BOB Wright MUST BE A BAD ARM OR CAN that is way to low os amp draw....... The rest of your motors sound good......

I ran a FANTOM 19D5 motor at Marshalls last weekend [one round on Sunday and it was HANIUS fast I ran 2.14rollout and 2 purple srpings the motor shut off the TURBO at 2volts.....PULLUPON YA .....

This is a good thread hope it continues....
SRM :hat:

Bob Wright...

I took my lowly 85 watter, squeezed on the brush hoods, worked on the alignment, the motor is now a 95 watter...not the best, but gaining :thumbsup:

We just ran the Bulit Motorsports 19Turn handwound motors from Bill Kellum at the U.S. Concrete Oval R/C Championships. They were awesome. Power numbers 95-99 with either Orion or Lightspeed brushes.

Not a single competitor had anything but praise for the motors.

Bob

Unfortunatly I bought a d5 based fantom 19t sunday that is the worst one I have seen yet,I would be happy with 85 watts but this thing has serious issues.
Oh well Its the first bad ARCOR based 19t I have ever bought so Im not really complaining to much.
Who sells epic 19t arms online??

I replaced the brushes in my kisbey 19 turn ( epic based ) to 4383's and picked up about 10 points on power ( 85 to 95 ) and alot more torque. I'm not sure what brushes came in it, looked like the orion style brushes. I'm confused if they were Orions, cause i've heard alot of good stuff about them. Does anybody have any input on these brushes? Also, does anybody know for sure if those were the brushes that come in the kisbey 19 turns?

Todd Gross

Some thing interesting in the "Talk to ROAR" area concerning 19trn rules.

Todd Gross, yes the kisbey motors come with the orion brushes, we are getting between 93-97 watts with them.

AGAIN FOR OVAL ONLY>>>> 19-turn limited modified rules.

· 19-turn motors shall be based upon any ROAR approved modified motor combination (arm and can) with a 19-turns and 19-gauge wire. This will remove the need for winder combinations and certifications. · We will allow quad magnets in 19-turn for oval. · Allow lay-down or standup brushes just like modified class. · Approved armatures must have a defined inductance range (verifies length of wire) · Approved arms must meet a minimum weight for either drilled or epoxy balanced arms. · Define a maximum of 36 degrees of tim

Besides the lay down brushes it a good rule package IMO.

JEFF TR,

I bought some 'Kisbey' brushes for my 19 turns. they have a slot cut on the top and bottom of the brush, maybe 1/64" deep. they are serrated. do u think these are the orion brush that everyone is talking about? not that familiar w/ the different brushes Kisbey sells.....

HOOPD1 is the motor drawing AMPS of just not working right>????If you give me the info I am sure I can help SRM :thumbsup:

Scott, I'm pretty sure that the Kisby and Orion are the same brush and I like them alot, good power and not very hard on the com.

See you in Vinton.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

KISBEY uses the super stock Orion brush ..I have been useing them in 4 cell mod also and they seem to be better than the trinity 4383 ///// Mr Kisbey knows his motors...Ar ethe brushes the ones with the vents on the sdie


SRM :thumbsup:

Now that ROAR is changing all the 19t motor rules, we can all run P-94 brushes... LOL! :devil:

I tried some brushes that I was told were made by 'orion', and I was not very impressed.

The most impressive brush I've seen recently are the 4379 brushes I most recently used on the Putnam Binary 19 turn motor I was testing... They were awesome really...

I also had good luck with some Reedy 729s or is that (728?) the new Reedy stand up brush anyway...

LOOK to me like ROAR is saying that laydowns are back in the 19turn scene..... DYNO try a laydown brush like 768 hollows and let us know SRM :thumbsup:

Laydown brushes and adjustable timing... YIKES!

I tried an Orion Element 19t with the tiny endbell tab cut off... You can dial in more power than you can use! Not only do you get more "wrap", but at a 36 degree limit, the laydown gains you an additional few degrees of timing for that extra Zoom!

