5 spots left!

Ferrari ------- Dale Monroe & Seth Barrand

Renault ------ Jason Pfeiffer & co-worker

BAR Honda --- Sean Bushnell & Scott Heath

Williams BMW - Brad Mergy & Josh Monroe

McLaren ----- Karl Womack & Chris Oldfield

Sauber ------

Jaguar ------- Ben Puterbaugh & Todd Schmidt

Toyota ------ Matt Reinhold & Eric Reinhold

Jordan ------- Tim Rasnick &

Minardi ------

Min weight: XX.X oz
Width: xxx MM
Ride Height: 3 mm
Gearing: open?
Motor: 19T machine wound tagged arm(chameleon/reedy); adj timing cans allowed
Tires: Any rubber
Battery: open
ESC: open
Oneway: No?

I think the minimum weight should be kit stock with some big electronics (full size servo & receiver with a Cyclone). Width should be kit stock, no more or less. I have and adjustable motor mount, so I am all for open gearing, but I think some of the others would prefer the regular low or high speed gear set, whichever you prefer. I like the motor rules Ben has proposed. The Revolution can will increase the expense, but in the long run will make things MUCH better. Tires have to be the F1 specific rubber tires with the grooves, currently Tamiya, Ride, Pit Shimizu and Square are the only companies I know of that make these tires. No one has weighed in on the battery issue. I believe the inline packs are going to be a pain to fit in the car. I also don't want to buy stick packs for no reason. What do you guys think? I think we should ban the one way.

How do you guys feel about the team swapping Ben proposed at the end of the season? I think it should be by team points, not the individual driver. Ben is suggesting the first place team gets to swap bodies, and therefore manufacturers with whomever they choose, or not. Then the second and so forth. This is better than a money pot.

Please address all of these rules and questions. Thanks!

-Sean

BTW I have a Prodigi ESC that is very small. It used to be my primary 12th scale unit. It will fit very well in the F201. I am willing to part with it if anyone is interested.

-Sean

It's a pivot ball car therefore the width is adjustable by several mm

Off of the Tamiya USA website:
Basic Specifications
Overall length: 425mm
Overall width: 196mm
Overall height: 98mm
Minimum clearance: 5mm
Weight fully equipped: 1,486g (including TP-S3003 servo, CPR Unit, RC2400SP battery)
Wheel base: 280mm
Tread (f/r): 164/159mm

Can't argue with that. You might want to have one of the toolbox twins verify those numbers though, before you bless it.

We need to finalize the rules for the motor and gearing.

Any 19-turn?

Any spec 19-turn?

Any spec 19-turn armature in any can combonation?



Any Gearing?

I think any spec 19 turn in any can would be good. No one else has sounded off on this subject yet Brad, give it a sec. I think we will have to limit it to Tamiya regular or high speed gearsets only. You can run either, nothing aftermarket. This is until everyone has a chance to get an adjustable motor mount. Regardless you will only be able to run the 64 pitch 88 tooth spur when we do open up that rule. That is the biggest 64 pitch that Seth could fit in his deal.

What do you think we should do about the batteries?

-Sean

Can the aftermarket chassis use the Tamiya gears, or are they strictly set up for standard spurs? We could limit the gearing to the 2 ratios available in the stock Tamiya chassis, but use your own 64 pitch/48 pitch gears to match those ratios. Yeah, I know it would be a nightmare to tech that.... just a thought.
It would be nice to be able to check for ride height, check for 19 turn motor, and that's it.

Can the aftermarket chassis use the Tamiya gears, or are they strictly set up for standard spurs? We could limit the gearing to the 2 ratios available in the stock Tamiya chassis, but use your own 64 pitch/48 pitch gears to match those ratios. Yeah, I know it would be a nightmare to tech that.... just a thought.
It would be nice to be able to check for ride height, check for 19 turn motor, and that's it.

The 3Racing chassis can use the Tamiya gears. I think it will be easier to tech the Tamiya gears until everyone can get a chassis, then we can open up the gearing.

-Sean

The ARCOR hand wound spec 19Ts will be a big speed advantage over the chameleons. I think that would be a little much for the chassis. I was initially going to go this route but thought better of it for cost and broken parts standpoint, not to mention the 'you're winning b/c you're running a mod whining'. On the other hand we could just say no lower than 19T, so you could run a 23T single for instance.

