I am not saying that I go along with that but I must say I like the chassis wing better.

Brian
Thanks again for your help. Indy's last race is next Saturday and I'm debating on stiffening the rear. We run spec tires and no wings, so I'm nervous about making the rear much stiffer. Would it be safe to assume that a stiffer RF spring also helps keep the chassis flatter in the corner as well?

I see what you mean about that slot, the last time I pulled the brushes out the brush material had started to cover the slot.

Tom
I think the best way I've heard your situation described is "tire scrub" the car handles well because it's scrubbing speed in the corner, but it's not fast. I've had a hard time understanding why a car that's easy to drive and doesn't push is slow, myself!:confused:

Brian on the carpet pro would you recommend changing
the rear shock angle from stock (flat)?what mods do you do to the cars before you run them?Also on raceway caster blocks where do you start on arm locations (flat carpet oval)thank you for the VERY USEFUL
INFORMATION i find it extremely helpful.

ALSO: Brian's 19 turn motor was setup with a green brush / red spring on the positive, and a blue brush / green spring on the negative. I ran both brushes full faced. We offer this exact setup in our "Nat'l Champ Brush and Spring Combo Kit".
BAD SIGN: The Vertical Slot was invented by Mike Murphy's dad, (Old Man Electronics), in '91. Mike and I used that cut to TQ and Win both Stock classes at the ROAR Oval Nats...(OK,enough of the flag-waiving). A vertical slot, cavity, or any cut that removes material from the center of the brush does a couple of things. For one, if you remove material from the center, the pressure is increased at the leading and trailing edges. This reduces arcing and improves commutation. It also keeps the brushes centered on the comm. The second advantage is what Brian spoke about, which is a trash can for brush dust to accumulate.
Hope this helps... :thumbsup:

Brian,
Sent you the email again. Let me know if you get it or
not.I am using the email from your information at the
bottom under the email link. Is that right???

Thanks,
Randy :cool:

Brian,

Was wondering two things. 1) What type of castor block set up do you like to use on the front and 2) (The magic question in my opinion) What do you like to do to free the car up? I run 6 cell stock oval (flat track carpet) with an ADX chassis and run pretty well but I still don’t know what to look for to really free the car up. I’ve noticed that the best cars seem to sound the same going through the corner as down the straight. The guys who are a little slower sound like they are bogging down in the corner, which I think might be due to tire scrub etc. What hints might you be able to dish out to the rest of us to help fee up our cars in the corner? Any insight would be appreciated.
:thumbsup:

BadSign- a stiffer right front spring will probably make the car push a bit..with spec tires you really have to have a good handle on your chassis becuase your limited as to what you can do with tires whic is the purpose of spec type rwacing..if nothing else i would give it a try but i would also compensate by either taking a bit of left rear out or putting a bit more traction compound on the right front tire.

Impact- you dont need to change the angle of the shock on the carpet pro because it already comes with a raised mount...if you go too high you can actually start to bind the shock up because of the t-plates natural direction..i dont really do alot of mods on my cars..more so im very particular about how things go together...it takes me forever to build front ends because they are not even close to being right out of the package...i built a completely stock front end at the nationals and it took me almost two hours because of polishing and smoothing and cutting away excess areas to help the front end work better...pan cars are actually very simple machines in their layout but if the little things are looked over they can give you all kinds of problems..as far as front arm location i actually run both arms in the center holes but its where they are on the outer kingpin that makes the difference...i always run long Wolfe kingpins and on the right front i put as many spacers under the arm to give it as much down angle as possible..you can go to the lower hole to get more angle but you will usually start to bind the front end up in the lower hole..as far as the left front i run that arm completely flat..if you cut the top of the steering block down to the line that is molded on the block the middle hole of the Raceway mount will give you a flat arm and you also lower the center of gravity because youve lowered your arm.

XXX fan..that is an email address that i rarely check...send it to BBurkhart21075@yahoo.com

Ball- i used to run the Raceway blocks but ive now switched to the new Ractech Team Series caster blocks..they are similar to the Raceway but they are lighter and the they are tapped from the top to hold the upper arm pin in the block. as far as freeing a car up there really is no magic setup...each track is very different and requires diferent things to free them...this past weekend at the carpet nats i had one of the worst cars there but i kept changing things to see what worked...i think i had my whole car apart at one time...what we found out there was that to be fast you needed to get you car to drive up and off the corner and not square it up...what i mean by that is you always want your car to want to head toward the outside wall coming off the corner because that means you are putting down max traction...this is a fine line because you dont want your car to be tight either...if your car will head toward the wall and you can steer it where you want and dont have to use the throttle to put it where you want it you are headed in the right direction...another little trick you can try is called "left trim" with your car going down the straightaway most of the time you will have it going perfectly straight...this is generally the slow way because you actually have to tunr your front wheels more to get in a corner...if you give you car a few clicks of left so it turns a bit left going down the straightaway it will enter the corner much faster...granted this is not an easy way to drive an oval car but it is fast...try it in small steps and see how you do then progressively put a little more in until it becomes REALLY tough to drive then back it off a tick...i ran so much left trim at the snowbirds that i had to turn my car to the right to go down the straightaways..not always the easiest thing to do but it is very fast.

