i stepped on steves retiring post (forgive me) so i felt a new thread for rules discussion should be fired up.

allan will you make rule changes (if needed) by yourself? a commitee or have all racers chime in and decide from there?

will we see speed decreases in some if not all classes for the fall season?
will the cot class drop the TC wing on the back like nascar is doing?
will there be more than one cot class?
am i jumping the gun? wait don't answer that one!

Because looks do matter. Or else we'd all be racing these:
http://mediacdn.shopatron.com/media/mfg/137/product_image/thm/t350_6e2eeebb748fc350aab68b676406098a.jpg?11383067 44

There's a desire to differentiate visually from one class to the next. The Hobby and stock car racing in the real world, had 3 distinct body styles available, so it was decided we should try to use them all. That way each class had an identity beyond what motor was in the car.
There was alot of discussion about how to name classes at the start of this, and it was difficult not to step on people's toes and egos. In the NE where the cream of the crop run 13.5 because of smaller tracks, you wouldn't really call the class Sportsman Stock because it certainly wasn't contested at a Sportsman's level. Heck, @ BRL Nationals you had the Snowbirds open Mod Champ running the class, so Sportsman is a stretch. With the ESC changes, its apparent that a class's identity doesn't have to live in motor wind alone since its no longer the only thing determining the cars level of speed.
So now the hope is that from season to season, the speeds achieved by the cars running a Truck body are the same, COT speeds are the same, etc. It helps build a better understanding of the levels of performance inside and outside the hobby. Obviously, you hope to do that with a minimum of rules changes under the body from year to year as well.

We've seen at Snowbirds that 13.5 with open speedos can be run just fine with COT bodies. I think there's still some concern about how well they work on some of the tighter tracks in the NE, because I know they weren't excited about the change at the original 13.5 speeds. So I'd bet that will be an ongoing discussion on how that's worked out over the season when their year wraps up.

Just my two cents.

Trucks = 21.5
COT = 17.5
Nationwide = 13.5
Mod = 10.5

my 2 cents

I think the classes are just fine where they are now.
The way to keep racers is to NOT change every season, drivers just start to make gains, then you change it all over again...and you wounder why people quit~~~

Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: daytona beach,fl,usa
Posts: 7,787

Let's Talk Up Rule Changes For Next Season Right Here!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i stepped on steves retiring post (forgive me) so i felt a new thread for rules discussion should be fired up.

allan will you make rule changes (if needed) by yourself? a commitee or have all racers chime in and decide from there?We have always ask for input for promoters, track owners and other distinguised people of the hobby.

will we see speed decreases in some if not all classes for the fall season?
will the cot class drop the TC wing on the back like nascar is doing?
will there be more than one cot class?
not sure on these three yet,

am i jumping the gun? wait don't answer that one!u already knew the answer to this one. lol

Trucks = 21.5
COT = 17.5
Nationwide = 13.5
Mod = 10.5

my 2 cents


B - I - N - G - O

I think the classes are just fine where they are now.
The way to keep racers is to NOT change every season, drivers just start to make gains, then you change it all over again...and you wounder why people quit~~~
I think we all agree that you don't want to change stuff all over again, but I think we have different ideas as to what is included in "stuff."

Is class speed included?
Are ESC rules included?
Is ESC programming included?
Are Bodies included?
Are motor requirements included?
Etc.

You can't keep them all the same, so you have to prioritize.

Alan's done a great job taking everybody's feedback into consideration, and I'm sure he'll continue to as the rules for next year take shape.

B - I - N - G - O

i agree with jason... then you guys will still have trucks and cots...

but just like this year, i'll run what i have to run and hope ozzy can paint the ugliness out of the body :D

keep the classes/bodies, open the speedo's, and lets race!

Yeah and open up the esc's

keep the classes/bodies, open the speedo's, and lets race!

Ya, as easy as it sounds, there will always be someone that wants to :cry: about something!