Maybe; yes; yes; not to start(you can't even get the part now)

We need to finalize the rules for the motor and gearing.

Any 19-turn?

Any spec 19-turn?

Any spec 19-turn armature in any can combonation?



Any Gearing?

I am against the low/high-speed gear set. Gearing is very important to the motors life. If it is under or overgeared they are going to get HOT and when they get too HOT they go to crap fast.



Anyone can order the Square Spur gear Adapter from Pit stop, they are available. $14 I also think Nick's Hobby Shop is going to stock parts for the F1 cars so they will probably have them in stock if they know we need them.





As far as an adjustable motor mount, either get the 3racing chassis or buy an adjustable motor mount. I am going to look into seeing if I can modify my stock motor mount.



I also have a high-speed gear set coming but I don’t think it is the proper gear ratio for running 19-turn indoors on carpet but if it is great! Also I would like to run 64 pitch.





Batteries - 6 cells anything goes. This way there is no need for touring car people to have to buy new batteries.



Also - lets set the rules, I don't like to hear "not now" or "not until everyone has them” there is nothing worse than rules that constantly change. I have a stock car that's it. So I don't have an advantage on anyone so if the parts aren’t available I won't have them but that isn't a reason not to let the people who have them run them. Just my 2 cents. We still have a couple weeks there is time to get the adj gears and motor mount.

Batteries - 6 cells anything goes. This way there is no need for touring car people to have to buy new batteries.

I am all for not buying more batteries for no reason!! The problem is I am not sure an inline pack will work in these cars, or it will be a real PITA to fit them.

The gearing issue is complicated. I don't want to run the wrong gear, but I don't want a handful of people on a different lap because they spend the extra cash either.

-Sean

Post edited :) I will report back after I find a good solution for the gearing. As far as the Chassis I don't know, all I can say is "Be the Dremel"

i'm going to try some on road this winter, i live in goshen. if i come into the ft. on 33, how do i get there? 1/12th scale 4cell stock, any motor, gear and tire recommendations. same for touring. what are the motor rules on 19 turn touring?

has anyone figured out how to get a side x side pack to fit yet?

I plan on dremeling away at the plastic until it fits.

has anyone figured out how to get a side x side pack to fit yet?

I guess I am for the open gearing after giving it some thought. I think a lot of spur adapters for a 5mm shaft could work with a little work and it should be pretty simple to dremel some slots in the standard or optional plates or maybe we could get a machinist to do a bunch. Sean has the last word though.

I am not for changing teams. Because of the cost in doing so. Paint, having stickers custom made and so on. Just my two cents.

Also if we start changing teams based on points we will end up with one or two teams that win and the rest will just be running around the track.

I also would to see the rule say any 19turn.

1armed1,
To get here from 33 is fairly easy. Just stay on 33 until it gets to I-69. Continue on over I-69, and just keep going straight on that road. Not counting the stop lights at the overpass of I-69, go thru 3 lights, and turn right at the 4th, into Gateway Plaza shopping center.(Big sign for the shopping center). The raceway is at the left end of the row of stores.
For 1/12 scale 4-cell stock, most racers use the Monster stock motor. For tires, grey compound rears and purple compound fronts. For touring, plaid fronts, purple rears, unless someone else has newer info. 19 turn rules.... hmmmm... I don't know. The largest percenteage of racers ran stock, so I'm not sure of rules for 19 turn.
Hope you can make it down for some racing this season. Road course Sundays at noon, and Tuesday nights at 7 PM. Oval on Saturdays at 5 PM, I believe.

i'm going to try some on road this winter, i live in goshen. if i come into the ft. on 33, how do i get there? 1/12th scale 4cell stock, any motor, gear and tire recommendations. same for touring. what are the motor rules on 19 turn touring?

Ok hear is my opinion MR. commish

19 turn any config

gearing any config

no team changing - unless a team is just going to quit then they give up their team pref

all other is good

Hey I did do a lot more looking and found 85, 81, 78 teeth spur gears and tracy orderd them in to the shop so they are in stock I am now running
81-33 (2:45) and that is right in the middle of tamiya high/low gear sets. I still think its a little to high for the 19t

