Thanks...so what's a good rollout to start with for stock 4 cell? I'll probably start with the MVP? What's a good stock motor now a days?

Blake

Blake - you can stay with the MVP and run in the 42mm range. If you take some of the input from Big Jim about these motors, elsewhere on this bulletin board, and shave the leading and trailing edge of the brush, you can move it up to 44mm. Good luck!:thumbsup:

Woohoo! My used Rev2 is here today. Now I just have to get it cleaned up and reset. What springs should I use for the thing all around? Also, where can I get a copy of the manual for this thing. I e-mailed Speedmerchant but they are taking a while to get back.

Thanks,
Blake

Blake,

There is not really a manual for this, per se. Written above should be all you need. The manual just explains how to build the sidelinks.
Go with 0.020 front springs up front, orange tweak and a Wolfe black or Associated Copper spring with 80 wt. oil in shock. DIALED!!! The rest is up to you!!!

One other tip, dont go crazy cutting the tires way down, the car is fine on a little bigger tire (front and rear). Just make sure car is level front to rear. Worry about ride height later. Trust me on that one.

Ray

BTW-I am already ordering tires for next fall!!! How serious is that!!!

I am doing the tire thing, too. By the way, JACO is coming out with a double pink front foam for 1/12. It is between pink and purple in hardness.

Blake - I am trying to answer your question about the speedo. My reply gets kicked back. Did you send the correct address?

Any suggestions on helping with runtime in mod? Motor tuning tricks etc. I've been using my mods from my TC but didn't know if you guys were using lighter springs etc.

:devil: Okay, reformatted hard drive and some headaches, and I'm up and running again.

davidl: Now that I'm redirecting my efforts as far as set-up is concerned I do need more practice. Things will, hopefully, be much better this season.:devil:

CMW - I am hoping to be at Cincy this Sat to practice. If not then, then maybe Mon.

DL: Schedule's really tight on Saturday, but Monday's not out of the question. Let me Know if you'll be there Monday and I'll try to come down and hang out.
:devil:

Monday is out. Ultra is closed.

Do we run too much Dual Rate in RC cars?? Do we mask set-up problems with excessive dual rate?? It is widely accepted that there is an optimum slip angle in race cars. Usually determined by factors like rear engine, front engine, rear or front wheel drive. But on Rc cars its a factor of driver preference and set-up (i.e loose, push). But is there an optimum amount of steering angle to achieve to, and thus realizing the fastest set-up??? I wonder if you were to only have the front wheels on the 12th scale cars only turn 6 to 7 degrees off center if the set-up would:

1). Work at all?

2). Be wildly different than what we run now and...

3). Be faster????

This is my feeble single brain cell working overtime!!!!

Ray: I've often thought about that one myself. I've always been of the mind that the less you turn the front wheels, the less the car scrubs, therefore the more speed you carry through the corner. The problem, as you suggest, is balance with overall set-up. It's hard to determine what the perfect slip angle would be on these little cars. I can tell you from watching the fastest guys out there that they drive with less steering input than we do. I've had the chance to watch Mike Lufaso quite a bit over the years, and it seems that he turns the wheel an incredibly small amount compared to mere mortals.

Before the season starts this year I intend to try alot of things I've never tried before. One such experiment will be a set-up with tremendous overall grip and as little steering throw as I can get away with. I want to see if increasing overall grip, while reducing the necessary steering travel will allow the car to be driven deeper without killing corner speed. Theoretically it should. I'm thinking that pushing the car harder into the corner, scrubbing less off with the front-end, and being able to get back on the throttle earlier, will enevitably make the car faster, and easier on the batteries.

Just a thought I had after watching Mockerman and Adams cars at Indy in March. Mark's car almost looked as if it accellerated before the Apex, then whipped itself outta the corner like a slingshot. I REALLY WANT MY CAR TO DO THAT!!! :devil:

You know-when I was trying out Mod 12th scale at Toledo last winter, I once came up with a super steering set-up for car. I was tooo stupid to know to turn DR way down and Lift real early for the hairpin after long front stright, but as I remember it, the car was super fast when driven right!!! I guess pride kept me from lifting early. When I did not lift early I traction rolled 15'!!!! I ran standard rear set-up, but ran 0.018 front springs and Magenta front tires doped 5/8th.

