Has anyone seen the load of crap Trinity article in the new car action mag? It is titled "urban myths" about brushless motors. They are obviously scared to death of the approaching take-over of brushless motors. This is the first advertisement ive seen in RC mags thats only purpose is to slam another product, and not offer anything better. About 75% of the people at my local track have switched to brushless. And we have had the closest, fastest racing ever! This article lied about the cost, the maintenance, torque/rpm, and pretty much everything else mentioned.

Well, thats my 2 cents, Just wanted to see if anyone else was angered by this article as much as I was. :mad: ....

I think there has already been a thread on this, but I do agree with you. Trinity needs to get with the times and actually make something innovative instead of making a new "D" series motor what seems like every 8 months. Sure, they've done some innovative stuff in the past, but nothing recent really stands out to me.

If anyone wants to know what Infrontracing is talking about, this comes from the front page of Trinity's site.

Brushless Motor System Myths

These points below are in reaction to ads that have been run which we feel could be misleading to the customer about Brushless Motor Systems. In our opinion, this is a technology that is not all it is advertised to be.

Only Need One Motor: False, you will still need several motors for each application you decide to use them in.

Motors are Indestructible: False, Brushless motors can still be susceptible to shorts due to faulty winding, debris entering the motor and heat.

Torque and RPM are the same as brushed: False, you will need to give up one for the other. That is another reason why you need more then one brushless motor.

No Maintenance: False, cleaning, bearing replacement and magnet zapping will still be needed for top performance. Also, any damage to the motor can may cause the motor to fail.

Brushless will take the battery war out of play: False, Batteries will play a bigger part since brushless systems depend on high voltage, amps and super low internal resistance to operate as a race motor. Bottom line... you will still need to have quality batteries.

Some say the Speed Control can be programmed to a spec level and everyone will be the same: False, again at this point batteries will make a huge difference. Good quality packs will be essential. In the end, a " Team Driver" will still have the advantage due to speed controller programming knowledge, access to unreleased technology and the ability to jump the regulator that restricts the amp flow. It is much easier to just tech a motor.

Brushless Performance: There will still be better motors than others due to manufacturing tolerances. Remember the price on a brushless motor when you have to replace it because it does not perform as claimed. Since there is no easy way to maintain and keep a brushless motor up to original spec (i.e. rebuild) it may be necessary to purchase new motors often at a very high price to keep up with your neighbor or racing rival.

Trinity's claims may not be complete lies, but it seems like they exaggerate a bit.

Dont get me wrong, Trinity has made some great stuff and I have bought all of it. Trinity stuff is the only way to go if you are running stock. But this article is just making him look like a fool. And im glad other people are noticing. Brushless motors are like a drug, you try it once and you are addicted. (not that i would know about drugs) lol

Trinity will bad mouth the brushless motor systems until Ernie's workshop elves make one of their own.

I'm sure once the Trinity camp releases the "Monster Brushless" system, they'll say you just gotta have one to win. They'll be the greatest thing since tire warmers.

Still, you have to give it to Ernie. The guy's driving a Mercedes while we race toy cars.

PanMan

Better yet Trinity will be lobbying the public and ROAR to make them legal for stock and mod when they have there own stuff to sell... R/C version of DAMAGE CONTROL! I dont own one yet but i love the concept and theory,seen em run and they look good!

The thing that gets me about those points though, is that they all fall under the "well duh!!!" catagory.

They want it to look like buying a brushless is worse than buying brushed, but all those points are just common sense.

"Only Need One Motor: False, you will still need several motors for each application you decide to use them in.
~ Again....DUH! No, I'm thinking my motor will magically move itself from my truck to my buggy.

"Motors are Indestructible: False, Brushless motors can still be susceptible to shorts due to faulty winding, debris entering the motor and heat."
~Hmm, well I really thought if one had accidentally been made poorly, it would work better! (extreme sarcasm). Not to mention, how is this worse than brushed motors that would have this still happen more often.

"Torque and RPM are the same as brushed: False, you will need to give up one for the other. That is another reason why you need more then one brushless motor."
~ Uh, I know I've said this before but....DUH!!! I think everyone knows, simple physics only allows for one or the other. Sigh....how stupid do they think we are?

"No Maintenance: False, cleaning, bearing replacement and magnet zapping will still be needed for top performance. Also, any damage to the motor can may cause the motor to fail."
~Well of course if you abuse ANYTHING, it will eventually go bad. I was thinking I could throw a few screws in there, throw the motor against the wall, and think it would still work......sigh...