Off-Topic, but: Also nice for special cases like a local indoor offroad track (very tight and technical) -- dial down to about 12 degrees for TONS of bottom end punch and very smooth, drivable power...

So... What makes you comment about ROAR's apparent direction on thes matters SMR? is there something published
yet?

4379's are the way to go. :thumbsup:

Dyno, check the "ROAR" section. new 19t rules for oval. quad-magnet, any brush, adjustable timing.

I personally think this is an extremely bad move on ROAR's part, not so much on the motor end, because you have to adapt to the motor suppliers changes but 19t just became a runtime war. And what about the hundreds of 19t guys out there that have good deadshorted packs with 350 seconds of runtime. Plenty for current 19t rules. New 19t rules...not so much.

Ahhh, the joys of running modified.

It could be better for the average club racer. I find it easier to find good runtime packs over high voltage. IMO, 19t needs 1 motor. every body should have to run the same motor combo. Like Danny said All it is now is a limited mod class.

I found it... it's in the thread called something like ExComm report...

Personaly... I like the fact that you can virtualy run ANY 19 turn motor under what appears to be the new Oval 19 turn rules... I'm just getting started on all this 19 turn stuff, so I don't have much of a collection of stuff YET... but I really prefer this new relaxed rule format... basicly it's any 19 turn Modified motor... Change the hoods, stand up, lay down, big square, etc... I haven't seen the actual 'specs' on the inductance range yet however... that may very well throw a monkey wrench in there... That and there is no statment as to the 'minimum weight' spec for the arm...

So... will Hemi winds now dominate ROAR 19 turn oval racing?

Oh boy, new can of worms..... :mad:

SRM,it seems to be the arm.When i put a known good arm in the can with same brush spring combo the motor makes 97 watts and 24,200 rpm with a decent power band.With the Fantom arm the best I have got it was 89 watts at 22,000 rpm and it doesnt make max power until like 41 amps :eek:
I was really suprised cause all the Fantom stuff I bought in the past was great.Heck I have had TI based Fantom 19ts that were 100 watts.
Oh well the way ROAR is going with 19t rules I think I will just plan to buy cells more often and run mod...........Anybody wanna buy a Fantom 19t only driven once on sunday :lol: :lol:

i'm not at all happy about the rules either! i'm not sure i will be able to dump any combo 19 turn motor creation though? i still come back with 65 seconds of run time at 30 amps? will lay down green shunt brushes and quad magnets effect my run time that much? mike boylan is looking like a freaking genious now! :(

Mike b is a r/c genius guess i will only run the races he promotes from now on man they are trying to destroy the 19t class now.

Donnie

Maybe A.R.C.O.R. rules aren't so bad after all....

I was just over reading some comments on the rc conference regarding the new 19t rules and some others. I have to say,I wish I had sent $10.00 to dave so I could post there.
Oval wings must have two side dams???
40 0z to slow the cars down?????
And basicly 19t is a free for all,any arm,any brush,any can........I wonder who will be the first to come up with the gotta have 19t combo??And wich national level race will it be released at or days before to put the average racer at an instant disadvantage.
Who's ideas were these?Two side dams on an oval car thats just to funny,see what you started rcavenger,You crush track records at a national event with one side dam and its instantly illeagal. :lol: :lol:
I wish this ROAR renewal card was made of a little softer paper so I could get some use outta it after dinner.

The C2s is hemi wound? Who is going to be the first to come out with the new fast 19turn? :confused: Might have to get some full mod motors to stay out of the motor of the month club. When do the new rules go into effect?

...Mike Boylan is part of the Oval Committee.....

Kenny B

Man it's funny how when thing change everybody cries foul. The 19-turn motor rule as shown is the SAME rule used in the last 2 oval nationals under the current ROAR rules. The rule used was any EPIC arm/can or yok arm/can comibination with 36 degrees max timing. The only change for next year was allowing the QUAD cans and laydown brushes. Nothign else has changed.

NO MANUFACTURER has petitioned any of the changes. No rubber stamps. The class as defined is "limited modified" class. The rule also allows a driver to compete in two modified classes by simply introducing a different arm (19 single and say a 10 double).

