So... put aside most of the discussions and debates about RULEs...

What is the best 19 turn oval motor?

Now, I guess there ultimatly has to be some rules... but quite frankly it seems as if ROAR will very likely change there 19 turn rules... to what is anyones guess right now. However right now... I can run virtualy any 19 turn motor at my local club races... So what motor should I use? and why?

Currently here is what I have in my box... I have one each of the following...

Chameleon 2 'spec' motor, Fantom Ti based ARCOR legal motor, Trinity machine wound ARCORNITE ARCOR legal motor, Reedy Quad Magnet 'super spec' motor (with timing tab removed, so it's fully adjustable timing)...

I also have on loan, and would be willing to buy..... a Trinity D5 can with hand wound Trinity 19 turn arm. And... last but not least... a Putnam (Trinity) Binary Can with hand wound 19 turn armature.

Now I'm not really concerned too much with who wound what... I'm basicly just asking... If you could run ANY 19 turn motor what would you use?

Do the Trinity Binary cans have any advantage over Reedy Quad cans?
Do big Square brushes have any advantage over standard size brushes? Do lay down burshes on a big commutator have any clear advantge? Etc...


I intentend to do some (small amount) of on track testing this weekend... Along with some dyno runs too... Any advice or predictions?

i would have to say the best 19 turn motor out is the putnam d5 based 19 turn. and i am not sponsored by putnam, but i would have to say he puts some hard work into them motors and i have had very good luck with them and am always running up front with them. also i have had many questions to ask Todd and every time i call he is always willing to listen and answer any question i have for him. well just my opinion and i'm sure a million others will back me up on this one. but trust me give them a shot you will not be dissapointed :thumbsup: keep up the good work Todd your motors are fasttttttt :eek:

I have to recommend KC RACING fast motors quality service, call 661-588-2757 ask for ken or dawn.
Phillip
Maverick,KC Racing

Dyno, next time were up at Lansing I'll get you Todds contact info, or im sure you can find it online, He is the 19t god. :thumbsup: My bro, or myself would be happy to help ya out. see ya

come on guys... talk to me about motor design... pros and cons of big brushes, big comms, quad-magnets, etc...

if you want to throw in some plug for your favorite motor man, that's fine, but how about telling me more about why your motor man builds the motors he does...

I've got a Putnam 19 turn in a Binary can right now, but only for the weekend... I haven't even dynoed it yet, but when I put 2.3 volts to it this morning... it sounded awesome... When compared to another 19 turn in a D5 can, it 'sounded' like it was runing with about 50% more RPM. I'm really looking forward to trying this motor... Since it's not really legal for ROAR or ARCOR, maybe no one's got much experiance with it yet.

I plan to be in Lansing this Friday... I tried to get a Putnam D5 based motor for the Regional race, but Nick's shipment didn't arive in time... I don't know if he has one now, or not... I'd probably buy one from him if he does. But then if this binary can has any advantage... I may just have to try and find a way to get one for myself... (since I only have it on loan)

well motor design i can not go to far into that. for that i'm sure if you talk to todd he will give you all the info he can. give him a call at 518-452-0422 i'm sure he'll be glad to answer all your questions and after talking with him i'm sure you'll choose his motors also check out his web site putnampropulsion.com and i'm sure if he sees your post here he will answer any questions on here also. :thumbsup: good luck and choose wisely. :thumbsup:

I'll likely give a Todd a call soon, most likely early next week. I'd like to run this Binary motor first, so that I can ask him some questions about it and such. I've had a opertunity to run one other Putnam motor in the past, it was a Chameleon, and it was rather impressive. My local shops don't generaly carry his motors for whatever reason, and that's the main reason I have yet to buy one....

One thing interesting I've imediately noticed... The Reedy Quad Magnet motor has almost no cogging effect when you spin the armature by hand... yet the Trinity Bianary motor has the exact same coging effect you'd feel on any two magnet motor.... All I've heard is hype so far in terms of Quad magnets in general... or so it seems. I was really hoping to get some real racer opions on such things...