When I told Desrosiers about it he was amazed car was even drivable set-up like that :D

That's similar to what I'm gonna try up front, but in Indy I learned something that I'm still struggling to understand about the rear-end set-up. I went to Orange springs and slightly softened the dampening, which gave the car more turn-in. I understand that I increased initial weight transfer with this set-up, but I still don't understand why I got SOOO much more intial snap into the corner. I guess I spent too much time trying to take weight transfer out in an effort to maximize mid-corner speed, I didn't think about letting the car snap the weight back and forth quickly. Now if I'd have just figured that out before the last round, and tuned my front-end to match the new rear-end set-up I'd have done a whole lot better than I did.

We'll see what I learn late this summer. I wanna a car I can drive all the way into the corner and just power out, like Mark Adams' car.

I put MArks set-up on my car at the Champs last year and that is the only time I was scared to drive an RC car!!!:p It had so much steering!!! If you can drive his set-up, then for sure you'll be a lot faster, but its so hard to drive it. Its so twitchy and turns in so hard!!!

:devil: That's how I used to set my stuff up, 'till Pulfer convinced me I was killing corner speed by having the car set-up that way. But that was a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago. It was back in the days when we raced on tracks that were difficult to drive, i.e. pre-Touring Car. Does anybody else remember tracks that only had one sweeping turn, one straight, and a whole bunch of tight, intricate corners? I really miss the good old days. Now it seems like every track is a series of straights separated by fast mid-throttle corners and the occasional 180. So super aggressive steering allows you to rip right up to the corner, pivot around it, and peel off.Before TC's I'd never driven on a track that made me want to put a ton of caster in the front-end and just throw the car into every single corner. Now it seems like low speed steering is unnecessary on a 12th scale car, because we never have to slow down all that much.

Here's what I'm gonna start out with next time I test with a stock motor.

Front-end: .20 springs, magenta fronts, 4 degrees of caster, maximum ackerman

Rear-end: Blue side springs, black center shock spring, 80 wt. oil in shock, light hydra fluid in tubes, Grey rear tires, batteries forward

I think it should have good rear bite and boatloads of steering at high speeds. I'll use the amount traction compound applied to gain low-speed steering.

Any thoughts?

Sure - put the batteries in the rear and use medium weight fluid in the damper tubes. You don't need a car as fast transitioning as you described.

Batts in the back and medium fluid in tubes, but everything else sounds okay? :devil:

YES

I ran all that last weekend at Ultra except I like 2 deg caster. I went down to visit JR. and we played for about 5 packs together. When geared & driven correctly, this setup was excellent. My take on your setup is that you are using 4 deg caster to tone down the agressiveness of the car on corner entry. You can do the same thing by using the medium damper fluid. Batts in the back provide a balance of rear traction and front bite that will not bind up so bad when turning 180's. If there were chicanes that made up the most important part of the track, batts forward would be a consideration. I only had 45% DR in my transmitter. Don't forget to turn that 3.5 to 4 foot circle to balance turning rate for each side. When I went to 50%, the car bound up and was slow.

David,

I will be running at Ultra soon (maybe the 16th)and I may bring my 12th scale and try what you and Ian are talking about. I know its the way to go if I want to be a lot faster!!!

I am wondering on the GMV12, can I run a receiver pack with that??

Ray

Ray - I think you can run a x-ceiver pack with it but I never tried it. I recommend that you only use the power switch on the pack to power the system through the x-ceiver if you decide to try it. I don't think you will hurt it by trying, just don't turn on both switches at the same time.

David

David, Yeah-receievr pack is for my Mod car only!!! I ran one last year and I honestly think it makes my 94145 servo feel stronger!!! As if it gives it greater holding power. On my new Rev. 3 I am getting I am putting a Futaba 9602 in. I hope it feels alot like my Aitronics, only stronger.

I'm sorry I couldn't make it down to run with you this past weekend.
I'll move the batts back and try 2 deg. first. What front tires were you running? All of my purple fronts are extremely hard. :devil:

What do you mean by "extremely hard"? I ran TRC purple fronts in Cleveland last Nov. They measured 40. I also had some JACO purples at that race. They were 45. I have seen some JACO purples as high as 50 and as low as 35. TRC magenta is softer than the TRC purple, but seems to be a different rubber that hooks up differently than purple. I don't know how to explain it, just it seems different.

davidl: My Jacos are in the high 40's, 46' and 48's.
I guess the Magentas have less natural rubber and more synthetic. I've been told the magentas heat up less than the purples, and therefore are less prone to "glazing". :devil:

Does anyone have an idea of a compound that CMW can put on his tires to reduce the hardness?

David,

I know someone put his 40++ shore Ellegi's in a bag with paragon on them and after a week they were as soft as a 25. Maybe something along those lines?? Or maybe a good dose of WD-40 over night then let air dry for a day?? I guess you'd need a Durometer to do it right though!!!