In addtion, this will not require a "builder's list" to be constructed and will actually help in teching.

On the local track level, tracks can decide what they want to run anyway. They can say no quads for their track. The formal rules apply at the national event or ROAR sanctioned events.

Kenny B
ROAR Oval Committee Chair

On the local track level, tracks can decide what they want to run anyway. They can say no quads for their track. The formal rules apply at the national event or ROAR sanctioned events.

And how is this supposed to help attendance at regionals and nats?
Say my track doesnt allow quad mags,but I want to go to a ROAR race and race 19t so I buy a couple quad mag motors for the race,when its over they collect dust because my local track won't let me run them.
Unfreaking believable.

Kenny, I will say once again how much I appreciate your unselfish approach to your ROAR role. I understand the heat you take for this kind of innovative thinking. Think folks are reading more into this change than needs to be. You pretty much put it in perspective in your last post.

I believe that cooler heads will prevail when they have time to absorb what is happening. Not usre what direction we will go locally on 19Turn but we'll let the racers guide us.

Bob

Simply put..It's a LIMITED modified class..right -on.. Good call.. The 19t class has always been a can of worms class anyway.. Now it's pretty much run what ya brung limited to only 19t,19wire,and a weight and timing limitation.. Sounds and is a lot better than the current 19t arcor type rules where all the contraversy and rule revisions has been over the last 18months.

Asfar as the quads go they haven't been the way to go yet in modified,and as far as laydowns.. go buy some hoods and put them on your current 19t mills... gee 3-4 bucks for some hoods.. big deal..

It seems like some of you have lost allready and haven't even been beat by someone running the "NEW" rules motors....

Too all at Roar.. Good call and let the ripping begin..

No offense Kenny, but the 2003 rules that are in the rule book are ALOT differnt then this new set... I personaly much perfer this new direction as I feel the old set of rules were rather confusing... It seems the way 'old' rules were interpeted and enforced at previous ROAR races, may not have been the way I personaly would interpet the actual text that was/is in the 2003 rule book.

I'd still like further clarification on this new direction... such as... what IS THE MINIMUM weight of a legal 19 turn armature? (presumably it's the same weight for ALL 19 turn arms, no mater who makes them, winds them, etc...) I'd also like to know what the actual minimum inductance is... (presumably that's low enough that any current Hemi wound armature will be over the minimum).


I really do love this new direction for the 19 turn limited class... I don't think this is going change things as much as some people seem to think it will. My personal testing gives me no reason to think that everyone will have to go buy a Quad magnet can all of the sudden, and your current hand wound arm will likely be pretty darn competitive still... I surely don't see how people will start dumping a good set of 3300s with a 19 turn motor... I typicaly come off the track with around 90 seconds right now, and most people I race with have simmilar amounts of battery left... (and we already race 'run what you brung 19 turn')

I like the new rules also.I'm a little disappointed that laydown brushes will be legal since I just dead shorted 6 new packs of batteries.I think this will take the confusion out of the rules and make a better stepping stone to mod.IMO.

Bigger batts (if you aren't using more of your pack you aren't rolled right), hemi arms and laydowns will be a must now!!!!!! It will be dead shortly. Glad I run mod now!!!!!

ok i went to the confrence site and read all 50 replies!

first off..kenny B mike boylan is a member of the oval commitee..and guess what? he owns the rights to the largest r/c event in the world every year.. do you know what motor he chose to use at next years largest r/c race in both 19 turn and stock? yup hand outs! hand out 19 turns and hand out stockers! why????????