one more thing i really want to thank everyone for making this thread so huge...i cant believe i just looked at the number of replies and views and to see it nearing 9000!! thats amazing...im glad everyone is enjoying this thread because i truly am enjoying posting on it..id also like to say hi to the guys who came up and introduced themselves to me at the nationals...thank you once again guys and lets keep it going.

Brian,
I would like to thank you for starting this thread!!
There aren't a lot of people who would take their
time to anwser these questions. We all really
appreciate it!! I sent you email to the address
you posted, hope you get it.

Greg Craois,
Would like to thank you for anwsering questions
about your new car. Can't wait to get one!!
I work with Eric Knapp at Gaerte Engines, and we were
the two guys asking you questions about the car. We
both are planning to buy the new car!!!

Thanks again to all the pros for awnsering our
questions!!
:thumbsup:

Randy

hey brian just a technicality but by flattening out the left front arm you are lower AND moving to the right the ROLL center, not the cg.

since most people dont get roll center i will explain real quick, cuz its pretty simple on a car with a fixed lower arm.

to calculate roll center: draw a line that extends the top arm to the bottom arm (should intersect the opposite side arm somewhere). now draw a line from that point of intersection to the center of the tire contact patch. do this for both side. the point where the two lines to the contact patches intersect is the roll center.

roll center= the point about which the car rolls

effects: lowering roll center increases roll. it also loads the tire MORE VERTICALLY. raising the roll center reduces roll but loads the tire MORE SIDEWAYS. with the roll center centered in the car (left to right) each side has equal leverage on the other, moving it to the right gives the left side a longer lever arm compared to the right side so it has MORE LEVERAGE on the right.

effectively brians setup gives lots of camber rise on the rf (high arm angle) and moves the roll center VERY far to the right (flattening out the lf arm moves the roll center to the right, and steepening the rf also moves it to the right). this promotes roll. additionally the roll center is lowered a fair amount which promotes MORE roll and VERTICAL loading. basically it equals a LOT of weight transfered to the rf (which is good because typically the rf doesnt have a lot of weight on it anyway).

just thought i would share some roll center knowledge. one thing to note if you pay attention to the above as the car rolls the roll center is RAISED. on a double wishbone car the roll center LOWERS as the car rolls. now you know why rc car and real car dont tune the same in the front end!

Brian, I have enjoyed reading your post and appreciate you taking the time to answer our questions. I would like to know what effect moving the rear tires in or out has on handling?:rolleyes:

Brian what kind of bushing are you using in the HPI shock to mount it to the shock mount?I spent a couple of hours in 2 different shops yesterday and couldn't find anything that fit in the shackle on the shock.Also do you have a part number for the new Racetech caster blocks?Thanks.

KGB- thanks for the clarification on the whole roll center subject.

XXX- its my pleasue to come on here and help as much as possible...ill check my email in a bit and reply to you.

Msey- moving the rear tires are a very good way to help your car that most people dont know much about or sometimes forget...the closer you two rear tires are together the more overall traction you will get..if you move your left rear in but dont move the right rear at all it helps to get the car off the corner...moving your right rear will tend to loosen the car up therefore giving up a bit of forward bite.

Bob- i actually just use a piece of silicone fuel tubing in my HPI shock...it fits almost perfect and gives the shock freedom of movement with the flexibilty...im not sure of the part number but i can check it Monday when i get back to work and let you know.

Brian,
Got your email. Sent you another email.
Thanks for replying!!:thumbsup:

XXX- no problem at all...glad it helped.

Brian what does adjusting the pre load collar do on the car
I cant seem to get it right!!!It makes a big difference on the clock
cant seem to find a happy medium.could you please give the basics on adjusting preload and changing spring tensions.also
what does pod sag do to the car?i try to run mine flat.
thanks again for your knowledge sharing.

Regarding the o-rings on the VCS Micro shocks...can we not just buy a bag of the red Associated o-rings or the MIP blue o-rings instead of buying the Micro rebuild kit? Maybe the o-rings are different, but if they are not, why not buy them in "bulk" since they should be replaced whenever you rebuild/change oil in the shock?