"Brushless will take the battery war out of play: False, Batteries will play a bigger part since brushless systems depend on high voltage, amps and super low internal resistance to operate as a race motor. Bottom line... you will still need to have quality batteries."
~This one may be true, but I honestly have never heard anyone say that it would take batteries out of play.

"Some say the Speed Control can be programmed to a spec level and everyone will be the same: False, again at this point batteries will make a huge difference."
~No this is true, you can program the esc to a spec level. Batteries are a completely different issue.

I don't even own a brushless system, and honestly, don't care either way. I actually enjoy working on my motors and rebuilding them, so as long as they are more powerful, I will use them, but what Trinity is trying to imply is just stupid of them!

Notice that Trinity states no reason why brushless motors are not (for example) more powerful than brushed motors.

Someone who knows almost nothing could write those myths.

In Trinitys add in RC Driver they state "Epic matching labels are printed direct from the matcher using the latest Competion Electronics/Epic 2.0 package for closer matching tolerances. Others use older 1.3/1.6 software printed through a label program which allows the user to manipulate the numbers or matchers which allow the same number tweeking." Well I guess when you only list the highest cell label on the outside of the box, then you don't have to manipulate the numbers. What a load! The big T at it's finest.

My favorite is "No Maintenance: False, cleaning, bearing replacement and magnet zapping will still be needed for top performance. Also, any damage to the motor can may cause the motor to fail."

Like Ennjay says... DUH!!! The real meaning of no maintenance on them is no com truing or brush replacement. It's alot quicker to just spray out the motor and re-lube the bearings than to pull it apart do the com, change the brushes, etc....

How many times has anyone had to replace a bearing in a motor anyway?

gezer - i believe the label on the outside of trinity's matched cells is of the lowest numbered cell in the pack.

Thats all true but when they make them legal and Trinity comes out with one you know everyone will be buying them.

Trinity= Microsoft.

They are huge and they want to stay that way.

I want to know why they have waited so long to come out with their own brushless system instead of printing this drivel for the masses to soak up.

What will be funny is how they will counteract these statements when they do come out with their own... Oh, ours is vastly superior to all previous Brushless systems and we solved all the problems we pointed out....... Please.(heavy sarcasm)

That's the way T has been all the time. When it came to motors they bad mouth the other motor companies or refused to sell to the small guys, then when batteries became the issue they posted information that was misleading. And now this.
Wait until they build a brushless system and their will make you believe no one else can build a better one than them.

This is my personal feelings over the years and how Trinity reacted to other companies being first or competing in the RC market with them. :rolleyes:

[edited] I edited your message because of the language used. Please read our TOS (click the FAQ link at the top of any page) for what is considered acceptable.... your post wasn't!!!

I edited your message because of the language used. Please read our TOS (click the FAQ link at the top of any page) for what is considered acceptable.... your post wasn't!!!

well to expand on thoughts that have been talked about.. i've been using "T" products for awhile (as most of us have) and i mean they are just trying to save their butt by bashing Novak, even if they have to lie, cheat, or steal to do it and stay on top of the R/C motor industry.. but they really shouldn't worry no brushless for stock racing yet..!

Actually there is a stock brushless now. It just became available a couple weeks ago. The owner of my local HS got one and tried it in his pan car. They will soon be available to buy just the motor, it will work with the sportsman speedo. Motor will sell for around $70 -$80.

I've talked to a few of the Brushless Motor Manufacturers, and although much of what Trinity claimed may be exaggerated, there is some truth to some of their points.
Brushless motors are still not perfected, or easily tuned like a brushed motor. This will be accomplished in time, I'm sure...

As far as the accuracy of Trinity's ads/claims: They're still advertising they won the first ROAR 19 turn Oval Nationals this past April with an Arornite, when we TQ'd and Won it with Rick Talbot... :cool:
...and for the record, their driver wasn't using an Arcornite at the event, either... :thumbsup:

The brushless motors have no more (actually less) problems that can occur than brush motors. Regaurdless, the idea of taking a full page in car action to badmouth a product someone else sells but he does not is just rediculous. If Trinity thinks the brushless motors are so bad they should have nothing to worry about right? But everyone knows they are definatly worried. I say, if you want to run brushes run them. But dont worry about the guys who run brushless. Ive been running Novak brushless systems since they were available (almost a year) and ive had no problems. I replaced bearings once. And when I did there wasnt a spec of dirt inside because it is totally sealed. I have learned more about chassis set up this year than any other because I wasnt screwing with my motor. I do realize that some of what the Trinity ad say applies more to pro level races. But the ad is not meant to speak to top level racers. Its meant to dicourage your average Joe from getting a brushless. Well thats my 2cents....

average Joe?

