A older version is located here...

http://www.wiltse.net/zips/DynoViewer.zip


I'm not sure if Mike is ready to release the newest version yet... If so, you'll have to replace the .exe file that is ziped into the download above... Eventualy I'm sure it'll all get ziped into the location given above.

THe older version does Fantom and Robitronic data... and does two motors at once...

Now that Mike has posted too... I'll post something when the new version is ready to go... for now... the older version is quite usefull so it's not a waste of time to download what's there now...

Mike,

I'm not sure if your aware of this or not. I bring it up because you working on revising the program. The old version doesn't display fantom data with the torque measured in Newton/MM in a way that's usefull. It seems to make the y axix so broad in numbers the rest of the graph lines are bunched up on the bottom.

Just an FYI.

Oh... Mike has even corrected some of the color problems I was having...

The new DynoViewer is now avaiable as a complete package at...

http://www.wiltse.net/zips/DynoViewer.zip

If you downloaded it in the last minute or so... you've already got it... The new viewer does Loads Fantom II data from the clipboard, it also alows the 'wiltse' fudge factor for Fantom data from the clipboard... it also does Robitronic data from Robitronic text files... and it allows you to enter Competition Electronics TurboDyno data in via a data entry facility...

Here's a screen shot of the newest DynoViewer showing two of my competitor's ARCOR motors. THe data came from my Robitronic dyno.

http://www.wiltse.net/images/newviewer.gif

I'd post this as a image, but I'm not sure how many of those I should do... this image is like 50K...

In the image the two motors are geared like 1 tooth differnt... I'm pretty confident that these two motors would run nearly identical on the track geared like this...


Mike has done a exclent job on this program... I am highly impressed with his work...

What is the "gear motor" section on the right side ?

Oh... Mike also made AMPS as a secondary Y axis... this does something quite interesting... (at least it does on Robitronic data) You can see the almost one for one relationship of Current(AMPS) and Torque... I thought this was really cool.

I haven't looked at any Fantom Data yet with the newest version of the DynoViewer...

If Mike doesn't answer before I do...

The gearing section does a couple things....

There is a slider bar that allows you to apply diffent ratios to two differnt motors, it then redisplays the graphs with the new gearing. This only works for two motors. You select two of the four motors using the radio buttons under 'Referance Motor' and 'Gear Motor'.

The "Apply Gears" button uses the amp number to the right of it as a point to calculate gearing from... That is... if you use 20 amps, and then click on "apply gears" it chooses a ratio based on the RPM of each motor at 20 amps...

I personaly use the slider bar mostly... and ocasionaly play with the "apply gears" tool to see what it says...

Is that clear as mud?

Here's a screen shot of two of Snuffy's best Monster motors... a 1/2 tooth pinion change would achive this...

Notice the huge differnace in current between these two motors... yet the power output is basicly identical...

http://www.wiltse.net/images/snuffymonsters.gif

Forgive me .. I'm trying to catch up.

Where/How are you seeing 1/2 tooth pinion ?

DynoMoHum no problem any time. i haven't been keeping up with the thread for awhile, it's just to much, i'll stick with track testing
:roll: i'll send some brushes out to you tomorrow so you can try them in your own motors. good luck mike

Another question -- those motors look like they have peak power at 55 amps -- yet from what I've seen in this thread, it's doubtful that in 4 cell oval you would actually pull 55 amps.

right ?

Goodwrench... I may be wrong on this... I haven't exactly figured it out yet... I said 1/2 tooth... because when I used the gearing slider to get the torque curves to match up pretty evenly from one end to the other... the ratio the DynoViewer gave is 1.02:1.00 ...

It is/was my assumption that if I took my pinion on the referance motor and multiplied it by 2% I would get the 1.02:1.00 ratio used in the graph of Snuffy's monster motors. This would seem to be exactly correct if you had a 100 tooth spur gear... With other size spur gears the calculation gets more complex I think... but not that bad...