seth

I am not for changing teams. Because of the cost in doing so. Paint, having stickers custom made and so on. Just my two cents.
The proposal is you trade bodies and teams. You would hand me your McLaren shell and wings and I would hand you my Honda set. There would be no extra cost. If my body is in better shape at the end of the year then maybe I won't want to trade. But it is team for team, if your teammate doesn't want to team up next year then there would be a trade anyway. I think it is a novel idea, but I don't think it will work. Almost everyone is against it, motion not carried.
Also - lets set the rules, I don't like to hear "not now" or "not until everyone has them” there is nothing worse than rules that constantly change. I have a stock car that's it. So I don't have an advantage on anyone so if the parts aren’t available I won't have them but that isn't a reason not to let the people who have them run them. Just my 2 cents. We still have a couple weeks there is time to get the adj gears and motor mount.
I'm hearing you. We are already talking about running two short seasons; Oct-Dec '04 and Jan-April '05. That is when we will try some different things. We will try the bump and two different points schemes. I want to nail down the tech rules ASAP. How about:
Overall length: 425mm
Overall width: 196mm
Overall height: 98mm
Minimum clearance: 5mm
Weight fully equipped: 1,486g
Wheel base: 280mm
F201 based chassis (Kit stock or aftermarket)
spec 19-turn arm, any can
Open Gearing
Open battery
Have to do a team paint job and stickers etc...
Must use F1 grooved rubber tires (Ride, Pits, Tamiya, Square)

anything else???

-Sean

I like that it sounds good for all, so you have my vote.

its not 100% what i want but hey i am easy, when the tamiya gear thing was being talked about i was sick thinking about putting those crappy gears in my car, but I would have done it.

so any way hustler you are doing a good job listning to every one.

I do know that this current rules could change but as they are I vote yes

seth

Has anyone seen Mclaren stickers yet. Karl or myself have not and are going to have to have them custom made, at a price of around $50.00-$60.00. So if anyone knows a better deal we would appreciate it

Thanks Sheath, When Can I Come Practice?

Talked to Dan Terhune at Indy's HobbyTown monday. They have been running F1 outdoors during the summer and we talked about having a big F1 race at our place this winter then having one in Indy next summer, preferably close to the Indy Grand Prix. I will have more on this later.

Ok hear is my opinion MR. commish
... I am not Michael Chiklis, thanks anyway...
19 turn any config
gearing any config
no team changing - unless a team is just going to quit then they give up their team pref
all other is good
Hey I did do a lot more looking and found 85, 81, 78 teeth spur gears and tracy orderd them in to the shop so they are in stock I am now running
81-33 (2:45) and that is right in the middle of tamiya high/low gear sets. I still think its a little to high for the 19t
seth
Very cool about the gears. I think we need to have that 19 spec tag in the armature so we know what it is easily. I like the no team changing deal. Your teammate should be working with you. If you two don't get along or something, you should be able to leave or they should go. I also think that if someone wants to get in a team and it is full they should be able to ask one of the team members if they would take a buyout of some sort or discuss options.

-Sean

I am not Michael Chiklis, thanks anyway...
Quote:


hey chiklis is pretty cool as Vic Macky.... I have seen every episode for 3 seasons. I liked him as the commish.

hey how cool would that be to have a big race in INDY with the F1's and those guys to come hear this winter too man that would be cool. Just like the world super bike guys comming to laguna seca to race with the AMA guys.

seth

hey dale what did you do wait till Kerry went to bed and sneek out of the condo and go to a library to get on line??? You are sick and in need of a intervention man...

1armed1,
The raceway is open for practice Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday right now. We still have offroad on Saturday, frequency conflicts would make that tough. The hobby shop and track is open noon until 9 PM on those days. The track is set up for road course right now, but we also have oval. The best might be to call ahead to see which is set up when you want to come. Once the season starts, Wednesday thru Saturday is set up for oval, and Sunday thru Tuesday is set up for road course. 260-471-2722
I assume you found our website, but if not it is fwsarc.8m.com. There are race calendars you can click on from the first page to see what is happening on which days. Hope to see you at the track!

Thanks Sheath, When Can I Come Practice?

The proposal is you trade bodies and teams. You would hand me your McLaren shell and wings and I would hand you my Honda set. There would be no extra cost. If my body is in better shape at the end of the year then maybe I won't want to trade. But it is team for team, if your teammate doesn't want to team up next year then there would be a trade anyway. I think it is a novel idea, but I don't think it will work. Almost everyone is against it, motion not carried.

