How about this everyone post their spring and brush combos and how many ampos they pull at 1.00 volt with a fan ..... I think everyone knows its all about amp draw for 19turn motors .....


Heres my favorite combo Orion highsilver brushes with a .0050 hole in the center and an orion red and silver spring ....10amps at 1 volt ....

SRM :thumbsup:

Hey Scarecrow!!! What are you doing napping!! Your points are on the nats layout are very well taken. We have been at our committee level have been kicking back and forth the nats layout, quals, when to start, when to handout (tires motors etc.), rained events (you and I both know that one!), and trying to make the event accessible for everybody. We have been even thining about suggesting on moving the carpet nats to November time frame due to Snowbirds and the ARCOR events cluttered in late winter and spring.

Kenny B

Why November Kenny? You have the Norrca Oval nats and the Cleveland Indoor champs? Dont think November would be too good either.

ea

Hey Eric! Nothing is being moved...it was part of a discussion. Just trying to relay we have looked at options. The time period looked at October to December. But we also run into headaches with paved oval dates, especially later summer. Trying to look at Easter, Spring break for college....a bunch of items.

Oh well....nothing has been changed, but been in discussion.

Kenny B

Yeah I have one of the Reedy Quads too and so far have not been too impressed with it. Compared to others (Kisbey & Putman) on the dyno, the Reedy is not very good.
Rob ( Murdocks RC) highly recommends the KC Racing motors. Have you had any experience with them. How do they compare? I'm thinking about trying one but haven't completly decided yet. I have not been able to find any one around here that runs them.

RC

I have a Fantom and a Putnam but race with people with the KC one and it runs just as good as the others and for the most part they are cheaper than most out there.

So no one wants to post their brush and srping setups for the 19turn ,,,,HUM OK

SRM :thumbsup:

Hey Steve, at the NORCCA Nats in Akron I ran 19 turns from KC Racing. The way we build them is easy. Red orion spring on the neg side and a silver orion on the pos side with 2 orion brushes. Full face brushes. My epic motors pull 11.20+ amps @ 1 volt with NO fan. Anything else let me know.

Later,
Adam Liehr
Team Hyperdrive
John's BSR racing tires
KC Racing
Finishline Racing Products
Bolink Bodies
Precision Racing Systems

Ray,
I have a Bulit and a KC (both Ti based) and I like them both. With the Reedy's, it seems as though the magnets have to be strong to have a good motor. Mine don't look great on a Dyno, but they run good on the track.
Jake

HI ADAM the newest NAtional Champ.....Again Congrats on your win and I built mine the same way ....... It seems that its all about the AMP draw on these motors .....

SRM hope to see you and the family in FLA>>>>>>>hint hint

:thumbsup:

Not sure if the amp draw means as much as you think...I usually run strait 4383's, 2 purple springs. I just cut the comm between every run and break in for 800 seconds at 1 volt at 0 tining to prevent comm burn. Motor is usually nowhere near what you guys are seeing for amp draw. Not that I'm that great at 19 turn, but I know last week I ran a 42 402 in swansea, Nick Dorocz is the only guy that's gone faster than that, and the motor was drawing 7 amps with a fan at 2 volts. I ran a 58 4 flat at k/n with a motor that looked similar, and only 2 people have gone any faster than that there, so I'm not all that sure you really need to see that many amps. Just have a good car, a good stick, and hang lots of gear on it and they usually just go.

Lamballs is correct. Amp draw doesn't directly equate to power... In fact, it can have the opposite effect. Excessive amp draw can result in increased heat and increased battery consumption. A motor that runs hotter and uses more battery may not finish as strong as a motor that is running cooler and isn't as far down the battery's voltage curve.
In the classes where runtime is an issue, if you increase your energy consumption by a greater percentge than the horsepower you get in return, you will typically be slower overall...even though your motor is creating more horsepower. There are exceptions to the rule, of course... :thumbsup:

hey lamballs, don't forget about me i've ran that too. :D and none of my motors were drawing that big amp maybe 7-8 amps usually with my PUTNAM d5 based 19 turns. i am not a big believer on the amp draw number or the dyno for that matter i've put motors drawing 7 amps and had them go as fast as motors drawing 10-12. and motors that don't look that great on a dyno go fast on the track. i would trust jason and Todd on this one as jason is a guy who runs fast every where he goes and todd builds the best motors out there well keep up the good work todd. and maybe i'll see ya saturday jason i wanna run some mod i got my car going good now i think??? :confused: Brad

I'm glad others besides me are speaking up with opions that AMP draw doesn't mean that much... At times I feel like I'm the only one suggesting that it doesn't...

As for dynos... it is very easy to misinutrpet dyno data... I hear and see frequently that many of the best racers don't use dynos at all, or very little at a minimum. I know this is ture...