As far as the accuracy of Trinity's ads/claims: They're still advertising they won the first ROAR 19 turn Oval Nationals this past April with an Arornite, when we TQ'd and Won it with Rick Talbot... :cool:
...and for the record, their driver wasn't using an Arcornite at the event, either... :thumbsup:

DANG! You mean that machine wound "Arcornite Pro" hanging on the local hobby shop wall is NOT the same as the custom built, handwound, Jim Dieter "special" they ran at the Oval Nationals...? Say it isn't so! Trinity wouldn't say it if it wasn't true, would they? OH -- I feel so betrayed! LOL! :D

Compare the format of the trinity myths with that of the graphite vs. plastic myths (other thread).

DANG! You mean that machine wound "Arcornite Pro" hanging on the local hobby shop wall is NOT the same as the custom built, handwound, Jim Dieter "special" they ran at the Oval Nationals...? Say it isn't so! Trinity wouldn't say it if it wasn't true, would they? OH -- I feel so betrayed! LOL! :D

You mean that motor that their driver "won" with?? :D

By the way, Rick still hasn't received his first place trophy!! :mad:

As a nitro tunnel/hydro racer electric motors are not my field.
But I will say that before brushless motors, a brushed motor in a hydro with 18 cells could not compete with a 3.5cc hydro at all.
Some of the brushless motors can compete with and supersead nitros now with less cells.
They have me woried but for only a few laps untill batts die. NITRO ON.

bump

http://www.teamtrinity.com/images/why-roar-05.jpg

I agree, there are some legit reasons in that, but it seems like trinity is just going to milk the brushed motor cow untill it dies instead of actually realizing that brushless motors are here to stay.

Hmm.. A brushless motor powered vehicle won the carpet nats. Maybe instead of complaining about it in magazines (first page of July '05 RCCA) and on the internet, you should spend your money A) making/"acquireing" a brushless motor or B) making/"acquireing" a brushed motor that matches/is better than the performance of a brushless system.

I, for one, plan to buy a novak or reedy brushless system to run at my local carpet track. Legal? maybe, but I sure don't want to have to dish out $15 for a pair of brushes just to be competative

joe do you know why the brushless motor won? did you know the brushless motor was a one off proto type? did you know the brushless motor had no boundaries or rules to hold it back or limit it's performance? did you knw the brushless motor also had no price limit? that motor winning in 12th mod with not one single rule to follow would be like a 500 lap enduro allowing gas cars to run with electrics. apples race with apples or at the very least make the rules the same for both?

again brushless motors will be nothing until trinity places million dollar adds in the back of all the r/c magazines . until than there just a novelty.

the driver of the car, but I am sure the efficency had a part in it too

yes, I know it was a proto, there was no money limit, and no rules.

My statement(s) werent to emphasise the fact that brushed were run with brushless, but rather that trinity has been making a bunch of bull in an attempt to keep all their loyal fanboys away from the BL wagon.

Uh, sorry dude, brushless was a novelty a couple years ago when guys were putting it in their E-maxx's, but now my hobby store sells at least one a week, and most of those people don't even race.

So it is catching on, whether you hard headed people realize it or not. :wave:

Season two on my brushless (Novak SS5800) and no maintenance yet. LOVIN' IT!!!
Trinity: BITE ME! I'll never buy another Trinity product again. You've stuck me once too often. and that is it! Even if I have to run a brushed system for some strange reason, you can bet it won't include any Trinity products. Wake up Ernie and smell the motor cleaner ........OOps I don't use that any more either. Keep your stuff!

Uh, sorry dude, brushless was a novelty a couple years ago when guys were putting it in their E-maxx's, but now my hobby store sells at least one a week, and most of those people don't even race.

So it is catching on, whether you hard headed people realize it or not. :wave:Actually brushless was a novelty back in late 89 and early 90's, but they were for RC airplanes, we welcomed them with open arms since it gave us more realistic flight times compared to nitro, it only seems to be a natural eveolution to RC cars and trucks, With stock, run brushless with brushless and brushed with brushed, unless its mod, thats what mod is all about! open class racing! I also race and have raced for 20+ years and this happens all the time when "new" technology comes out, But "Brushless" has been around for a long long time! way before RC and way before 1980 LOL