I'm hearing you. We are already talking about running two short seasons; Oct-Dec '04 and Jan-April '05. That is when we will try some different things. We will try the bump and two different points schemes. I want to nail down the tech rules ASAP. How about:
Overall length: 425mm
Overall width: 196mm
Overall height: 98mm
Minimum clearance: 5mm
Weight fully equipped: 1,486g
Wheel base: 280mm
F201 based chassis (Kit stock or aftermarket)
spec 19-turn arm, any can
Open Gearing
Open battery
Have to do a team paint job and stickers etc...
Must use F1 grooved rubber tires (Ride, Pits, Tamiya, Square)

anything else???

-Sean Sounds good! Except for the ride hight. I don't run my touring car that high. I am thinking 3mm or maybe 4mm. I don't want these things to look like 4x4 F1's :).

What exactly is considered a spec 19-turn arm? Are you talking the 19-turn machine wound (reedy/trinity) arms or the hand wound labeled 19-turns?

And how in the world did Sean get Dale's and Ben's support? I didn't think that was even possible?

And how in the world did Sean get Dale's and Ben's support? I didn't think that was even possible?

Man, you ain't just whistling Dixie!! Not sure what happened, maybe they didn't fully contemplate what they agreed to!

The ride height and those other dimensions were a cut and paste from the Tamiya website and quite negotiable.

Not sure about what arm we should run, don't really care. I think that specific arm should be the same in EVERY car, if you want to stick it in a stock can or a Revolution can it doesn't matter. That would probably be the easiest way to tech it.

Ideas?

-Sean

Man, you ain't just whistling Dixie!! Not sure what happened, maybe they didn't fully contemplate what they agreed to!

The ride height and those other dimensions were a cut and paste from the Tamiya website and quite negotiable.

Not sure about what arm we should run, don't really care. I think that specific arm should be the same in EVERY car, if you want to stick it in a stock can or a Revolution can it doesn't matter. That would probably be the easiest way to tech it.

Ideas?

-Sean
I don't care on the Armature, just need to know so I can get one.

I vote for a 3mm ride height. 5mm is for asphalt racing. Also we will be running rubber tires so we won't have to worry about the cars getting lower as we run.

I don't care on the Armature, just need to know so I can get one.

I vote for a 3mm ride height. 5mm is for asphalt racing. Also we will be running rubber tires so we won't have to worry about the cars getting lower as we run.

3mm is fine unless someone has a problem with it. :rolleyes: What is the pricing difference and the performance difference between the two armatures? If there is a bunch of performance gain and the price is close I say we go with the hand wound. If a lot of people have the machine wound already then I say we should stick with that. Thoughts?

-Vic Macky

Sounds like everyone wants open 19T; That's fine with me. I think it will be easy enough to tech too. I put my chameleon arm in my V2 can last night and you could easily see the tag through the can.



Man, you ain't just whistling Dixie!! Not sure what happened, maybe they didn't fully contemplate what they agreed to!

The ride height and those other dimensions were a cut and paste from the Tamiya website and quite negotiable.

Not sure about what arm we should run, don't really care. I think that specific arm should be the same in EVERY car, if you want to stick it in a stock can or a Revolution can it doesn't matter. That would probably be the easiest way to tech it.

Ideas?

-Sean

I think the issue is that there's a lot of 19T arms out there, Speed Gem 19T double, 19T fixed timing, adjustable timing, d5 handwound 19T, v2 19T, etc.. Most should be tagged or at least labeled 19x1; 19x3.
Cost increase is that of a standard mod (~$50 ) but since you shouldn't be cutting the arm every run and replacing brushes, I don't know that it matters. I think everyone for the most part has some type of 19T so if we narrow the allowable types is the only way you really increase cost. As for the speed difference, some are going to be faster, some a lot faster, that's part of the racing right? The way I see the 19T rule is similiar to defining a given displacement or engine config in full size racing.

The only way to come close is brushless spec where the motor responds to a given acceleration curve, and the every motor/battery combo is capable of meeting that power curve.


3mm is fine unless someone has a problem with it. :rolleyes: What is the pricing difference and the performance difference between the two armatures? If there is a bunch of performance gain and the price is close I say we go with the hand wound. If a lot of people have the machine wound already then I say we should stick with that. Thoughts?

-Vic Macky

I think the issue is that there's a lot of 19T arms out there, Speed Gem 19T double, 19T fixed timing, adjustable timing, d5 handwound 19T, v2 19T, etc.. Most should be tagged or at least labeled 19x1; 19x3... The way I see the 19T rule is similiar to defining a given displacement or engine config in full size racing.