Ray

Jake and I will be concentrating on Nitro until after the Nat's. We are looking forward to getting the 12th scale out and running on the rug. Hope to see you guys at Ultra in July.

I've been doing a few test tires in a mixture of Tire Tweak 2000 and Paragon. It seems to have softened them up considerably. I'll try and get some durometer readings this weekend while I'm at Joyce Park. I'm just wondering if it'll help all that much. I think it may be more of a rubber compound issue, rather than a shore issue. I have one more thing I'm thinking of trying, and after I get a little data I'll share the results. :devil:

Ian, send me a test email to leeda@tqci.net It is urgent!

DL: You have mail!:devil:

Looking to get a new 12th scale.....

The ultimate question for 100th time is, which one....
And yes, I've read the thread from start to finish.... :D

I have looked at:
12L3
Carpet Knife
Rev. 3
Trinity

They all look good, but:
Which one is the easiest to get parts for?
Which one is the most bullet proof?
Which one is the easiest to work on?
Easiest to set-up?
Cost in upkeeep?

The 12L3 is the kinda on top right now, due to parts...

I have a very limited on-road LHS.....

Any help would be great....

Tres: All current 1/12th cars are very durable. I'd only rule out the Trinity car because of parts availability. Their front-end is more fragile than most, and you can't always get parts for them readily here in region 5.

I'd go with a Rev. 3, and here's a rundown of why:

The only thing that EVER breaks on the car is the occasional front arm, and those are Associated pieces which are available wherever there's a track.

The car is by far the most adjustable out there. With the speed-tune rear suspension you have complete control over roll-center, spring rate, and dampening. Plus on the Rev. 3 the side to side and fore and aft dampening and spring rates are independently controllable. On the 12l the "hockey pucks" on the pod plates are working in all directions of pod travel, and the T-bar is really the overiding factor in actual roll stiffness, and bump absorption. The Rev. 3 on the other hand, let's you control roll stiffness with the dampener tubes and side springs, while the shock actually handles the fore and aft travel. They can be adjusted independently, without one having any effect on the other. A t-bar car is limited to the two or three t-bars available, and changes to shock oil and dampener lubes don't have nearly as much effect on handling with those cars.

One of the coolest features is that the batt. position is adjustable on the Rev. 3 as well. This is an invaluable aid in tuning the car to specific track conditions. Trinity's car has adj. batt. position now, but the Rev. 3 was first with that feature. Oh, you don't have to tape 'em in either.

As far as maintenence is concerned, they're all pretty much the same, diff rebuilds, center shock rebuilds, and dampener tube / hockey puck rebuilds, along with making sure everything is free and smooth. That goes for any R/C car. I personally feel that T-bar cars are a bit trickier to maintain because of the T-bar. Having run 12l's for a long time, I discovered that you could damage a t-bar and really not know it. Everything was still free and smooth in all directions, but no matter what I'd do the car would still feel tweaked on the track. What would happen is the fibers in t-bar would be overly stressed in one area. They wouldn't be stressed to the point where there were visible signs, but it would still flex more in that area, which made the car feel tweaked. This doesn't happen on the Rev. 3 because everything's controlled by coil springs.

All in all, I think it's the best package out there. If you have any questions feel free to e-mail me, or post 'em here. If you post 'em here you'll get my input along with input from 2002 ROAR 1/12th Masters National Champion David Lee. We'll try to answer whatever questions you have.

Ian Ruggles
Team SpeedMerchant

CypressMidWest: thanks for the response......


I have almost ruled out the Trinity car due to the parts issue...
Good looking car though....

Top 2 right now, it's kinda be between the Rev.3 and Knife....

Is the front end on the Rev.3 the same as the old AE one?

Ian,

How often do you replace the side springs on the Rev 3? Also, just out of curiosity, how often do you replace your front springs?