I just wish it was that easy too!
You know they can only try organize classes somehow to keep up with manufactures products. I bet if some racers would race for the fun of it, there will not be as much critical talk going on. Everybody knows that when new stuff comes out, some has to run right out and get it, and then the racer say this is all I got so I can't race. I know because I've seen it alot. I don't understand why people wants to down TOUR so much, ROAR charged alot for the race, membership fees and yearly membership and I forget whatever eles. My take is, TOUR is volunteers that step up to organize some kind of rule platform for pancar oval, not trying to charge anybody anything. I thought that you can adapt the rule package, all or some to your track, in efforts to get them close from track to track. Back to ROAR, I remember back in 2002, I had to purchase a membership just to race in that one race. Now looking back, I'm thankful that I don't have to do that! As far as I'm concerned, TOUR ONLY WANTS TO HELP! :cool:

The classes are too fast with the old speedos, let alone the new one.

For perspective:
2004 Carpet Nats at Trackside
Open Mod TQ 56 4:00
19T TQ 52 4:00

2010 BRL Finals at Trackside (with limited speedos)
10.5 TQ 56 4:04
13.5 TQ 52 4:01

So with the new speedos it would put 13.5 about halfway in between what 19T and open mod was in 2004. Then on top of that we now have lighter cars, less leftside weight and need to start tires at 2.12 (at the biggest) to be fast.

I agree that there has been too much change and honestly we screwed up some really good things some regions had going before this year. That being said, cars that are way too fast and a set of tires each race day is not helping the turnouts.

Pat- That's pretty wild. I had no idea we were really going THAT much faster!

Hey Pat, was Trackside an odorless track back then too?

Can we set up a rule about katf1sh posting so much?:D

Hey Pat, was Trackside an odorless track back then too?
Definitely not as they still had Snackside.:tongue:
dk

and i thought my whining and complaining about it all season would have been in vain!!!

The classes are too fast with the old speedos, let alone the new one.

For perspective:
2004 Carpet Nats at Trackside
Open Mod TQ 56 4:00
19T TQ 52 4:00

2010 BRL Finals at Trackside (with limited speedos)
10.5 TQ 56 4:04
13.5 TQ 52 4:01

So with the new speedos it would put 13.5 about halfway in between what 19T and open mod was in 2004. Then on top of that we now have lighter cars, less leftside weight and need to start tires at 2.12 (at the biggest) to be fast.

I agree that there has been too much change and honestly we screwed up some really good things some regions had going before this year. That being said, cars that are way too fast and a set of tires each race day is not helping the turnouts.
pat your are dead nutz! will anyone listen?:o

I believe the speeds are right were they need to be and the racing is pretty good (at least on bigger tracks). Sportsman trucks for sure needs the limited timing rule to remain, mainly to allow the use of older speedos and a place to sell off your old euipment to newer racers too. Batteries might need to be tweaked to follow Roar rules and their approvals, to create some consistency between road and oval. I think a year of the same would be great to help build the racing back up and give racers some piece of mind. I like the COT the way it is now and mainly again to keep things consistant. And the handling with a spoiler could shake it up too much maybe....

My .02
Trucks 17.5 w/ spec tires
Busch 13.5
Cup 10.5
Mod - open motor.

All open speedo's. all 1s

That would be 3 main classes, and one hero class. The COT bodies will be relics soon.

There is a lot of guys that I race with that won't go to a limited speedo race.
The speedo rules just aren't fair anyway. I still have a gtb on the shelf, but they are old technology. When is the last time someone went to a national event with a 3 yr old speedo in their car?

When is the last time someone went to a national event with a 3 yr old speedo in their car?

This is a great point.

The real problem though is that the hobby is hurting on a local level because a guy can't be competitive enough to have fun with an older speedo. I've seen several sportsman classes become extinct because there are a few who dominate the class and average joe has to figure out whether he wants to spend $1000 to compete in a "beginner" class or just fork over $300 and be instantly competitive in short course.

I hear a lot of big talk at tracks all around the country about how the advanced drivers are helping the beginners by selling off their equipment to help the new guy get into the hobby cheap with good equipment. What I see however, are guys running 10.5 and 13.5 at BRL events and then going back to their home track and running 17.5.

Tour also needs to continue to hold the manufacturers to the fire on when they release new products. If a company like SMC decides to discontinue a product mid season in order to promote their latest and greatest product, TOUR needs to tell them that they will have to sit the remainder of the year as a battery provider. Maybe TOUR needs 2 manufacturers for each category that way if one doesn't abide by the rules, the other will be able to keep up with demand?