On other thing that kills me... Trinity puts these big brushes on their D5 motors, but it seems whoever I speak with, they all seem to indicate that anyone who actualy uses those brushes, narrows them so they are in effect the same dimensions a a standard brush... I don't understand Why trinity still hypes this brush, if no one really uses it as a big brush... (yeah I know their trinity, and probably just want to be a exclusive brush supplier for thier motors... )

well as far as the big brush we cut it down to save on runtime. as for there reasons i'm sure there are more people here who could answer your question on that but doing dyno testing i have never really seen a big difference when i went and put the narrow brush hoods on my d5 mods they dynoed out very close but i know the narrow brush hood saves on run time big. the motors usually come with a 4383e wich is the big brush and then i change it to the regular 4383 and put the narrow brush hoods and it helps. well just my 2 cents anyone else??

Yeah... that's the kinda info I want...

Thanks...

1. PUTNAM for doing his homework on the D5 setup ARCOR legal
2. FANTOM D5 setup with a 4 mm arm and stadnup brushes

I did not know that 4 magent 19turn motors were legal for arcor racing maybe JB or any ARCOR director can post their thoughts...

I can say that the ARCONITE motor is not equal to or better than the others listed ....It is HEMI wound and that is not the same as the rest of the ARCOR

Most of the motors from the top 2 are in the 95 -105 range for power and 24000 -25000 rpms if the rpms are higher than that the "on the track power seems to be much slower

The most important thing I have found is that the brush hoods need to be made a little smaller to get the brush to weare correctly ...Maybe Todd can post the reason or reasons that is happening ....

I do not run for PUTNAM but do respect his knowlegde and work ethic..


DYNOHOHUM the large brush was suposed to be the the best thing since slcied bread BUT it give TRINITY al the brush business back that guys like PUTNAM and other smaller brush compnaies had taken from TRINITY
Off the soap box SRM :thumbsup:

Now there is something interesting... The ARCORNITE has a Hemi wind? I don't see how that could be true. ARCOR lists the ACORNITE motor as being legal for ACROR racing, and clearly they state that the arms have to be Mabuchi wind... So... I don't know for sure... but I think your mistaken about the ARCORNITE arm being hemi wound...

Oh... and NO... currently both ROAR and ARCOR clearly state only two magnets per can... So the Binary and KR cans are not legal at this time in either type of racing... HOWEVER... There have been some strong suggestions that ROAR will likely change their 19 turn rules soon... and that there's a good chance that it will be more or less full mod with simply a 19 turn limit... ALSO... For my purposes at the local track... I can run ANY 19 turn motor...

Don't quote me but.....what i heard was that the early production arcornites were hemi wound because they made them along with the chameleons but were corrected to the mabuchi wind later on. :confused:

Also on the P94 brushes another theory is that the bigger brush will dissipate heat quicker.I've ran both hood configurations back to back with no noticable difference but this was in oval maybe with an offroad or touring car application this is much more noticable.

Dyno
You have to remember that us OVAL guys don't dominate the market. TC guys can probably take advantage of that big brush with all the starting and stopping they do, and like SRM stated Trinity get's the brush sales.
We pretty much keep it would up, so brush drag is of more importance.
If I were to buy a 19 turn, I'd get whatever Putnam's guy's are winning with. Todd has the technical wisardly your looking for...Call him.

Later, Bret

Great post Dyno. I've been wondering the exact same things. I need to get a good 19t but am unsure what to go with. Looks like this thread should get some good info.