My opion of what a good motor looks like on a dyno has changed significantly over the past year or so... I do beleive that for stock and 19 turn motors I can judge a good motor about 90% of the time now... That means... I fully admit there are other times when I'm still not fully understanding what my dyno is telling me...

When batteries get involved and run time becomes a issue... it's most deffintely true, that motor output at the sake of exsessive motor input, is not going to win races...

Dyno- you're 100% correct. I threw my dyno out the last time it blew up, and I am forever glad I did rather than wasting the money to fix it. The Track is always the best dyno, hands down. Besides, the dyno only tests the motor when it is cold, to really get a feel for a good motor, you'd have to test it cold, warm, hot, etc. What constitutes cold, warm, hot as far as tempature wise goes, I have no idea. I agree also that when it get's to the point that battery capacity becomes an issue (like 19 turn will as soon as quad cans and laydown brushes are legal) it does become a little more difficult, but again, timed runs on the track will reveal what works well before any dyno number ever will.

Jason

It seems funny to me that Rick Talbot says that amp draw is very important to 19turn racing .His quote was its all about the amp draw in this racing ........HUM I guess I will throw out my high amp draw and run the low amp draw stuff...... NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SRM :thumbsup:

I"ve never had the pleasure of meeting Mr Talbot... however from what I am told, he could do quite well with just about any old motor...

I agree Miller, all I ever look at on any motor is amp draw.

Ok... so all you guys that say amp draw is everything... I've got a couple questions...

What do you do to increase amp draw? Doesn't increasing spring tension more or less always increase amp draw on any given motor? If you answer yes to that last question, do you always run the heaviest springs you can possibly find on your motors?

Dyno, I ussually run two purple springs, the springs dont change the amp draw as much as running the correct brush. A smaller comm ussually raises amps as well :thumbsup:

I see... I agree that all that stuff will make a motor pull more amps...

I still think that in many cases I could give you fast guys a motor that pulls less current then you normaly might use, and could go just as fast if not faster with one I tuned...

Or if you don't beleive I could do it... then how about we get Todd to put one together for you? :)

Next time your in lansing, hook me up with some dyno power for 19t. When are you gonna start play'n with mod motors?.......... Im gonna hire dyno to come to big races and build motors for me. :D
You guys would all be in trouble. I give ya props dyno, you know your stuff. :thumbsup:

Dyno I aggree that with less amp draw you could put more pinion on the motor and maybe go as fast ..... Most fo the guys running 60 laps at Akron were running 1-11amps at 1volt.........

I would like more info on how to go fast with less amp draw....

SRM :thumbsup:

I guess where some of our confusion and disagreement comes from is related to standup vs. laydown brushes

My personal opion is full faced lay down brushes almost always use exsessive power because of exsessive brush overlap. The first thing I typicaly do is to is trim the trailing edge of the brush. I start out small... like taking .010" off... this will generaly decrease the amp draw. The motor will ussualy run more effcienctly, yet still have very good RPM and power.

Now since we seem to be mainly refering to ARCOR motors and/or stand up brushes... there is basicly no such thing as brush overlap... so, I guess when it comes to ARCOR legal 19 turn motors, more amp draw is probably better in about 99.999% of the time...

Don't get me wrong about one thing... good motors often do draw more current then bad motors... but it can be deceiving too, perticularly when it comes to motors with lay down brushes. The bottom line for me, is that I see amp draw as just one of many things to look at.

...Replace your bearing oil with glue. Once you bind up the bearings, amp draw will increase thus making your motor faster... :thumbsup:

Seriously, I have had high amp draw motors run well, and I've also had lower amp draw motors run well. I am also not saying that the guys tht had motors pulling 11+ amps weren't fast...but could they have been faster? As for what Talbot ran, I'm pretty sure I have an idea of what he ran... :cool:
Trust me when I tell you that there is more to the equation then just amp draw... :dude:

"The bottom line for me, is that I see amp draw as just one of many things to look at." you've come a long way since the "no load amp draw is basiclly meaningless days..." :thumbsup:

Well pancartom... I think I just was using the wrong words previously... I still think that often people put way to much emphisis on amp draw...

I beleive my previous words were... 'by itself, amp draw means nothing'... I think that's basicly still a true statment... however it is probably easier for someone to mis interpet what I really mean....

anyway... now I've got Todd Putnam to back me up... Need I say more? :)

If you know what a motor will do at a specific amp draw then it means something. We run Putnam D5's with Big T silver springs and Orion brushes with holes in them, if the amp draw isn't over 11 then they won't run on the track. That is how it works for us. Now some motors don't draw any amps and run good, but I rarely see this, now I don't see tons of motors though.

I agree to some extent that once you know what type of amp draw to expect from some perticular motor combination (motor, brush, spring, timing, etc...) you can use amp draw as some indicator of the motor's present condtion. At that point however, you know more then just amp draw... you know other details, so you put it all together and it means something more then if you know just one piece of the puzzle.