OK... here is Mike's Putnam 19 Turn Spec motor compared to Keith Ractnor's (sp??) 19 Turn ARCOR motor... Keith was the guy who helped me test drive my car with Mike's motor vs my own motor... I think Keith won the race I was in this past Sunday... Keith used to be sponsored by Woods Racing.... Motor 1 is the Putnam motor, and Motor 2 is a Kisbey 19 Turn ARCOR motor. Geared as I have them in this graph, I beleive the tops speed would be very simmilar with these two motors... Again in this graph the gearing less then 1/2 tooth differnt...


http://www.wiltse.net/images/arcor_vs_putnam.gif


With a good driver and good setup, this Putnam motor should have been significantly faster then the Motor Keith ran... in my humble opion... Keith was just lucky I'm not a good driver and my car setup is not as good as his... :)

I'll try to explain what the Gear Numbers mean.

If it says 1.02:1, and you usually gear the base motor or "Reference Motor" at say 5.2 overall ratio.(I just made that number up.) Then you would gear the new motor or "Gear Motor" at 5.2 * 1.02 = 5.304. Now that could be anywhere from 1/2 a tooth to 3 teeth.

Basically I'm just showing the ratio's between the two motors. I don't see a need to gear both motor to a ratio. I just leave the Reference Motor at a 1:1 ratio and change the Gear Motor's ratio up and down accordingly. It works out really simple that way, plus you can compare it to 3 other motors at the same time, if you want.

I should add a gear calculator along with the other gearing stuff...

Might I suggest that if you provide a gear calculator... you also provide a roll out computation... Currently I have to jump through hoops to calculate rollout and it's not really that difficult to do...

Of course with rollout your just a step away from computing a therortical MPH speed... :)

How do you get the motor data from the Windows Fantom FACTS II software into the program ?

One of the features of Fantom Facts II is the ablity to save the 'time based data' to the clipboard. You have to have the full working version of the software... or you get basicly one chance to use this feature when you first download the trial version.

To actualy do it... you have to have the 'Option' menu item "Post Time Based Data to Clipboard" selected... once that is selected, every time you go view the time based data, it saves a copy of it to the clipboard.

Once it's in the clipboard, you go to Golden's DynoViewer and select "past Fantom data" from the apropreate 'Motor' menu...


For each motor, you go back and forth between the Facts II software and Golden's DynoViewer... saving and pasting as you go...

I hope that explains it enough...

Dynomohum- Do me a favor if you are willing. Apply this viewer or your own dyno viewer spreadsheet to a typical P2K file (not that one best of all motors) and a P2K2 file if you have one and use 1.065 as the gearing multiplier for the P2K2. Or send me a couple of motor files. The reason that I suggest this is that I determined this gearing as the optimum on the tight technical track at ReflexRC in my Losi XXXS. Actual gears were 7.09 for the P2K and 7.55 for the P2K2. Car ratio is 1.83. Now the motor which works best for me with traction compound seems to be the P2K. The motor that works best without traction compound is the P2K2. The GM3 is not even in the game either way. If you gear a GM3 to be competive on this track you tend to burn it up quickly.

I'll see what I can dig up... I know at one time I had a P2K and a P2K2 that put out nearly identical peak power... It may take a while to find them...

One thing I will warn however is that based on other tests I've done, sping tension can make a big differances in RPM on anything with more RPM then a P2K... so the two motors I find may not be very typical at all... Maybe I can find a couple differnt senrios...


By the way... Mike has added a few features since this morning... :) He he... it's really turning into quite a nice program... I beleive I'm going to be using it alot for trying to figure out a starting point for gearing once I have one motor that I know works reasonably well...

super.

Might also be good to put a Help > About on the menu with the version number so that we can tell what version we have vs. what is the most current.

Thanks!

Dynomohum- Thanks. If someone else has a couple of P2K2 motor files from the Robitronic Dyno, I would appreciate them as well. I have several P2K files and GM3 files already.

It didn't take as long as I though it might...