Thanks!
-Rich

tres: Yes, the "Old Skool" front-end comes with the car. We run it for three reasons, first it's nearly impossible to build wrong. They almost always go together easily and operate freely. Secondly, it's way more durable/consistent. A bump of the board can send an AE dynamic strut front-end outta whack relatively easily, or worse yet break the lower arm. The "Old Skool" front-end doesn't change unless you break it. Thirdly, the Rev. 3 can be set up to have a ton of steering without the need for reactive caster. In mod the reactive can be beneficial, as Ray Huang and I have alluded to in our earlier posts, but with the natural drag brake effect stock motors create it's not at all necessary. Oh, I guess there's a fourth reason. The "Old Skool" front end weighs next to nothing! Also, where will you be racing?

rchang: I change side springs when the car becomes more difficult to tweak. If I really have to bear down on one side to get the car flat, I change them. What you can do to reduce the number of times you replace them is rotate them every other race day. That way if you run on a track that has alot of sweepers you equalize the amount of stress on each spring. Just like rotating your tires! I only change front springs when they start to compress, at that point I just pitch 'em and toss in a fresh set. If I remember right, at Ultra, it's about every fourth club race for a set of .20's. On a big track with lots of high speed corners, they won't last quite as long.:devil:

CypressMidWest: We have a small carpet track outside Evansville, IN.....
TC, Oval, SPEC and some truck classes...

I would love to come over and run some on-road in OH.....
I'm about an hour west of Louisville.
I've ran at CRCRC a few times...NATs, Winter Races...

I mainly run off-road...Action Hobbies/Rectors R/C in Albion, IL...

Thanks, Ian.

Some folks have been prodding me to switch from running the 12L3 and start running the Speedmerchant. So, I'm trying to figure out the maintenance of the Speedmerchant. :)

-Rich

Tres: Come on out to Ultra this fall. We'll get ya dialled in. Nothing like racing with a couple Nat. Champs and a former World Champ, every weekend! The track is wicked and Ed's got a really nice shop too.

Rich: make the switch, you won't be disappointed. The car can be adjusted to suit you, rather than you adjusting to suit the car. I already saw Ray's post that he'd get you one if you'll build his motors at the Champs next year. He posted it on Hobbytalk, so it's law!!!! :devil:

Ian, Shush!!!!:lol:

So Ray is selling his REV3. HE IS OFF The TEAM!

How can I get an answer from Speedmerchant? I've sent in 3 messages now and can't get anything from them? I'm 2 inches from selling this thing and going to CRC.

Blake

bstorey - what is your question? If you need parts, maybe I can help.

Bstorey, I can also help with some parts-what do you need?

David-I am benching my Prototypes and running PURE Rev.3's this season!!!

Here's what I'm looking for:

Dress kit? - What's included in this. I'd like to replace the silver battery hold downs with blue (I know it's sort of stupid but what the hey...I've got extra $$ from painting so many bodies).

I needed the tweak spring carrier but I got that from CRC through my shop.

Really, I just can't stand their site. Compared with CRC it stinks. There's no information on it. If anyone has any contacts over there forward them to me. I'd love to make it a better more informative site.

Blake

Blake,

The dress kit has your choice of blue or purple battery posts and rear body work standoffs. Maybe the side links as well, but I am checking on that for you. I'll edit message when I get more info.

To be honest, Bruce sells all his parts through www.hobbyetc.com anyways. He also knows that us Rev.3 owners are all out here to answer questions-so I wouldnt get too down on him!!!

BTW-I am running at Ultra on the 22nd I think. If you have a Touring car-bring it down!!! Heck I might even be able to find a Rev. 3 of someone else to run 12th scale if you want to run it with someone else there!!!

I am selling my last Rev.3 right now so I dont have any 12th scale cars to run. I wont be getting my new ones till at least August.

Ray

Blake,

The Dress Up Kit comes with the rear body mount stand offs, battery posts, and side links if I remember correctly.


Brian

Thanks for the help all. I might try to make it down to Ultra for that ray.

I'm not getting down on Bruce at all, I'm just trying to point out that some people like to get a certain level of customer service from a website. Speedmerchant's site doesn't accomplish that to the degree the comptitors do. Might be something to bring up with him. I'd love to help out with it, it would be nice to build something that I actually gave a sh** about.

I've seen the parts on HobbyEtc but there are hardly any descriptions or pictures. I saw the dress kit there but there's no way to select a color or info on what color they are sending. It's just a really bad e-commerce site.

Blake

I'm not getting down on Bruce at all, I'm just trying to point out that some people like to get a certain level of customer service from a website. Speedmerchant's site doesn't accomplish that to the degree the comptitors do. Might be something to bring up with him. I'd love to help out with it, it would be nice to build something that I actually gave a sh** about.

hahaha!!! Blake-are you saying your day to day work routine is... should I say a bit boring!!!! :lol:
Try Generator sales!!!!


I think a couple other OH/MI people are goiong to give it a try, so the numbers are growing!!!

Also-the Rev.3 is very light, so you might want to get the front arm stiffeners and maybe build a little foam bumper. It wont hurt you at all on ROAR min. weight!!! When I ran my Receiver pack-my car was about perfect on weight!!!