i read jay kimbroughs response about ROAR does not vote in a rule because a manufacturer asks them to! his argument was reedy could care less what the racers buy..we dont buy as many motors as "back yard bob does" ok lets say that is true..THAN WHY VOTE IN QUAD MAGNETS AND LAY DOWN BRUSH HOODS? it was back yard bob who wanted those motors not us (the racers)

and kenny i know this is not all your doing and i'm not going to blame any one person..i'm sure this is alot of peoples fault ..arcor allows the racers to vote on what they would like to use for rules the next year? why cant roar do more of that? this way if we (the racer) dont vote it is our fault not the oval commitees? in this day and age i'm sure someone could come up with a way for the (roar) members to vote online using our current roar numbers..if a numbers is used twice only the 1st vote counts..no chance for duplicate votes?

now a local (roar) track will have to have a scale to weigh arms and a gauss meter handy to tech all 19 turn motors?

i feel the only races who will abide by the current rules will be of a national level? are these rules written in stone? is there still time to allow the racers a say?

all i ever wanted from the 19 turn rules was to make the current motors easier to tech..(longer arms and tags on all arms) and it would have been real nice to kinda limit the amount of different combinations of end bells and armatures and wraps and cans!

you also keep stating that the new rules are the same as the old rules? no way! besides the old rules weren't perfect anyways! lol

please go back and erase what was written down..clap the eraser outside and allow us to vote on "our" rules...please with lay down brushes on top..

ALLOW THE RACERS TO VOTE ON WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO RACE IN 04..DONT LET BACK YARD BOB DESTROY OUR 19 TURN CLASS.. let the quad magnets and lay down brushes for the basher..

it's never too late is it?

1) make the current motors easier to tech
2) make the armatures extend past the end bell (like the C2)
3) pick a type of wind and stay with that type (not 3 different wraps)
4) epoxy balanced armatures only (no drill holes at all)
5) only stand up brush hoods (no lay down, no p94)
6) open timing
7) all armatures must be tagged( example putnam 19 turn)
8) 2 magnets (let us go a full year and see if we need to introduce quad magnets in 05)

i'm not a motor builder and i no very little about motors. but i'm a oval racer and i know how many feel..shoot i'm gonna get flamed for most of my ideas on the rules anyways,lol.

19 turn is a stepping stone towards mod racing, for sure..but what you propose is a monster sized leap..crawl = stock 19 turn = walk mod = run c'mon work with us here.. thanks kenny for having the brass tacks to come here and defend the commitee..now step up and fix what ya broke..please.. :thumbsup:

NOOOOO.....this is alot better.....now to go fast in 19turn....i can buy an Epic Motor, a yokomo motor, take them both apart....put one p94 brush hood on one side, a laydown hood on the other, with the yokomo arm in my epic can. ....but hey thats cool....cause i only gotta worry about doing that with motors at a regional or national event where i would have travel expenses + the cost of racing for 3 days or so and with this new rule it will surely make it more attractive for people to run a larger ROAR event :confused: Ponder this ROAR EX COMM lets imagine the 2 local ROAR tracks in my area subscribe to different trains of thought lets say. ROAR sanctioned track "A" ....says hey whatever it says in the ole trusty rule book is ok with us.....so now you gotta build a "frankenstein motor" to go fast there....i.e. by 2 complete motors to build one fast one....not real cost effective is it??. ROAR sanctioned track "B" says hey we want to keep costs under control for their saturday night racing program, so we will only allow epic and yokomo motors to be used in their same manufacturer cans and no quad magnets. Now to race at this track i gotta buy another motor cause i cant use the left over parts from the one i built to race at track "A" on friday nights.....again added expense.

but hey as long as the manufacturer's can build their "super" motors at the regionals and nationals.....all is a-ok with the rules package :freak: :(

Good move on ROARS part.This will actually make tech a LOT easier. With EPIC making the D5 can in both 2 and 4 magnet versions, they are identical in appearance from the outside. Under the old rules a motor would have to actually have to be torn apart to tell what someone is running. Now it doesnt matter either way, both are legal.
Second, Reedy is stopping production of the Ti standard Mag cans. All future Ti cans will be made up of 4 mags so if you want to run the great Ti can in the future we will be able to now in quad configuration.
The best part is now everyone can run what they want, standard,quad, standup or laydown as long as it is a 19 turn tagged arm and approved can. With adjustable timing and 3300's laydowns will not be the battery killer they used to be with 2400's and fixed timing.
Rules seem to shake out for the best and it seems the 19 turn class has finally come around to where it needs to be instead of those ridiculous ARCOR rules that were impossible to enforce in the first place.
Motor restrictions only work with aggressive teching and drivers who dont fight for strict rules, then stretch the limits of the rules they voted for in the first place. GOOD JOB ROAR! I'm renewing my membership ASAP. Our track recently dropped ARCOR and went back to ROAR and the racers seem to be returning to the oval.