These 2 motors are so simmilar in power it's scary...

before any gearing...

http://www.wiltse.net/images/before_gears.gif

1.08:1.00 gearing...

http://www.wiltse.net/images/after_gears.gif

And as John requested 1.08:1.00 gearing...

http://www.wiltse.net/images/johns_gears.gif


Motor 1 is the P2K2, and Motor 2 is the P2K...

In this case, I'd say RPM is created equal. Most of the time this is what I see between two differnt EPIC motors with differnt RPM... but apprently things aren't always this close...

When I get a chance I'll put together a small collection of various Robitronic data files for people to play with. There are a couple included in the DynoViewer zip file I think...

I pluged some TurboDyno data in yesterday... the problem with it is that it's such small range of data it's hard to get a good idea of what's really going on. I was to some extent to get the torque curves to line up when some gearing was applied... but I didn't play with it too much.

Someone mentioned earlier that the torque numbers are different from one dyno to another(which I knew). Does anyone know the conversion from one to another? I would like to convert all torques read to the Robi form. Or the other way around, I don't care, just so they are the same measurement.

Personaly I would prefer that you don't change them... at least not as the only way to view them... perhaps offer a conversion feature but not change them outright and have no way back...

I plan to use your viewer hand in hand with my Robitronic software, and I'd like to be able to look at the data on the Robitronic software then bounce over to your software... if the torque was in some other units it would get all confusing...


Actually the Fantom offers two torque units... "grams per centimeter" and "newton millimeters"... presumably the differance between a 'newton meter' and a 'newton milimeter' is a few decimil points...

I beleive Robitronic's torque are in newton meters.


The more I think about it... ablity to switch between these three as well as 'inch ounces' or 'foot pounds' would be a cool feature...

Heck we might even be able to get Big Jim to use a flywheel dyno if he could view the data in english units of measure... :)

Oh... for the record... you can try to compare dyno data between all three of the dynos that Golden's viewer supports... but you'll quickly find they just don't compare very well... However you can see some simmilaritys between them... especialy between the Fantom and the Robitronic dynos... the curves are somewhat simmilar...

Mike:

To convert Fantom (DOS version) to Turbo Dyno torque numbers, (kgf*cm)*13.887 = (in*ozf)

Mike here are some conversions

1 oz-in = 7.07 N-mm = .0722kgf-cm
1 N-mm = .141 oz-in = .0102 kgf-cm
1-kgf-cm = 13.9 oz-in = 98.0 N-mm

Torque units of some common dynos

Competition Electronics Turbo dyno- ounce-inch
Fantom- kilogram-force-cm (at least the older ones)
Robitronic- newton-millimeter

Here is the latest version. You need to have it already installed on your computer. This is just the .exe. You will need to replace the DynoViewer.exe on your computer with this one. Your DynoViewer.exe should be in folder "C:\Program Files\DynoViewer\".

Also, I include sample data with the installer. It can be found at "C:\Program Files\DynoViewer\Sample Data\".

I added the About under Help, so that file is Officially Version 1.2.0.


With this newer version, you can do the following:
1. Click on a Point on a Curve, and it displays its value and hilights the curve.
2. Click anywhere and drag in a lower right direction will Zoom In.
3. Click anywhere and drag in a upper left direction will Zoom Out.
4. Right Click and drag will move the graph around.
5. New options for viewing each individual Curve. You can turn off Torque for example.
6. New Help Menu has About, which shows current Version.
7. New File Menu that allows Exit. :rolleyes:

Mike,

Did you also put in the gearing option, as Dyno did in his spreadsheet.

BTW I allready downloaded an earlier version from you.
But there are some things not entirely clear to me.
I'm a bit short of time right now, so I'll be posting some straight q's later.
Any help would be appreciated.

CU
Pizza

Mike,

I did have a quick peak.
Man this looks great.

But I do not quite understand how to use yoer amps and gearing options?
I mean, I race TC and use other gearing than is mentioned here...
Could you, or one of the others here please explain this.
Thanks.