RC

Handwound Hemi arm, Binary can, laydown brushes, full timing. Hold on for two minutes.

arcor and roar legal? D5 with putnam X brushes timing cranked . :thumbsup:

ok ......what kind of power reading should i expect to see on a good D5 putnam motor or one of the new quad magnets motors?oh i have famtom dyno

Like Rocket said 95-105 for power.24000-25000 rpm

The Bat is correct,the early ARCORnites were hemi wound,that is what was passed out at the NORRCA Nats in may,the situation was later corrected and the new arms are now machine-wound mabuchi wrap.I gotta say that with the new arm they are pretty awesome motors,much better than with the hemi arm,would still go with the D5 set-up by any reputable winder though.Good amp draw,consistant,magnets stay at a good reading even after several runs.

I've run a couple of P-94 brushed motors in Touring Car and the only advantage I see is for BATTERY SELLERS! :devil: They get lousy "gas mileage" due to the fact that they produce a dead short 6 times per revolution (so do laydown brushes on a normal sized comm). I suppose it is possible that they produce more power (during the time when they're NOT shorting out), so they might work in 4-cell 19-turn (battery capacity is usually no problem), but on the track and the dyno, all I see is poor efficiency.

The Trinity ARCORnite motor was approved with a Mubuchi wrap, as submitted. When production of these went into full swing, Japan, inadvertently, wound some of these arms with a hemi wrap, which happened to be some of the batch that was haaded out at the NORRCA Nats, last May. When Trinity was contacted about this, it took them less than two days, to find out the probelm and reply with a fair solution. They replaced any arms with the hemi wrap, with the correct mabuchi wrap. This was a production error that was quicly taken care of.

ARCOR does not allow quad magnets motors in the ARCOR 19T classes, by member vote. Quad magnets motors however, are legal in the Open Modified class.

It is my understanding that ROAR will approve the Quad Magnet 19T motor at the first of the year. This is understandable, because ROAR has to blanket it's motors to cover all clases of racing, from Oval, TC to Off-Road. ARCOR on the other hand, is Oval Racing only and the members have voted to put a moritorium on the ARCOR 19T motor specifications until January 1st 2005. This means that the current ARCOR motors with two magnets are the only legal motors until 2005.

Well, on night when I was more bored than usual, I decided to put together the oddest combination of arms cans and hoods I could think of. D5 can, non vented one, C2 arm, P94 brushes. I had the following results:

Power: 104
Torque: 124
RPM: 30000+

Unfortunately this motor is about as illegal as it gets, but If you were running an outlaw? class i suppose it would work very well.

I did work on somebody's motor during the race in Maine, that had the same results aside from the torque, it was 116. That motor was Kisbey with purple Trinity springs, and 4383.

When I rebuild my motors I use 4383's and Trinity red springs. I usually get no less then 93, and around 95-97watts, and 24000rpm after a rebuild. They get better every rebuild though. :)

The P94 brushes are larger, of course, and create less resistance, but more friction. The loss of resistance greatly outnumbers the friction though. That also means the amo draw wil be higher, and just like when you charge your batteries at a higher rate, when your motor draws a higher rate, you batteries are going to dicharge faster. For 19t is shold not be a problem though. You may even be able to use VERY soft springs, and still get the same power and RPM output. From what I have found, and don't rely on this because it may be wrong, but the lighter springs create less drag on the comm, and create less friction. Think of the brushes as a brake pad, the heavire the spring, the more friction they create, which reduces RPM, and possibly power. Drag also increases amp draw, this makes the batteries discharge faster. The lighter spings create a higher RPM, and I have found the power to remain very close. I used soft Reedy springs (copper?) for the D5 experimental motor. :wave:

Mike, it was probably my motor with the 4383 hollow brushes. Overcranked the timing and burn it up in the main, next time I'm going with my first impression - keep timing at 25-34degrees not 45degrees.
Itried both the C1 and C2 including the Fantom LTE C2, and the older Reedy 19T ball bearings - I liked the Reedys better in terms of machine wind fixed timing motors. For adjustable ACOR motors Yokomo or Epic there are about the same, with maybe one manufacturer having a motor that makes a little better power.

Just made the switch to ARCOR type motors so a little more tuning is still needed.

HOOPD1,

were those 95-105 readings w/ 36 deg timing?

