View Full Version : Advice for 12th scale on road racing.
03-31-2002, 12:11 AM
david, I ran silicone tires one time on a sugar water treated smooth concret flat oval with a buddy of mine. Our lap times with our Electric Touring cars (set-up for carpet no less) were faster than all of the Nitro cars-including the 1/8th Deltas and Nitro touring cars!!! We had never run the track before and had a blast!!!!
03-31-2002, 12:16 AM
David-also congratulations on being the 2002 Roar On-Road Carpet Nnational Champion!!! I bet that feels good!!! How did that rev. 3 treat you??? I keep telling people to get them, but they all seem to want 12L3's?????
03-31-2002, 01:27 AM
Well our local Winter Racin Season ended tonight.
After all the advice I have gotten from all I placed 2nd in the points.
Man 12th scale is such fun. Not sure when racing will rezoom. May have to travel for some good 12th scale racing.
Thanks again to all.
03-31-2002, 10:20 AM
Ray - Thank you for the kind words. First of all I want to publicly express my appreciation to the guys at Parma, and especially Paul. He painted a new Speed 8 that I used in this race. I usually have a generic blue and white paint scheme, but Paul added a touch that was genious. I have been taking hits from my competitors for my paint jobs and this shut them up. People from all around were commenting about how cool it was. Naturally, it is now retired to the museum.
Now the REV3. I had the best car, bar none. It would roll forever. There were a couple of bumps in bad places on right hand turns and after carefull judgement of what to do, I evidently had the right combination to cover them. The REV3 is one of the few cars that provides the adjustability to do that. There are more side spring combinations available than T-Bars. There are more center spring/shock combinations available than on other cars. The front suspension looks simple, but has more adjustments than you might realise. I agree with you that the REV3 is one of the biggest secrets in carpet on-road racing. Chris Tossilini (sp) put his REV3 in 4th or 5th in modified and only started driving it the Friday morning of the event.
But my REV3 never bound up in the turns. It was incredibly efficient, making up for my lack in motor. I was able to run qualifying times that would have put me in 6th on the grid of the stock A-main. I have run a lot of cars in the past from Corally to 12L and I never moved on my competition until I got the Speedmerchant. Ray, does that cover it?
04-08-2002, 12:27 PM
I found some rubber tires on Ebay. These are older Tamiya 1/12 scale racing tyres (their spelling... ;-) They state "Martini Porsche 935 Turbo Racing Tyre" on them. It doesn't look like they have any kind of foam inserts so they may be more for static display. Does anyone have any info on these?
I will take your advice on the foams. However, the track here in San Antonio is not very smooth. I think most folks have better success with rubber tires down here. I was watching a RC10L run on foams and it seemed to run well but it did bottom out some in a few areas which is why the track isn't so ideal for foams. They do coat it with sugar water but there are some peaks and valleys that make it hard on lower chassis vehicles.
04-11-2002, 05:20 PM
I'm the guy in Indy you helped out the night before the USTC race. I noticed then you were running MVP's in stock. Do you cut the brushes "Big Jim Style" for 1/12th, or leave them as is for more RPM?
04-13-2002, 10:43 AM
Hi Brian. I am trying to remember, but I helped a couple of people that weekend. I had a bad weekend that time so I have been trying to forget it. The weekend I had at the ROAR Nationals has helped a lot.
Now on to the MVP. I have been fiddling with it a lot and have not come to any conclusions. I have run the motor in touring car with the Quasar brush and the cuts Big Jim endorses. It was pretty good, but still a little behind the others that ran GM3. There is another part to the equation here in that I had a belt driven car and the others ran the TC3. Also, my batteries were 2400 of medium performance and the others were using the new UMH3000's. I ran that same motor in my F1 car the other night with killer 2000 cells and it was wicked fast. I am struggling with it in the 4 cell car, 1/12 scale. It has been fast at times, and some of the inconsistency is related to each individual motor. I am moving to a 767 on the positive and a 766 on the negative. I ran that in a Reedy 19t spec motor last weekend and won. It was a 1/10 scale pan type race with 4 cells. The brushes were full width, but it was a differnt design armature and a different can. Next is to work with the springs and the width of the brush. Narrowing the brush definitely cools off the motor. I think that is good. I am trying to juggle 3 variables right now and that is complicated. Those variables are brush width, spring pressure and gear ratio.
Good luck with your efforts.
04-18-2002, 12:56 PM
Haven't seen anyone post here in a while. Does anyone know anything about the old Tamiya 1/12 scale rubber tyres?