this right here is the reason why you see people get tired of racing, like myself. this is all rediculous. trinity or anyone else should be trying to help people and help sell there product. what they are doing makes them sound stupid and like a monopoly. i agree with some of those statements but the main thing is what will people want in the long run. i hate having to rebuild my engine every few races and clean it out and change brushes and all that. not to mention the combination of brushes and springs to find the right balance between torque and rpm. to the beginner this is all hard to understand and realize that you have to play with things to get a good combination which takes money and time. basically what im saying is that for some people brushless is the way to go and in trinities case they will run brushed motors forever apparantly. i say im tired of seeing this because like all major corporations you usually see money hungry people and which dont care about the consumer. it makes people want to get out of racing because you have to spend more money on batteries trying to get the biggest advantage you can and you have to spend money on motors and when the average racer has a disadvantage against the professional racers then you realize that there is no way you can compete with them. example pro drivers getting new equipment not even out yet such as cars and speedcontrollers etc.. that just makes me mad. it doesnt really make people quit but when people get so competitive that they have to lie to us about certain things and build something that people cant compete with and basically not care about people in general it scares people away.

and most of those people don't even race.

:wave:

thus i consider them a toy. i'm a racer.not a basher. sorry but i consider t maxx and e maxx a z maxx a savage and beasts all toys. touring cars,12th scale and oval cars fit "my" description of r/c "race" cars. in the end there all toy cars but "my own" description of a race car is the above. now when there are 20 or so of them in a "stock" class and a "mod" class at my local tracks you can bet i'll buy one or two of them. but still in 2005 in florida there just a novalty.

for those who do "use them to race with" how do you set up the classes?

novak has two brushless systems now , with a third on the way.
lrp has one
hacker?

do the novak brushless keep up with the lrp/reedy motors? what about hackers? do they all have the ability to produce the same power? or is one guy with a lrp going to smoke the guy with a noval system?

i consider the 12th mod victory like allowing a guy in stock to run any motor he wants..kinda like cheating. so i discredit the victory. i honestly think if you allow any motor company to make a brushed mod motor with no limits on money it would blow away and brushless system out there. i think that day is growing closer?

and what about races like the snowbirds? how do you have handout motor classes? will the entry be 475.00 for the brushless stock class? or will you ask everyone to hold onto there dynos and comm lathes for a few races a year?

what about tuning the brushless with a lap top?

how do you know the "pro" driver won't have a "special" brushless motor?

how do you tech them?

who will tech them?

this is going to be painfull

the avg basher does not care about the above questions.

the avg racer does!

when all of the above questions have legit answers..brushless will be mainstream. and yes trinity i'm sure will have a system sooner than later.

80% of the brushed motor componets used today come from trinity.

buy orion or reedy based motors if you hate trinity. lol

If people are willing to learn C++ or whatever type of code that you would use to program, then so be it. This would only go for mod class, which is the more open class. batteries dont magicly make more voltage, so someone having a giant edge because of some slight programming tweaks is unlikely. Reprogramming in stock class, in my opinion, should not be allowed. The simplest way that I can think of would to flash the original program each race (at least with the "big boys"). Even an infared sensor that reset the program when it detected a significant amount of infared light would work, and would be faster then plugging a lap top into each car's esc every race.

they make an electronic meter that tells you exactly which motor you have in the car, our local track uses it in our brushles class it tells you exactly what voltage is going to the motor and there is a chart that tells you depending on the voltage reading which program you are running and you cant tweak the programs with a laptop first off, unless you are novak or reedy/lrp it is the most fool proof system that is out currently:thumbsup:

how much extra will it cost the local track to tech the brushless motors?

if someone thinks there cheating..now much does it cost to claim the electronics?

Beats me. how about all the racers in all the world use the honor system?

since thats never going to happen, I ask you, how much does it cost to tech a brushed system? Nothing, I am presuming, mostly because all the stock motors have their little arm tags and the mod motors have the winds printed on them. Just have to "hire" someone to look.

$475? It would hopefully scare the normal weekend racer from cheating. the "big boys" wouldnt really care; its not like they pay 100% for their stuff anyway.

I think you have to look at the over all market here and not little niches. Katf1sh, you call 1/12, oval and TC as true racing. If that was true the sport of RC racing would be very small and hardly cover what really makes Trinity, AE, Losi and the others all the money. Its the bashers, buggies and trucks that are the cash cow of the industry. So they will drive the development in the market far more than the "racers".

If a guy can purchase a RTR kit, Novak brushless and a few packs, for the most part he is done with it and will run the thing into the ground in his back yard or at a local sand lot. He might even run with his buddies at times and with his kids. This is were the largest part of the profit in the industry is. The big racers at the big events account for little profit if any. The team drivers are all cost to the company since they get thing either free or at greatly reduced cost. The rest at the big events do by a lot of stuff, but only for a short time and usually know were to get good deals. There is a reason Losi does not build a 1/12 or AE building an offroad 4WD, there is not the market to support more kits to justify the cost to make one.