Katfish...remember Mike also has a major motor sponsor under writing the event.

Guys..no offense taken. Everybody has an opinion and you are welcome to post. Time will tell if we went off the deep end.

Be patient and give it a try.

Kenny B

Kenny You know me I was just being a smart A$$ LOL, I don't even run the class

kenny.....went right from the mouse into the fire, huh? just close your eyes and remember your "happy place".....we gonna do a re-visit in a couple months?

Kenny B,

I feel honored:) I remember our 'trackside' conversation where u said that wing rule would probably change...guess u weren't joking! LOL...doesnt really matter to me, just never had a ROAR rule changed cause of somethin i 'cooked up' :D
HOOPD...I about rolled on the floor when Duley told me about that rule change last night :)

when do these rule changes go into effect? Jan 1, 2004?

That would be my guess... but technicaly ROAR could publish rule changes at any time if they chose too, they would just have to put it out on the web page etc...

Gee Take a Nap for a Day and the Whole R/C World go to @&#@ in a Hat Box.
Competition between manufactures is a good thing. Without competition we would still be using wiper speed controls and Am radios.
If everyones concern is about the "19t class" then change the name to "Limited Mod" then all 19t motors can be used.

To me the biggest issue is the single "A" mains and the addition of another qualifer. (If the Promoter wishes to do so) Yes this will bring the cream to the top for the "A" mains, but just as well will bring alot of protests on the starts for the race.

Believe me I agree with single "A" mains it does shorten the program and brings on more excitement. You as a driver need to be on your game when the buzzer go off.

I do feel there is more that needs to be looked into for National events.
1) lenght of event (3 days or 4 days)
2) How many Quals in 1 day.
3) When to Resort Quals.
4) Rain Dalays (When do you call the race for the day)
5) Move the race to Thursday thru Saturday and having Sunday as a rain day or a travel day)

Anyway just as long as everyone is still racing and have fun to me that's all that matters.

Have fun racing where ever it is.

Ken "The Only Scarecrow" Holmes

Just bringing this back to the top. Would like to read more thoughts and opinions on 19t motors. Not the ROAR rules though...there's already a thread going for that.

RC

Hey Scarecrow!!! What are you doing napping!! Your points are on the nats layout are very well taken. We have been at our committee level have been kicking back and forth the nats layout, quals, when to start, when to handout (tires motors etc.), rained events (you and I both know that one!), and trying to make the event accessible for everybody. We have been even thining about suggesting on moving the carpet nats to November time frame due to Snowbirds and the ARCOR events cluttered in late winter and spring.

Kenny B

Thanks for brining this back to the top RoadSplat... I deffintely think the 19T RIP thread should remain seperate from this discussion...

I've been running a Trinity D5 can with the P-94 brushes (the odd shaped ones) and a arm that was hand wound by someone at Trinity. I feel it's my best running motor at this time. I've tried running a Reedy Quad with laydown burshes and big comm, with adjustable timing (the tab removed from the Reedy 'super spec' motor). So far I just can't go as fast with the Reedy.. I've only had it on the track a couple times howerver... but I instantly gained a tenth by switching to the D5 motor, so I had very little incentive to go back. I'm not done yet with the Reedy... I've got another Reedy that goes better on the dyno then the first, but I need to leave the timing tab on it for a while, and have not yet had a chance to run it on the track.

Oh, and I know longer have it, but the Binary can I had for testing was every bit as fast as the D5 can I have, but I can't really say it was any faster, very simmilar actualy.