04-19-2002, 03:18 PM
Ray, I am new to the board, and was reading this thread and you mentioned that you sometimes sell your used tires? I am on the West Coast and 1/12 is as dead out here as I think it could get! I can't even find a new set of tires in any Hobby stores anymore. I used to race organized club racing on asphalt, but that class has long since gone the way of the dodo bird. Can you help me out by selling your old tires? My friends and I run on some semi-rough asphalt, so I would need some meat left on the wheel for ground clearance. I have a SB12 and a broken Revolver 12(anyone have a revolver chassis and lower rear pod brace for sale, I would appreciate it) and my friends run 12L's. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
04-19-2002, 03:27 PM
Thsnowman, I sent you an e-mail. Let me talk with friends and see what we all have!!! We are all running low as I sold almost everything my friends owned a month ago!!!Ray
04-19-2002, 03:32 PM
Dang, I've got a whole bag of used 1/12th fronts and rears. The fronts are purples and the rears are greys.
What size do you need? Most of the fronts are at 1.70" and the rears are between 1.67" - 1.77".
04-20-2002, 10:31 PM
Thanks for the replies Rich and Ray, I need all the help I can get out here. I never have checked the ride height, but 1/8th seems low. As all 1/12 scale parts are very hard to come by, I want to save the chassis as much as possible. Maybe 1/8 RH is good, I just never checked. I found out today that the club I used to race at still run every 2nd and 4th Sundays, so I am so stoked!!!!! Their 1/12 contingent is nowhere to be seen, but with my 2 friends (and maybe my Dad) that makes 4 and the organizer said he would make a class for it as some seem to bring 1/12 up every so often, they probably have 1/12 collecting dust. Like I said previously, I would like to find a revolver chassis and lower rear pod, as well as used T-bars, as new ones are about impossible to find. In addition, if you guys have any older 1400-1700 6 cell packs that have lost their "edge" BC-112C I would like to maybe pick up 4-5 packs. I have an older Tekin that won't support Ni-Mh packs so, I want to stick with the older batteries if possible, as I do have 4 very, very good packs with good #'s. Thanks for the time guys, great to see 1/12 is still pretty strong elsewhere in the country, as it was my only real love of this sport. God Bless.
04-30-2002, 03:44 AM
:devil: Congratulations and Amen to my Teammate David Lee! NATIONAL CHAMP! I guess from your results you weren't in charge of chaperoning(sp?) TJ all weekend LOL. Great Job David. :devil:
04-30-2002, 08:26 AM
This sounds like Ian. Well, we had TJ under tow pretty good. And they (Cypress & Speedmerchant) actually pushed a little touch with youth into this old, warn body. TJ actually did me a good favor. Esposito had been trying all week to find out the gear I was using. He even chased me to the hobby shop and picked up the package with a pinion I was buying. Turns out that I never used that pinion. Then he asked TJ and the answer was higher than the one I used. Tom would pull me down the straight about 3 or four cars, but when we got the infield, game over. Great weekend and I lost the bet with Bruce over the TQ. I was able to handle the tequilla double on Saturday night.
Don't forget to lub your tubes (you know what I mean).
04-30-2002, 06:58 PM
I figured that you'd be able to reveal my secret identity. TJ's a pretty good guy, and stickin' to Espo on the roll out is pretty funny! I'm glad you guys did so well. I know Indy was a bit trying on the nerves for alot of us. :devil:
05-07-2002, 02:10 PM
What are the favorite bodies in use on 1/12 scale on-road cars. I have been using the Speed8 from Parma. Anybody else?
05-07-2002, 02:17 PM
Of course if anyone says Trinity SPeed 9 :mad: , its actually just a Parma SPeed 8 with a splitter in front of the wing!!! Why mess with perfection!!!
05-07-2002, 04:56 PM
That is the body that came from Andy's, which Trinity purchased?
05-07-2002, 05:06 PM
Trinity calls it "his art", I call it his rip-off!!!! But thats just my 0.02!!!
05-08-2002, 01:19 AM
ray hit the nail on the head! It's almost identical. It looks as if Andy added a couple of stiffening ribs and called it the Speed9.:devil:
05-09-2002, 10:00 AM
Some 1/12 scale onroad cars use the original Associated front suspension that has the king pin slide up and down without any camber gain. The spring is a coil over the king pin type of arrangement. The question is: "Does any other suspension design have superior performance or tuning capabilities over this suspension?" "Which would be better suited for smooth racing surfaces?" "Which would be better suited for rough or bumpy racing surfaces?"
05-09-2002, 12:44 PM
I prefer a little reactive caster to be honest. I tested it at Toledos track at the end of the year. That was in Mod though. We were running 9 -turns on a 80x40 track. It was insane speed, but fun. When I put a little re-active in my prototype Rev.3 it made it easier for me to drive. I was able to keep the mid-corner grip I like (I need a lot of steering and grip at apex to exit) and it added a little turn in. I kept caster and camber the same after adding in some re-active so it would be a fair test.