Brushless motors are the next step in RC and the only ones I hear complain are the ones that either have the advantage of really knowing brushed motor tuning and the dollars to do it or the ones that build brushed motors and have not started a brushless program. This has nothing to do with power output as even brushed motors now produce more power than can be put to the track in most classes. Thats part of the reason 4 cell as grown in the last 5 years.

I think you have to look at the over all market here and not little niches. Katf1sh, you call 1/12, oval and TC as true racing. If that was true the sport of RC racing would be very small and hardly cover what really makes Trinity, AE, Losi and the others all the money. Its the bashers, buggies and trucks that are the cash cow of the industry. So they will drive the development in the market far more than the "racers".

If a guy can purchase a RTR kit, Novak brushless and a few packs, for the most part he is done with it and will run the thing into the ground in his back yard or at a local sand lot. He might even run with his buddies at times and with his kids. This is were the largest part of the profit in the industry is. The big racers at the big events account for little profit if any. The team drivers are all cost to the company since they get thing either free or at greatly reduced cost. The rest at the big events do by a lot of stuff, but only for a short time and usually know were to get good deals. There is a reason Losi does not build a 1/12 or AE building an offroad 4WD, there is not the market to support more kits to justify the cost to make one.

Brushless motors are the next step in RC and the only ones I hear complain are the ones that either have the advantage of really knowing brushed motor tuning and the dollars to do it or the ones that build brushed motors and have not started a brushless program. This has nothing to do with power output as even brushed motors now produce more power than can be put to the track in most classes. Thats part of the reason 4 cell as grown in the last 5 years.


Very well said :thumbsup:

I think it's a little futile when someone says "but how are we goint to tech brushless?!"... well, how do you tech everything else? I'm sure someone will figure it out. "But brushless opens the doors to cheating!" I already hear about cheating going on. Brushed technology certainly isn't immune to it.

But anyway, the latest garbage from Trinity ("Why Roar?") is just that... garbage. Sorry Ernie... while ROAR certainly has its problems, forgive me if I don't take your opinion on the matter too seriously ;) . And the front page of RCCA is NOT the place for that kind of thing...

By the way, I have to laugh when I see those "myths of brushless". It just wreaks of desperation.

Season two on my brushless (Novak SS5800) and no maintenance yet. LOVIN' IT!!!
Trinity: BITE ME! I'll never buy another Trinity product again. You've stuck me once too often. and that is it! Even if I have to run a brushed system for some strange reason, you can bet it won't include any Trinity products. Wake up Ernie and smell the motor cleaner ........OOps I don't use that any more either. Keep your stuff!


Don't use anything with "EPIC" on it... :D :devil:

I don't see why teching any brushless motor would be any different than a brushed motor... You have a stator which is composed from different electromagnets, which have a determined number of coils, which can be unwinded. Then you have a rotor which is a permanent magnet which can be checked the same way magnets can be checked on a regular brushed motor.


As far as programming the ESC goes, I'd be very surprised to see Novak or LRP or any one actually open their source code to any racer who want to fiddle with it. They don't do it right now with their current ESC, which all have processors which, theoretically, could be reprogrammed.

Anyway, limitting these motors will never be done through software. It will be done through motor limitations, much like what we have right now on brushed motors. What's the use of an ESC that can switch so fast that it could take the motor up to 50K RPM when a said motor cannot physically reach that speed? Any motor has a physical limit to what power it can produce, be it brushed or brushless.

The only real problem is that brushed and brushless technology cannot be raced together as far as anything spec goes because one of them would have the advantage over the other. Open mod, on the other side, well, is just that... OPEN!

Martin Paradis

Im glad to see my thread thriving after all this time.

We have been racing brushless in out local three track area since Novak released them and we have tried racing them in many applications. But what has worked out best for us is brushless only classes. We currently race custom works sprint cars and wedge cars using the brushless. But for big races people come from out of town and race with mod brushed motors and can squeeze out a little more power to take the win against the brushless.

So either someone needs to come out with a slightly stronger brushless to compete with the very low wind mod brushed motors or track owners will have to stick to brushless only classes. This of coarse wont work at major roar events, but at small local area tracks, the brushless is the way to go. And like the other guy said, the bashers and small track racers are the money spenders. When everyone saw the first guy at our track run a brushless our track owner sold 25 -30 BL systems within a year.

And yes, most of the "problems" with brushless systems are problems that already exist in the brushed motor classes and have been overcome.

I think the great motor builders/money spenders will be forced to drive better when brushless takes over. Maybe thats what they are scared of.