Brian, How would you set up the HPI center shock for an asphalt oval ? Spring, piston, oil wise. The track has good bite and is pretty smooth.

Impact- adjusting the preload is a very important part of a setup...i never run my pod flat when the car is off the ground...it always has some sort of rake to it....this is important because you always want to keep the shock piston in the middle of the oil so its more consisntent...you also want to make your pod and set your shock up so that when you pull your pod back and down there is some reverse travel in the shock...this will help a car go over over bumps because when it rebounds the shock wont bottom out...as far as spring tension i usually always start with a HPI linear red spring...this is very simialr to an Associated red buggy spring but it fits the HPI shock much better...depending on rear bite and bumps you can usually try stiffer until the car gets loose or starts to slow down...in Akron i ended up running a flourescent yelow spring which is very stiff but it hepled to free the car up but didnt get it loose.

CU- thats not a bad idea but the MIP o-rings and the standard associated ones are not the correct size...the VCS micro o-ring almost looks like a bagel.

Gazza...depending on rear tire selection i would probably start with a number 2 piston and around 50wt associated oil...if you use Trinity oil make sure you use 60wt because there oil is about 10 points higher than all other oils on the market.

Hi Brian,
Have you tried running the B3 kingpins in the associated front end? With this kingpin, you use a ballcup on top. It makes for a really smooth action.

I don't know if brian uses it, but I have been using it in all my cars for about a year now, and love it. I race flat asphault, 4cell and 6cell stock, and 4cell 19turn on foams, and it has worked great in all aplications.

Brian-
I am looking into going velodrome racing in Indy (1080 run line) and was wondering if you or anyone else here could give me some advice on setup, body, gearing, and anything else I would need to know. Thanks.

OvalBackmarker- i have tried that setup on a baked track and didnt like it to be honest with you...it made my car a bit inconsistent...i would never run it on a flat track because of the way i change my arm angles so severly and with those kingpins you are very limited with your arm angle because the kinpins are much shorter than the Wolfe long ones.

Xpress- i wish i could help you but ive never run at a Velodrome and wouldnt want to mislead you at all.

XPress:
I'm not running the velo this year (too bad, I'm a half hour away),
but try BSR EHW Silver tires.
Place batteries in as far as possible.
Run a wing with little or no lip and a very small spoiler
Use as much caster as possible, even if it means shimming the front of the A-arms higher than the rear
Set the ride height higher than average
Use a full foam front bumper to block off the underside of the body

Pull the trigger and hold on! :eek:

Xpressman,
Tires-BSR silver EHW caps or Jaco Velodrome caps(no longer made) if you can find them.
Body- Use one of the bodies made for velodrome racing. Bolink ’98 XHS Taurus or if you can find them, Protoform or Parma velodrome bodies(discontinued). Do not use a light body.
Wing- I use the Associated off road wing mounted to the body. Use no kick-up in stock and 1/16-1/8 in mod. No spoiler on the body.
Shocks- On my L30 I use 50wt in the center with silver spring and 40wt on the side shocks with blue springs.
Front End- Wolfe progressive greens with Bolink Megalube for dampening. Run 10-14 degrees of caster. Camber; adjust until the tires wear down the center. Toe 0 degrees.
Ride height-About .375 inches, make sure the front of the chassis is lower than the rear.
Front bumper-Use a foam bumper that completely fills the front of the body. Helps reduce the crash damage.
Gearing- 4-cell stock 1.75
4-cell 19turn 1.90
mod ?

If you have any more questions feel free to e-mail me sjacquez@earthlink.net.

Brian,any harm shiming out castor blocks with dubro brass contored washers that fit snug into lower A-ARM to lengthen upper arm & put more space between eyelet & upper arm.Also does a longer arm have any merrit.Also what speed control you running lately.

man this is great, i can half answer questions for brian now. i have been reading this thread since the beginning and its bomb.

like everyone else says "thanks brian".

also if anyone has any problems with me posting answers just let me know.

dom-19 im pretty sure that brian is running keyence (was at birds) speedo.

heres my take on lengthening arm: spacing castor block in allows use of longer arm which equals less camber rise. also it will change roll center slightly if you use the same hole. if your arm is angled up and you move the block in the roll center is lowered slightly because it will flatten the arm out slightly, but you probably dont need to worry TOO much about this under small spacing amounts.

l8tz

HEY BRIAN...

you wont beleive it rob's boy fired me cause i defended myself and mike. need any help at comp. hehe needless to say maynot get to go to race city for that race. you guys kick some butt. see ya Billy
:dude: