Without rules why even have classes???? Nick your doing the right thing. Even if you allowed quad mags people would still bit&h. their are rules in racing, everyone has to run the same stuff...Deal with it. If you want to tinker run open mod. stock is supposed to be stock= equal. When they become legal at big races then allow them. People need to stop bit%^ing and be happy theres a great place to race at in Mi. that supports oval as much as Nick does. keep up the good work Nick.

Glenn, The thing you need to remember is it is not a stock motor!!! Period- end of story. If anyone wants to run it there is plenty of practice time to do testing.

Frank, Mod- if we can get a group of 5-6 fast guys. I asked Keith about it last week aswell. I think most are having fun with the close racing in 19 turn though. Walter

I need to start trying some different setups for the birds, what days are oval prac during the week. You going to Florida this year?

Frank, we run Thursday night practice. Track opens at 5pm, open until 10pm.

I ain't *itching... not by any means. I just think it's kind a funny that for the most part I beleive anyone could run just about anything they wanted to run and as long as they were going a simmilar speed, then as far as I know nobody would probably care a bit if you had a hybrid, or a BS outlaw or what ever... Maybe it's just my impression based on the guys that I typicaly run 19 turn with... I mean for the last several years, it's basicly run what ever 19 turn you want, and there has been a very wide variety of motors run... Anywhere from Chameleons with cranked comms to who knows what... Personaly I would have been unhappy if this had not been the case in 19 turn... So... it just seems funny to me that there appears to be a hard line being drawn for stock... Now, maybe there are valid reasons for this, and I'm not trying to say there aren't or shouldint be... It's just that it's always been my distinct impression that the racers around there are all rather laid back about this sort of thing and it surprizes me that they aren't being that way about this....

End of my story.

There was a drivers meeting, I think last weekend. 19t has alot more strict rules as well. No C1's or 2's. No more than 36 deg. on the timing either.

Presumably this is in an attempt to get closer to what the upcomming ROAR rules are likely to be? If so, for what reason are the Chameleons being banned? (Hemi wind?)

What about the Reedy Quad 19 turn?

Boy I stay away from the track for a few weeks and all the sudden everyone wants to get restrictive on things... What, did someone with a twig up there butt come around? :) (no pun intended...)

Thanks NT Wigs,,

dbr

There was a drivers meeting, I think last weekend. 19t has alot more strict rules as well. No C1's or 2's. No more than 36 deg. on the timing either.

So you can't use C-2's at Lansing,, If so, can I ask why???

dbr

I need to start trying some different setups for the birds, what days are oval prac during the week. You going to Florida this year?
Ya I am going, but no oval this year! It is to much trying to run boh onroad and oval!!! Onroad pays the bills if you know what I mean, see ya fri. Walter

Since we're now on the subject of 19-turn motors, I think Nick needs to clarify what the rules are. I asked if the new Reedy "Spec" motor was legal (quad mag, Hemi, laydowns with a big comm) and the answer I thought I heard (eventually!) was that it had to meet the current ARCOR/ROAR specs for pan cars (but trucks had to use 24 deg spec 19 turns). The answer MOST of the other drivers apparently heard was "anything goes, as long as it's NOT a chameleon", so it was small comm, laydown brush, 36 degree quad magnet time (with optional afterburner and comm drop injector)! So what's the REAL story?? (Subject to change in January when ROAR publishes new rules.)

To add further fuel to the fire, I'm attaching a drawing of the brush/comm relationships of the motors currently on the market. As you can see, the P-94's and laydowns have overlap on standard size comms, which can be used to gain a few more degrees of timing (or to just suck BIG amps for no apparent reason :lol: ). The laydowns on a big (Reedy) comm amount to the same thing as standup brushes on a standard comm (no overlap).

Ok, here are the rules for 4C 19T class:

1. 19T 19 gauge wire

2. No more than 36 degrees of timing in the motor

3. Any 2 or 4 magnet can with Stand-up hoods

4.No hybrids... meaning no C1 arms in D5 can, etc.

5. No C1 or C2, Reedy Original SPEC 19 motors. The reasoning for this is that they are not ARCOR or NORRCA compliant. Since these 2 organzations have already set rules for this class, we will use them as a guideline.

The reasons behind the stating of the rules is that some people were taking advantage of the loose desription of what the 19T class is. I'm not trying to make this class, a rule ladden class, but one that is more equal and fair.

I was under the understanding that the Reedy SPEC Quadmag was legal because it has fixed timing at 24 degrees, and there fore woulud be about equal or less in power than an ARCOR at 36 degree's.....

Clarification Sir Nick...... :p

Sorry if I break the momentum here but I would like to know the rules for any/all truck classes at the hub.
Thank you
Scott Nestle

good ??? Scott, They seem to be changing every week,LOL

Scott the rules for truck classes are as follows:

Stock Truck- 2.2" Rubber tires, ROAR Stock Motor, 6C Battery (Any Type), 64oz.

19T Truck- Any Fixed timing 19T Chameleon 1 or 2, Original Reedy Spec 19 or the Reedy Quad Mag 19. 2.2" Rubber tires, 6C Battery (any type), 64oz.

All trucks must have operating shocks.

I hope this helps Scott.

Nick

Jake as for the Reedy Quad mag, even though it has 24 degrees of timing, it does have laydown brushes, therefore making it illegal for the 4C 19T class.

Jake as for the Reedy Quad mag, even though it has 24 degrees of timing, it does have laydown brushes, therefore making it illegal for the 4C 19T class.
Sorry, I should have clarified more, I know it is illeagal in the pan car class, but I wanted to make sure that people in truck could run it?

hey Nick
i assume your the man who can awnser my question
from what i'm reading about the quad stock motors on your thread
doesn't sound like they are legal at the Hub

so my question is are they ?
just so i can get pre-paired for the warm-ups


hey Frank Ulbrick

tell the bro's i'll be for the warm-up

thanks
jason

They are illegal unless I find out something, like they are the handout motor for Snowbirds. If that is the case then, I will legalize them for the warm-up.

Also, for the 2nd Annual Snowbirds Warm-up, the classes we will be offering will be....

4C Stock Pan

4C 19T Pan

4C Modified Pan

6C Modified Pan

1/12th 4C Modified Pan

Touring Car

Legends

snowbirds site has different hand out motors

do ya have to pre enter for the race
sorry for all the questions but i from indiana and want to
have a god time up there thnks
jason

Jason, no pre-entry required. We have enough pit area for up to 100 racers. So come on up, and have a good time!!!!

Here are the results from last years Snowbirds Warm-up. http://www.rcraceresults.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=69&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

So, as it currently stands, you need a differnt motor for Pan car 19 turn then you can use for Truck 19 turn. My personaly opion is that a really bad thing.


If ROAR proceeds with their previously stated plans of allowing lay down burshes in 19 turn, then what are you going to do? If you want my opion in advance... you should then go back to the previously stated rules of "any 19 turn".

Then that brings up anohter issue... then what will you do with trucks? I asuume you'll still stick with fixed timing motors because apparently the truck guys like that type of motor... What about someone who simply restircts their adjustable timing to 24 degrees?

Glenn, the reasoning for the fixed timing, spec motors is that in the past, there have been racers that have "modified" their motors. The Spec motor makes it easier to do a stop check to make sure that they are compliant. Also, this is not a ROAR class and there are no rules for it. I am once again trying to make racing equal, and fun.

As for the 4C 19T class, I am following the rules put in place by both NORRCA and ARCOR. These seem to be the most accepted rules.

Man i'm glad the Reed quad 19t is legal for truck....i didn't even think to ask....and then there's that 64 oz thing...humm.

I'll be back this week....still have to tune the Reedy 19t Q and change my slow servo.

KA Klash...Dec. 27th. Homer Mich. Flyers coming soon(better late than never), or pick one up on Friday.

rowle1jt, i may have to take you up on your backup car one of these nights.

Later,

Scott
KA KLASH 03-04 (http://www.thercproshop.com/racing/)
Jackson R/C Raceway (http://www.thercproshop.com/racing/)

Nick the only thing I am going to say on the rules is-- what do the racers want??? You asked the stock guys but didn't bother to ask about 19 turn. To me more what it the way it was rather than these new rules. That is my 02 worth. Walter

I was under the understanding that the Reedy SPEC Quadmag was legal because it has fixed timing at 24 degrees, and there fore woulud be about equal or less in power than an ARCOR at 36 degree's.....

Jake (and Nick) - The Reedy quad-mag Spec motor is actually equivalent to an Arcor motor. If you'll look at the GIF file I attached in my earlier post, you'll see that the large comm with laydown brushes produces the same contact pattern as standup brushes with a normal sized comm. Set at 36 degrees, it produced exactly the same power on my dyno as my Reedy Arcor legal motor, but at about 1000 RPM less. At 24 degrees, it's down on power to both Arcors and Chameleons.

So its absolutely no advantage at all? Where is torque at?

Mr. Twigs,

What time do you open up on friday?


Mr. Rotten Hanson Kid,

Are you coming to play on fri?


Mr. Marcy,

Here in Fort Wayne we are starting a Legends class and it is taking off like hot cakes. Right now it is monster stock motor, 81t spur, any steel pinion so you don't need to always have new tires, ball bearings, and turnbuckles. Is there any durablity issue that we are missing? We are not sure about what battery yet. As you are the Offical Region 5 Champion for a class that doesn't exsist your input would be well appreciated.

Brian Anthony

Glenn, the reasoning for the fixed timing, spec motors is that in the past, there have been racers that have "modified" their motors. The Spec motor makes it easier to do a stop check to make sure that they are compliant. Also, this is not a ROAR class and there are no rules for it. I am once again trying to make racing equal, and fun.

As for the 4C 19T class, I am following the rules put in place by both NORRCA and ARCOR. These seem to be the most accepted rules.

I know this isn't a ROAR track, but that seems to be the rule book most sanctioning bodies go by, and for a good reason. FYI the current ROAR rule is:

5-31: All ROAR rebuildable stock motors must be bushing-type with an endbell that locks the timing at 24 degrees. The space between the magnets must be centered on one set of mounting holes, which will be marked on one side of the can to indicate zero degrees. The brush hoods will be aligned at 90 degrees from this mark, plus the allowed timing. The commutator slots must be aligned with the center of the individual poles. A two-degree tolerance will be allowed on the commutator, but not on the overall timing. Endbell must include a mark indicating 24-degree timing adjustment when motor is assembled. Only two, single piece ceramic magnets are allowed.

With that in mind, what is the purpose of running a stock class with an illigal motor? If you want to, make a clase called "run what you brung" for testing purposes. You may have a stock or MOD motor or test your driving skill against slower or faster drivers. enforce the rule that if you are a faster car/truck, the nose of your car/truck should not touch the vehicle in front of you. Should that happen, then a 1 lap penalty should be imposed. If the official thinks the lead car was at fault, the 1 lap penalty should go to both cars/trucks. Just my .02 worth. Thanks for listining/reading... :thumbsup:

For what it's worth... If ROAR changes it's 19 turn rules to allow either stand up, laydown, or even P-94 size brushes... I sure hope that Hobby Hub Speedway will allow these motors to run in it's 19 turn classes... Perticularly the pan car class, but I'd also personaly like to see ROAR rules in use in Truck class 19 turn as well... (after all I do have a Truck I intend to run before 2004 season is over...)


Stock... much the same... go by ROAR rules, and right now that means no EPIC 'outlaw'.... On the other hand... if a guy comes in and runs a Outlaw... slap him on the wrist and ask him how it ran... unless it's a trophey race... then do what ever you want to do with him/her... would death be to harsh? :)

Reedy Quad... big comm laydown brushes... I agree with Kevin M... electricaly it's almost identical to a standard comm stand up brush motor... However here is something to think about... If a motor manufacturer built a motor with a .250" comm that could be cut down to .230" a stand up brush whould have just as much over lap as a Laydown does on a standard size comm... To my knowlege... there are no current rules that govern the size of the commutator and/or it's relationship to the brush width... To some degreee, brush width is a arbitrary value that is only meaningfull if you look at it in relation to comm size... I'm not sure rules bodys should be getting into this fine of a detail about motor construction, perticularly in a Modified class... even if it's 'limited' like 19 turn modified currently is.

Glenn, once ROAR has set their 19T rules, we will at that time adapt them.

Brian, we'll open up around 3pm.

FYI- I just got off the phone with Trinity and they said the closest motor the the 19T handout for Snowbirds is the Arcornite, and for stock, the Monster stock would be closest.

I tried to get some of the handouts to play with, but they won't be available until Snowbirds.

In a email I got from our region director Kenny, As of now the new rules sound a little fuzzy and they are still working them out. However this is what he thinks is going to happen---


"I will track down the final version, But I am sure it will be standup brushes (laydowns legal in 2005), quad/binary motors can, full stack arms, mabuchi wrap."

And 19 turns of 19 gauge wire. As far as timing goes I emailed him back and hope to have all of the rules for the track on friday!!!

Walter

Thanks for the heads up Walter...

Well I guess I won't be able to run my 15T anymore.... :(

Well I guess I won't be able to run my 15T anymore.... :(

Well Jake it didn't look like a 15 turn to me-- More like a 35 turn,LOL



Walter

Walt-
you coming down tomorrow?????????

I WILL be there this friday assuming all goes well. I won't get there till right at 7 though. So sign me up on freq 5. See you all there

Jake - Here's the TurboDyno numbers 4.8V @ 30A

Arcor = 16179 RPM, 8.6 Torque
Quad-mag = 15541 RPM, 9.0 torque

Laws of Physics: RPM x Torque = power
So less RPM means more torque for any given Watt value.