Pizza

Lets set up a senerio.

Say Motor 1 is a motor you know how to gear. Lets say it is geared 72 spur 25 pinion with a tranny of 2.5 (TC3). That is a gear of 7.2. Now you have just dynoed a new motor (Motor 2). Now you want to gear the 2 motors so that their 20 amp RPM numbers overlap. You simply type in 20 amps in the "Amps" box, make sure Motor 1 is the "Reference Motor" and Motor 2 is the "Gear Motor". Then Hit the "Apply Gears" button.
You will see the Graph for Motor 2 Change. Lets say it now says the ratio is "1.08:1". Just take your Motor 1's Ratio and Multiply it by 1.08. This would be 7.2 * 1.08 = 7.776. 7.776 would be your new final drive ratio.

Rollout would work the same way too.


Does that help?

Can someone post the entire DynoViewer package or at maybe tell me which page in this thread has it? I'm not feeling too eager to go through every page on here looking for it. :D

Thanks!
-rich

Mike -- WOW!!!!!!!

This is really eye-opening to look at.

I thought my Monster was a better motor than my GM3 because my Monster showed 64 power on my Fantom and the GM3 only showed 60.

BUT -- looking at the data this way shows that the GM3 puts out WAY more power from 0 to 28 amps.

Now the question becomes what is the correct amp factor to use for the gearing section. What is correct for motor comparison if you are running 4-cell oval on a large track where you are basically full throttle all the way around ??

Thanks!

for 4 cell oval with no lift i would look at the power # at the point of peak efficiency....the point at which are up to speed and not accelerating any more. That is where your motor spends the majotity of its tim eon the oval...FWIW

Thanks Mike,

I'm going to fiddle around with your advice.
It makes sense.
I'll let you know if Ireally get it, or wants some additional support.


Pizza

Rich,

DynoMoHum posted a package a page or two back. It's close by.


Mike,

Thank you for all the work you put into this wonderfull program and making it freely available to all of us.

MIke Thanks for the program. I will try to add some turbodyno data in there and see what I can do.

Snuffy - awesome. Got it. Thanks!

Be carefull with the "apply gears" at some specific amp feature... I think sometimes it does exactly what you would want a gearing thing to do... sometimes it doesn't...

This feature was one of the orginal functions of Mike's dyno viewer, I think it came about from some comments I had made along time ago (weeks).

If you "apply gears" while your looking at the RPM based graph, and the slope of the torque curves for the two motors are not very simmilar, it's my beleif that you don't really have a very good gear selection... This sometimes happens when using this feature... I don't currently have any explination of when and how this occurs... not enough experiance yet...

What I do, is try to get the torque curves to match up as close as possible. If the shape of the torque curve is simmilar, then you can do this quite well, and based on my limited experiance with this and on track proformance it seems to be quite accurate... at least with Robitronic data...

I deffintely think this tool allows you to visualise exacly what differnt gearing will do... Lower pinon (higher ratio) will give you more torque at low RPM but your tops speed will suffer... gearing in the other direction will do just the oposit...


If someone could post some graphs of TurboDyno Data, that would be cool...


I just thought of something for future versions... If it's not to difficult, perhaps Mike could make a way to save TurboDyno data... so you wouldn't have to repeatedly type it in... and could recall it for future refrence....

I looked at a Monster as motor #1 and a GM3 as #2.

The Monster peaked at about 21000 RPM and the GM3 at 19000.

When I did the "apply gear" at 20 amps, the ratio factor was 1.28.

However, you would not want to multiply the gear ratio used for the Monster by 1.28 because this would give a HIGHER numeric ratio -- what you need for motor #2 (GM3) is a LOWER numeric ratio because it turns LESS RPM than motor #1 (Monster).

Right ??

Try using swaping around which motor is the "reference motor" and which one is the "gear motor".... Either that or muliply by the inverse... 0.72...