05-10-2002, 04:49 AM
Ray: If you were running the AE Dynamic front-end, it has quite a bit of camber gain as well. In mod I imagine that reactive is advantageous. After all, you no longer have the natural drag-brake effect of the Stock Motor, and you are flying into the corners quite a bit faster. :devil:
05-10-2002, 10:12 AM
CMW - there is a way to tune your stock motor to free wheel in the corners just like the modified.
05-10-2002, 10:17 AM
Tell tell! :)
05-10-2002, 10:25 AM
I knew that someone would jump on this and it only took you 5, I say, 5 MINUTES to do so. I want to know if you monitor this thing 24/7 to pick up the latest info/trash/etc?
Here goes. The brush overlap influences breaking of these motors. So, if you want the car to roll more after releasing the throttle to neutral, shave the width of the brush. The more you shave from the brush, the more the car will roll. Spring tension has much less impact on this that brush overlap. The tradeoff is that when you reduce the width of the brush, the characteristics of the motor change and you may loose the power band you need.
Some drivers don't care about the overlap. They dial forward throttle into the neutral position of their trigger and use power to the motor to create roll. I don't like this method because it drains the battery and impacts run time or the voltage you have left at the end of the race to go fast.
05-10-2002, 10:40 AM
Heh, yeah, I monitor this for every tidbit of info I can get. ;) Ray will confirm that. haha!
Anyways, I'm one of those folks that use throttle trim on the radio to get roll. And, now that I think about it, that could be why I don't have much run-time left in the batteries after my run.
I'll give your brush method a try and see how it goes!
05-10-2002, 11:13 AM
Talking about confirming things-Rich IS ALL over this Forum!!! But Rich will confirm for me I suck as a driver, BUT I do think all the different style front ends on 12th scale cars are equally good on bumps, etc. I am 90% sure handling bumpy tracks is ~30% in the front spring chosen and the other 70% is in the rear pod set-up. Soften the Rev.3's center shock and lighten oil and the car just rolls over bumps.
Cypress-E-mail me if you want a pic of my proto-Rev.3. It looks pretty cool!!! I'd love to run it next year, but then Bruce wouldnt be able to help me with set-ups at Champs, etc. So I am torn as to what to do!!! :confused:
I used to dial in roll on radio permanently, now I have noticed its kind of a per track layout thing so sometimes I have it, sometimes I dont!!! Usually if I miss every apex, I dial out the roll.
05-10-2002, 12:52 PM
Ray - using throttle trim that way is a good approach. By the way, I would like to see the picture of your prototype.
Email - email@example.com
05-10-2002, 12:55 PM
Hah. Replied in a minute. :-P
Hey Ray, is that the car I saw at Toledo with the Trinity front end?
You guys are making me want to get a speed merchant. Too bad I have too much money into the 12L3.
05-10-2002, 12:58 PM
Rich-thats the one!!! It was fun building it as Audrey was only a few weeks old at the time I think.
rev3 rev3 rev3 rev3.... You want it!!!!
05-10-2002, 05:57 PM
Ray, how about sending me a pic also.
05-10-2002, 07:03 PM
If I got one for free I'd switch. But, I know that won't happen. So, I'm stuck with the 12L3! :)
Originally posted by rayhuang
rev3 rev3 rev3 rev3.... You want it!!!!
05-10-2002, 08:19 PM
I'll buy you one if you'll build all my motors at the Champs this year!! hahahaha!!! As we are the Zubak motor guru's there!!! :lol:
Runninfree, I'll send a pic on Monday. All photos are in my work PC!!!
05-11-2002, 05:52 PM
I'd love to see pics of the prototype too.
05-13-2002, 04:09 PM
I'm going to make the jump to 1/12th scale for good now. Except for the Helicopter and Micro RS4 of course...
What's a good setup (indoor Ozite) to start with for the Speedmerchant Rev2?
What are some good tuning parts to have in the pit box (springs, oils, etc.)?
Any good links for setting these cars up?
Is there an online manual anywhere?
What parts are needed to upgrade it to the REV3?
05-13-2002, 04:25 PM
Start here and tune in or out steering as you see fit!!!
First and very important, make sure side links are set evenly. You do this by feel and by eyeballing it. Make sure gap from rear pod to chassis is even side to side. Now, with all springs and shocks and dampner tubes removed, rotate pod in a side to side rocking motion. Its should feel super smooth with no binding. DO all adjustmenst from one link!!! If it binds at top or bottom of rocking motion ans wont return to center, the link is too short. Lengthen it a touch. If it doesnt bind-up, but is difficult to move through whole range-link is too long. Shorten link.
Now for a base set-up. if track is smooth, then put 0.020 front springs on. Shim out all play-but no pre-load. 2 degrees of caster is pretty much where you want to be on the front arms. Use shims to raise front of arms to get caster. ! degree of Camber is good too.