Well... I think I've pretty much answered most of my own personal questions... at least I have a whole differnt outlook on this then I did yesterday...

You know... I think I have one of the Hemi wound ARCORNITE motors... Unless I some how got a Chameleon arm from some other motor I own... So... I now am not at all surprized that there are/were Hemi wound ARCORNITEs...

Back to the D5 vs. Binary issue... My dyno data leads me to beleive that there is basicly NO differance. If anything my dyno data shows better power from the D5 can then the same arm did with the Binary can... (it was a very slight differance one I normaly would consider insignificant)

I did see some interesting things at one point when I had a machine wound Hemi wrap 19 turn arm. However testing Hemi vs. Mabuchi will have to wait another day... I am intrequed though.

At 6 volts on my Robitronic, I'm getting like 129 watts peak power from both the D5 and Binary based motors, and RPM is not all that much differnt. With my Ti based ARCOR legal motor my best motor was like 126 watts.

So... at this point... I'd have to conclude that the Trinity based 19 turn motors do appear to have a slight advantage over the Reedy based ones.

Yeah Scott 36 degrees,I have a TI motor thats always 95 plus but the big power is in the d5 based stuff.

Thanks JB for the update I was sure you would see it and post..

DYNO I still have 3 unused hemi wrapped motors from Last April [wisocnsin] Maybe TRINITY will take them back ?????

I for one like the 19turn class and the batteries like it much better to .....
I have found that my mod batts are fasterthan my 19turn deadshorted packs by 4 seconds in 19 turn racing ....Must be the extra runtime :thumbsup:

Love to see this thread keep going so all us 19turn racers can get the max power to the people ...[fantom saying]


SRM :eek:

steve, are you planning on racing with us tomorrow?

Hi tom no work is in the way did you get your car and batts sorted out ??????

I will not be abel to get back there for at least 4weeks :cry: :confused:

Are you going to make the OHIO trip????


SRM

HOOPD1,

well, i dunno how u get that. i have a Ti based at 36 deg that has put out 95, but is a 92 right now. just started playing w/ my 1st D5 based, Kisbey 19 turn, it is sad...85 watts. :( used a racetech gauge to set the timing at 36 deg. so, i was kinda hoping u said u had the endbell cranked til the damn thing was about to fall off, which should mean u had more timing. well, i will be looking to pick your brain sunday, i guess :rolleyes:

naaa, the cells never materialized. the car is getting better though. can't make the trip to ohio, going to be in florida for a couple of weeks at that time...

The Hemi wound should perform much better than the Mabuchi, because from what I have read the Hemi wound arms are actually 18 1/2 turns, while the Mabuchi wound arms are a full 19t. So, at the same timing, the Hemi wound arms should perform much better than the Mabuchi (Is Mabuchi the name of the inventor it? :confused: ). :wave:

rcavenger,I'm having the same problem with my Kisby D-5 motor.I've tried several brush/spring combo's all with the same results 85-90 on power with poor torque and efficency.With an Arcornite I up at 100-105w with great torque and eff.Also on the track the D-5 is a total slug and the Arcornite has tons of rip.I want to try putting the D-5 arm in an Acornite can to see if the arm just preforms poorly or if the D-5 can is bad or maybe I'm missing something.

One thing to watch on the d5 stuff is it seems that the brush hoods are a little to big as far as width so the brush likes to cock off to one side when the motor runs.So on the bench what apears to be perfect hood alignment isnt when the motor runs with a load.
I narrow up the hood a little to reduce that effect.
Where was the motor making max power Scott?as far as amp draw I mean.

Can you explain how you went about narrowing the hoods?? Thanks!!!!!!!!

Mine make max power between 30 and 40, pretty wide power band on them.

Just pinch the hoods together so the brush doesnt have so much slop side to side cory.
I think they should make max power around 30-32 amps,anything over that is wasted on an oval track cause if you gear one deep enough to average 35+ amps it just gets hot and falls off a ton.