I personaly like to look at some specfic number, and not simply figure more amp draw is better... If motor X in good condtion pulls 11 amps, with some perticular brush, spring, timing, combo... then if it starts pulling 13 amps all the sudden, I would be looking to find out what's wrong, rather then assuming it's going to run better on the track... At the same time if it starts pulling 8 amps, when it normaly would pull 11, I would start looking for something wrong as well.

If I'm making a change to a differnt brush, or spring, etc... I will use my dyno first, track second... and then start looking at the amp draw for furture refferance... if the motor never runs well on the track then I just forget all of this, and try something differnt, or go back to what was working for me previously.



I assume we are still talking about 19 turn motors here as well... I mean some of this applys to full mod motors, but I would not begin to pretend I know much about anything lower then a 19 turn...

Tto the P are you sure ,you must have changed your labels J/K :tongue:

SRM...Yup, you're correct. Rick told me that Andy sent him his own personal stuff to test, and he ran it in practice. It was impressive on the dyno and in the amp draw category, but was slower on the track... :dude:

AUGH YEAH thats what I meant SRM :thumbsup:

Gee, SRM...Be careful of what you insinuate...
They who live in glass house shouldn't throw stones... :cool:

I personally think every motor has a sweet spot,using a fantom dyno i always check motor under a 30 amp. load & see what it is producing,& look at r.p.m.& tq. DOM-19

T to the P you are a very insightful man see ya at the Blast.......


SRM :thumbsup:

SRM: Ah, insightful I am. I wouldn't want to get any of your teammates in trouble for running my arms or KSG cars... :cool:
cya at the Blast... Bring your 6 cell sticks :thumbsup:

UGH YEAH I GUESS, I NEED TO GET SOME 6 CELL STICKS SO WE CAN PLAY ......

WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND THAT I GET FOR ARMS OR THE BLAST AND FLA......................CAN YOU pm ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE ....


srm :thumbsup:

Just bring this back to the top. Hate to see this thread fade away. Alot of good info in here. Would like to see more about what we should be seeing on Turbo Dynos.

RC

I read over on RCcars.com that CE's thoughts of buiding more Dynos, are partly just plans... it may happen, but it seems they are not like currently making them or anything. Really if you would like a new TurboDyno, you'd really probably be wise to call CE directly... you know what they say... 'the squeeky wheel gets the grease'... I would thinmk that the more people calling them, the more they'd persue it...

Besides that... then you'd get first hand kowlege...


Todd Putnam, if your still around.... Could you give us a short course and/or your opion on any differacnes there may be between the Reedy Quad Magnet arangement and the EPIC Binary Magnet arangement? What I mean is some people claim there are differances in the way the magnets are oriented on each side... Is there any real differance in terms of magnet polarity ( near the gap/cut on any given side of the motor)... Also... what gives the EPIC the cog effect, while the Reedy has none? (I've heard it's the shape of the magnets and/or airgap but don't know if that's accurate or not)

Dyno ...If you were responding to me ...I didn't mean I wanted to buy one. I meant I would like to see what kind of data we should be seeing that consitutes a decent motor. I know somewhere that Todd had posted that we should be setting the dynos based on Torque values...I'm just wondering what kind of numbers as far as Watts, Amps and maybe even RPM, we should be looking for based on the Torque settings. I'm mostly looking for info on 19T although I do have some Modified motors I run so any info on those too would be great.

RC

Oh, I see, yes I did misunderstand your previous comment...

I went looking, Todd had discussed the Torque steps and how to interpet them in the thread called something like 'new 4 magnet stock motors'...

He gave some torque steps, and basicly said that the higher torque steps represent low end, and the lower torque steps represent straight aways... The more power the better at each step, the more effciency the better at each step...

Hey guys I have been reading through here, what are the name or part # of the Orion brushes that work good in the 19T's?

The brushes your looking for from ORION as far as I know aren't being made any longer :cry:

Eroc1331 Murdock has them,Im not sure of the part number.I was also told the Kisby 19t brushes that rc4less sells are Orions.

I am not sure but everyone calls them Orion's but I have never seen a brush from them that looks anything like the one we have been using. If it is an Orion, I would like to know the Orion PN on it. Good 19t brush, even works good in open mod too.

Contact Bill Kellom @ bulit motorsports, he uses them in his 19t motors

Those with the small indent in the top and bottom are # 4409,or 4099,but they are discontinued.Bruce Triplett posted this a while back and sold out his remaining stock.Kisbey's # was 308.

Orion PN's are 5 digits long though. It don't really matter if they aren't available anymore though.

yea,saw that,just posted what was on the card of them i have.lys disc. so it don't matter

Part numberfrom ORION is 41002 I belive they are not in stock at this time ......Maybe some cals to ORION USA could get them back l.....In MOD racing its 2-3 seconds faster than any other brush at this time ......SRM