Build center shock with 80 wt. Associated shock oil and purchase a Wolf Black spring. An Associated Copper will work in a pinch!!! If bumpy track, try a Associted Blue spring with lighter oil in it. Install Orange tweak springs on side and fill Dampner tube with Medium Losi Hydra Fluid. Build and test dampner tubes till they feel the same side to side.
Use Purple front tires and Grey rears. Set ride height at around 4mm. Also set rear shock's overall length so that the rear pod droops down just a mm or so when holding car in the air.
Thats should be a good place to start!!!
05-14-2002, 12:59 AM
bstorey: Ray's baseline set-up is a really good place to start. Since you're new to 1/12th I'd probably recommend 4 deg. of caster to start. It'll make the car a tad smoother at low speeds but it'll still have really good high speed steering.
As far as converting a Rev. 2 to a Rev. 3, all you need is the main chassis plate, the battery tray, two very short countersunk 4-40 screws, and low-profile 4-40 nuts. I'm relatively certain a conversion is available from SpeedMerchant. Check out www.TeamSpeedMerchant.com.
If you have anymore questions feel free to post 'em here. I'll help out however I can.
05-14-2002, 01:03 AM
bstorey: Where are you going to be racing? Ultra in Cinci is racing on Saturdays this Summer, I don't think Y-city in Zanesville is racing inside 'till the fall season starts. Ultra should go back to Sundays this fall. That's where I normally race.
05-14-2002, 09:10 AM
I think I'm going to just get some track time as I can this summer at Cinci or Zanesville. Then this fall, I was going to try to race as much as possible with a wife and 2 year old.
05-14-2002, 10:38 AM
I would love to run at Cinci, but I have so many other toys right now!!! And-this is really pathetic, I only have one ESC right now!!!
05-14-2002, 11:52 AM
Ray - I have some GM V-12's. Can we trade for something? I also have some Tekin G-9's with recently updated power FETs.
05-14-2002, 12:36 PM
David, Thanks-this will be fun to try the GMV12!!! I love my Novaks-I really do. Me and my (buddies) Pit Wizard are never far apart!!! But the darn Cyclones are so HUGE and HEAVY in the 12th scale car!!!!
05-15-2002, 12:54 AM
bstorey: I too have a wife and an almost two year old. It's not really all that easy, but my wife is pretty understanding.........I get out about twice a month during the regular season.
Y-city is really nice, and Kevin(the owner) is a great guy. Ultra's great too. I live in Springfield so it's a little closer for me to race down at Ultra. Plus that's where Junior Norton, Mike Pulfer, Eli Ezrow, and Chris Doseck race. I've raced with these guys for about 15 years, and they're super fast, and cool to hang with. I'm sure we'll run into each other, one place or the other. If you have any questions just post 'em or e-mail me. :devil:
05-15-2002, 09:21 AM
I'm heading out to Y-City this Saturday for some practice. I should have my Rev2 running by then but if not me and another guy are going to have our micro RS4's ready. Should be a good time. Not ready for racing 1/12th yet but I'll be there soon.
Twice a month might be possible. My wife has gotten much more understanding after I took a race school at Mid-Ohio. I guess she figures RC is cheaper and safer than full scale. :)
05-15-2002, 10:48 AM
bstorey - I want to encourage you to keep working with your REV2. I ran in that configuration at my best races last year. It is identical to the REV3 when we have the batteries in the rear position. I think the REV2 is very competitive at almost every carpet track. Now that I look back, I might have done better at the other races if I had not put the batteries forward. The driving feel is dramatically different between the two setups. Good luck and practice as much as you can. It will pay off. Mr. Cypress MidWest needs to do that, too. Hugh, Ian?
05-15-2002, 10:49 AM
last message: hugh = huh
05-15-2002, 10:52 AM
Thanks...I plan on working with the Rev2 for a while. Someone told me recently that just about any 1/12th scale car with a good motor, batteries, and tires can be setup to do well on a track. I'm looking forward to racing it.
05-15-2002, 10:54 AM
I've been confused by this for some time now. When I get new tires should I have them turned down to a certain size or just use them as they are to get the most life out of them?
Also, can someone explain rollout to me and it's effects/usefullness in setting up the car?
05-15-2002, 11:09 AM
I ran my rear tires out of package a couple times last year on the Rev.3. It seems to not mind bigger tires, especially for club racing. Just keep a nice radius on the tires edges. Rollout is very important and very easy!!! Rollout is how far your car travels in one revolution of the pinion. It is the onlt true and accurate way to compare your cars gear ratio to another drivers gear ratio. In other words, if you and your arch rival are both identical batteries, motor, car and both running 32/100, but he is much faster, you and he most likely have very different size rear tires!!!
Rollout = (Tire diameter * 3.145) * (pinion/spur)
By knowing your rollout (or anyone elses) you can change tire size, spur gear, pinion, etc and always come back to the same rollout run after run!!!
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