OK, the idea is the rule states 19-turn only, no mention of which brand, style, single, double, nothing? I want to be able to look into the motor and see that tag on the arm saying you aren't cheating, I want it to be easy. Who is for the simple 19 turn rule and who wants a specific arm in any can?

-Sean

just something to think about I have fond a 6 cell stick pack assembled with no connector from O-tec for 35 bucks out the door these packs are gp3300 and in the past all have been 400+ runtime and voltage of 1.165 to 1.169. this pack if used could have a label installed under the clear heat srink stating something like "04/05 f1"
or whatever we want. This would save you from cutting chassis, also from looking at the side by side packs you will notice that the outer 2 cells would not be supported at all they are just hanging out in the open just a thought...

Tracey

OK, here's my 2 cents. If it has a tag on the armature that you can see thru the holes in the can, (EPIC 19, YOK 19, etc.) then it's legal. I believe that the only arms tagged in this manner are the 19 turn single 19 AWG wire arms. I don't think arms that are not singles, or are a different guage wire would be tagged.
I've seen rules that do not allow hybrid motors (Reedy arm in a Trinity can for example) but they usually refer to stock motors. I don't think there would be a significant perfomance advantage to that, so it wouldn't bother me to allow hybrids. It sounds like the reason it came up was to take advantage of the new Revolution endbell and brushes that are quickly gaining a reputation for low maintenance. The only opposition would be if we decide that we should stick with the fixed timing motors as opposed to adjustable timing. Then your choices are limited.

After editing this post for the 4th time, I decided that idea was not formed well enough to post yet.

OK, the idea is the rule states 19-turn only, no mention of which brand, style, single, double, nothing? I want to be able to look into the motor and see that tag on the arm saying you aren't cheating, I want it to be easy. Who is for the simple 19 turn rule and who wants a specific arm in any can?

-Sean
I think a simple any brand, make, style ect 19 turn motor is a good way to go.

Chris

You're supposed to decide Sean:) From the sounds of it nobody wants 'Super Stock' 19T but most want 19T modified. I think the Super stock or spec 19T will be more expensive and time consuming b/c you will have to work harder to get the power out of the motor and next thing you know we'll be changing brushes every run.



OK, the idea is the rule states 19-turn only, no mention of which brand, style, single, double, nothing? I want to be able to look into the motor and see that tag on the arm saying you aren't cheating, I want it to be easy. Who is for the simple 19 turn rule and who wants a specific arm in any can?

-Sean

I guess I see the F1 thing as a group of guys that are already racing, wanting to try something different on Tuesday, along with their class of choice. It's a car I can stick a battery in, run it and have a ball, and pretty much leave it sit as-is until the next heat.
Are we getting too far away from the original intent of the class?
I don't remember where, but I read a post regarding what a racer did in his F1 series at a different track. He bought 1 battery pack, put it in his car at the beginning of the season, soldered the connections, and didn't remove it until after the last race of the year. That's an extreme case, but it illustrates the kind of simplicity I had imagined for this class.
The above quote was just my idea for the class, nothing that was agreed upon by the majority or anything.

No I think we are just trying to clarify what will be run. The no working on the motor is why I will be running a v2 19t, b/c I should be able to run that for more than one week, w/o rebuild. The motor will be more powerful than what the chassis is capable of so you won't have to replace brushes before the main jsut b/c your main competition did. I will probably even install connectors on my batts for this class!

Well, I see your point there... that is directly related to the simplicity of the class. Low maintenance. Looking back on my last post, I think that last Mountain Dew I had right before I posted, wound me a little tight. I'm a little more relaxed now, so don't read too much into it.
I guess the motor issue really comes down to two things...
Armatures and cans.
Any 19 turn arm (preferably still a single), or only tagged 19 single 19 guage wire arms?
Adjustable timing cans, or fixed timing cans?

Must be able to prove it's 19T arm somehow(if it's even questionable) and any can; that way v2 cans are legal and maintenance goes way down.

OK, what arms come with that nifty 19 spec (YOK19) or whatever tag? If we can agree that the arm has to be easily identifiable as "X" or we can say you have to have "X" arm, then tech will be easy and everyone has to be honest - or seriously motivated to cheat at fun. I want to look in the vent hole of the motor and see that tag, plain as day. If it isn't there you are DQ'd. What arms fit this category?

-Sean