However... that sounds like way too much of a gear change for 10% differnce in RPM... but I'd have to see the data and/or graph to say for sure... Is there anyway you can send me the data for these two motors? or your whole data file if you like... send to iggy@merit.edu tell me which to motors your refering too...


By the way... I've started playing with some TurboDyno data... I can tell you that having the Torque in inch ounces really makes it diffucult to veiew... The way Mike has things set up currently it works better if the torque figures are in units that resemble the same ammount as power... otherwise the data looks very tiny...

You can get around this by zooming in on the Torque, or only displaying Torque, etc... but conversion would be cool... :)

I'll post it and then post a link to it here tonight if I get a minute. The GM3 had a lot more torque and power than the Monster at amp loads of 0 to 20 amps. I know you said earlier that motors with different torque curves could be a problem.

Thanks.

On my dyno I find most stock motors have very simmilar torque curves... at least in terms of their basic shape... The actual amount of torque can be compensated for with gearing in most motors. It's only the ocasional odd motor that has some odd shape that presents a problem...

Currently I'm trying to figure out exacly what causes the variation in the shape of the curves... It may be brushes but I'm not sure just yet.

I've been playing with some TurboDyno Data... I don't think gearing based on RPM at some specific AMP input point will work very well...

The best way to do it is to view only 'torque' on the RPM graph that the DynoViewer provides, then move the slider back and forth till you get the torque to line up... I beleive that is where your gearing will be best. Depending on the effciency of the motor, this may use more or less current... Once you get the torque lined up, you can turn on the other data types to see the other stuff...


NEWS FLASH....

Golden's DynoViewer has been improved once again... It now has a gear calculator complete with rollout, and the ablity to save and recall TurboDyno data...

get DynoViewer Version 1.3 here...

http://www.wiltse.net/zips/DynoViewer.zip

and you can also get some TurboDyno data to view here...

http://www.wiltse.net/zips/turbodynodata.zip

What if the torque curves aren't parallel ? I mean -- rather than being able to line up, the curves cross each other at only one point -- where do you move them to intersect ?

Is there a bug in the gear calculator ?

I entered:

Transmission: 1.0
Spur: 116
Pinion: 36
Tire Diameter: 2.28

It calculated:

Final ratio: 3.22
Final rollout: 23.08 ???????

My math says the rollout should be: 2.22

right ??

If they aren't parallel... then that theorticly is the differance in power you'll see on the track... That is if the low RPM side has more torque then it'll accelerate faster in slow corners. If the high RPM side has more torque then it'll be faster at the end of the straightaway...

With the TurboDyno data it's very hard to see the big picture because you don't have data for the big picture... only a small window to try and see into the motors proformance...

With the fantom and Robi data, you should be able to see the bigger picture... Now I'm not saying that the TurboDyno is not as good... but it does limit the amount of data you have to look at...


If peak power of the two motors you are viewing is drasticly differnt then the torque will not be parallel... there are also an ocasional few motors that have torque curves that just have differnt shapes, regardless of the peak power... (like the Putnam 19 turn I showed earlier compared to my 19 turn....)

Differnt types of motors such as a 19 turn vs. a 27 turn will also have very great differances in the slope of the torque curve... your guess is as good as mine as to how to try and deal with those...

Yes, I bleleive your right Goodwrench... seems to be a bad calculation... I've emailed Mike... he'll likely have it fixed promptly... I'll let you know when the corrected version is ready...

TeamGoodwrench,

May I see your math in long hand. You may very well be correct, but its really hard for me to tell what I did wrong if I cannot see how you came to your answer.

After reading that is comes of as sounding defensive, but I'm not trying to be. I'm just asking how to do it right.

Here is my math:

Spur: 116
Pinion: 36
Tire diameter: 2.28"

Final ratio = 116/36 = 3.2222

Final rollout: (2.28 * PI) / 3.2222 = 2.22

I know when I put the numbers into the Robitronic gear calulator they come out like Goodwrench's do...

Robi lists the calculation as...

TyreSize x PI / ratio

(complete with funny europian spelling of tire)