Ok, here are to the best of our knowledge the expected 04 roar 19 turn rules---

19 turn of 19 gauge wire
full arm stack
mabutchi wound (sp)
36* max timing
stand up brushes (laydowns legal in 05)
2 or 4 magnets

Walter :thumbsup:

Glenn, once ROAR has set their 19T rules, we will at that time adapt them.

Brian, we'll open up around 3pm.

I'll be waiting in the parking lot.

Mr. Marcy,

Here in Fort Wayne we are starting a Legends class and it is taking off like hot cakes. Right now it is monster stock motor, 81t spur, any steel pinion so you don't need to always have new tires, ball bearings, and turnbuckles. Is there any durablity issue that we are missing? We are not sure about what battery yet. As you are the Offical Region 5 Champion for a class that doesn't exsist your input would be well appreciated.

Brian Anthony

Uh, you're already doing 3 illegal things, so what more do you want? :D
Stick with the 4-cell Street Spec battery, it's all you need and they're cheap. We use the Street Spec motor, so you don't have to worry about Trinity's semi-annual new stock motor, plus they get better gas mileage and are more consistant. The Legends front bumper tends to be breakable. We used to change it to the Bolink "Super-T" bumper (#BL5241), but I don't know if you can get them anymore. Shoo-Goo a scrap piece of lexan to the body around the rear body post holes and put lots of Shoo-Goo around the rear fender/running board corner. And remember George's favorite saying:

"Racing Legends means never having to say you're sorry."

Ok, here are to the best of our knowledge the expected 04 roar 19 turn rules---

19 turn of 19 gauge wire
full arm stack
mabutchi wound (sp)
36* max timing
stand up brushes (laydowns legal in 05)
2 or 4 magnets

Walter :thumbsup:

Walt or Kevin,

What is a mabutchi wind? Are there different types? How can you tell one type from another?

Thanks,

VB

Balblazer,

My understanding is that there are basicly two types of winds a Hemi and a Mabuchi wrap. The Hemi essentialy has about 1/2 less of a turn or wrap ten does the Mabuchi. I really don't know exactly how to tell you the differance, it has to do with the way take the wire from one armature segment to the next after you've completed winding a segment.

C1, C2, and Reedy 'spec' 19 turn motors all use a 'hemi' wind if I'm not mistaken.

ARCOR 19 turn motors have to use the Mabuchi wrap to be legal.

Walter can correct me if I'm wrong... or anyone else for that matter...

Ok I will try and tell you how to see the diffence---I am using Reedy arms for comparsion, others might be a little different

Hemi--as the wire is wound counter clockwise, when each pole is complete, the wire goes strait up to the tab on the right side of that pole. the wire goes thru the tab and strait down to start the next pole. so each pole is about 1/4 turn short of the full # of turns(A 10 turn is really a 9 & 3/4 turn)

mabuchi-- sorry I don't have one right here, so I am doing it from memory-- they are wound clockwise- to finish a pole the wire comes up the left side across the top of that pole and to the tab to the right of that pole,then to the next pole and down its right side to wind that pole. So basicly the wire cross it self to insure a true number of turns(a 10 turn is just that a 10 turn).


I hope that helps, Walter

After looking at a couple of motors from the other brand (can't use the "T" word while Walter is listening :D ), it seems that the direction it's wound (CW or CCW) could be either way, depending on the brand, style, phase of the moon, and how drunk the winding machine operator got last night. Basically, the Mabuchi wind means the ends of the windings from any given pole cross each other when going to the comm. In a "Hemi" wind (Epic's term for it), they don't cross, so the wire is maybe 3/4" shorter.

I beleive both Kevin and Walter are correct... that is that you can wind the motor in either direction, and my experiance is that I have had arms wound it in the oposit direction... This will effect the way the motor turns too... This can really screw you up when/if you take a arm from one can, and put it in another, then wire it without checking to see which way it's spinning... Now, maybe Reedy is more consistant... but I would think if you purchased a Reedy based motor that was wound by a third party, it could still be wound in either direction, depending on who did the winding...

but I would think if you purchased a Reedy based motor that was wound by a third party, it could still be wound in either direction, depending on who did the winding...
Very true, BUT everything Walt has is genuine Reedy and not third party.

Walter,
What are most of your arms? Hemi or Mabuchi? Would a 10 turn Mabuchi be faster/more powerful than a Hemi wound 10? Just curious.

Yeah, well not all of us can be Walter.