You can tell if your D5 motor needs to have the brush hoods squeezed......the brush will look blcak on one side and broke in on the other ......it make a huge difference ......

BOB WRIGHT ,what kind of motors are you running and what is the amp draw at 2 volts with fan ???//

SRM

SMR, What should the amp draw be at 2 with a fan?? My D5 stuff draws around 11.5 with a fan at 1 volt.

HOOP, I just went down and looked at my D5 stuff, yes there is quite a bit of play. I squeezed them with the brush in it and then checked the play, feels good to me!!

You gonna race mod or 19t tomorro cory?
Ronn said you had other driver issues last time :drunk:

Yeah I will be running open. This time I will be fast enough to get away from the other driver I had the issues with!!!!

HOOP, do you not have your MSM account anymore?? It says you don't exsist.

Ok, well On friday I had the opertunity to run a Putnam Binary 19 turn in two heats, and then I also ran a D5 motor with a Hand wound Trinity 19 turn arm (Mabuchi wrap) I had a ARCORNITE endbell on this motor (stand up brushes). On the dyno before, both motors looked pretty good, had more power then any of my ohter motors did previously. (both these motors are new to me this weekend). I geared them using Golden's dyno viewer, based on my last/best proformance with my ARCORNITE motor.

My best qualifing effort came with the Binary setup, however my best lap time came with the D5(standup) setup. My conclusion is/was... I need more testing... :) I the differance between the two was not much...

After the race... I dynoed both motors a few more times... The Big brushes looked GREAT, the Binary motor actualy put out more power after two runs then it did before... The D5 with stand up brushes ran OK after with about 126 watts peak, prior to the two heats it ran, it was close to 130. The big brush Binary was actualy putting out 130 after it's two heats.

Now... I was using Putnam 'X brushes' in the motor with stand up hoods, and well at this point I don't know what the big brushes are as far as compound. The face of the X brush was all pitted up, and really looked pretty bad, yet the big comm brush looked great. The comms on both looked pretty good...

My future testing will be more related to brush compound... Trying to determin if it's the size of the brush or the compund that's making the 'after race' dyno results so appealing. I suspect it's all related to compound, since the big brushes were narrowed so they were virtualy identical to the stand up brushs in terms of contact surface area.

I also don't think the differance in after race had anything to do with quad magnet vs. two magnet... but I'll have to keep an eye out and see if I can duplcate the good post race brush results with a two magnet can...

So... for me the jury is still out... Ah. and then there are them darn hemi winds to deal with... And I was planing on working more on chassis setup and driving this season.... :)

i'm having fits on gearing these new motors...I have d5's and am finding i have to gear the hell out of them to get any rip !!! is this a common finding?
Is there a real logical format based on track footage ?
TJ

SRM-The D5 will not draw more that 8.5A no matter what I do to it.The Arcornites and the TI cans will draw between 10.5 and 13 depending on brushes and springs.

I have some D5 19turns Putnam, Kisby, Team 1. They all are over 10 amps at a 1.5 volts. The timing is only 36 deg. :thumbsup:

Yesterday and saturday I ran my NEW CRC XLR8 D5 19t. After 2 heat out of the car it had a draw of 10.6 at 2volts. Then dynoed the motor and it produced 97.99watts, 23750rpm, 1.151torque, and 55% eff..
And that was at full timing. This motor was geared at a 2.19 rollout on I believe to be 160ft flat carpet track. Ran great all day with minmum cleaning and no rebuild. :thumbsup:

JBM Congrats on your win at Marshall's with a good run. But I was right behind you with a good run also. I ran a Putnam D5 with the usual set up ( green and blue brush). Rolled out to 2.14 at 2amps it draw about 12.5amps with a fan. Can forget those SMC's to push it. JM

Hey Dyno got the info on your website. What do the codes stand for in all the motors that I am able to download. Can you help with the stats on them like brushes and springs and types, etc.