The limited rule isn't going to work for the long term. It becaomes a tech nightmare trying to check every speed control. My local track had a great truck class going until guys decided to cheat, and instead of doing anything about it, the track opened up the speedo rule and they lost alot of the guys who had come back to RC. Really all you can do is go 21.5 and open up the speedo rule, or impliment a spec speedo rule. Honestly, 21.5 is the better alternative... There are plenty of them being used as paper weights. It's cheaper to buy a used 21.5 vs buying another speedo.

I believe the speeds are right were they need to be and the racing is pretty good (at least on bigger tracks). Sportsman trucks for sure needs the limited timing rule to remain, mainly to allow the use of older speedos and a place to sell off your old euipment to newer racers too. Batteries might need to be tweaked to follow Roar rules and their approvals, to create some consistency between road and oval. I think a year of the same would be great to help build the racing back up and give racers some piece of mind. I like the COT the way it is now and mainly again to keep things consistant. And the handling with a spoiler could shake it up too much maybe....

I agree Mike ....... staying consistent will do more good then harm for sure..... some of the classes are faster now then they were intended due to technology i.e faster esc's. 10.5 is as fast as I need to go :p. I know it is early WAY before the official TOUR indoor season and rules come out, but a good discussion of concerns and suggestions is never too early imho. This is to start talking about things that you'd like to see added, changed or keep the same etc in the fall when TOUR releases its rules again, As far as im concerned I dont see a need for anything to be changed in the immediate future. The ultimate goal is to keep racers happy and coming to the track, that we ALL agree on.:thumbsup:

The worry with 21.5 motors is they become more labor intensive to wind. Also, the more wire involved the larger the tolerance seems to be on resistance, the wider the spectrum of performance. You should hear Bob talk about how they have to assembly VTA's new 25.5 motors.
Also, with updatable speedo's becoming standard you also have less reselling of old equipment going on.

I really think the Sportsman Truck class should be black box speedos, that are just plug and play. The Havok1s is a great deal, doesn't require a booster or reciever pack, and can be had under $100. It's also plenty competitive with the current limited speedo rules. It'd be nice if more manufacturers had something like that in their lineup.

In the end, its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, though (21.5 vs. spec-ESC).

pat your are dead nutz! will anyone listen?:o

LOL do they ever? :)

I think if those of us who have been doing this for many years look back we might see a pattern.

Faster = Bad
Costs more = Bad
Less Controls = Bad
More complicated = Bad

Unfortunately a lot of the people who others seem to follow push the exact opposite of those ideas and low and behold we continually have fewer guys.

We had it right for a few years here in the Midwest, but blew that up to follow the rest of the country down the drain, so to speak. Not that I blame anyone around here for that, I got sold on the idea going in to. Aside from opening up the equipment which I always knew was a bad move.

Hey Pat, was Trackside an odorless track back then too?

Well I was on TQ8. :-) I don't really think Paragon is a big game changer on lap times.

If somebody (hint hint Chuck) went back to a class where all the equipment that pertains to powering the car was spec (and cheap) that would be the one and only class I'd run next year. I have a feeling lots of people would follow suit, at least around this area. Just think it up early so we can plan.

Opening the speedos in all classes will only help tracks with tech. So to keep the speeds near what was started with before the large advancement with the speedos. The simple adjustment would be drop to the next motor. Going to a spec speedo for 17.5 will only force everyone in that class to buy a new speedo that will be only good for that class, that will surely kill the class.

Open esc
21.5 trucks
17.5 cot
13.5 nationwide
10.5 the new mod?

THEY HAD 21.5 JUST THE SAME AS IT WAS LAST YEAR BUT NO BODY RAN IT. I THINK THAT THE MOST THAT ENTERED WAS 14 AT OMAHA :confused:

That's because most of us got sold on these new classes and Tour thing. I don't think it has panned out that well. I don't think we'll go back to 21.5, so it's a moot point anyway. Honestly most of us are lemmings.

Slow, cheap, less complicated and controlled equipment. Those things would be the keys.

Luckily since we didn't bandwagon jump onto new speedos we can still switch back to a spec speedo since we'll have to buy new ones this fall one way or another.

What needs to happen is drivers only allowed to enter 1-1/10th scale class, this would force the drivers to build a 1/12th scale car for a 2nd class!

Guys running 2-3 classes are the only reason there are any "big" races still left. What do we have, like 50-60 actual people (not entries) at any race.

Agreed that we don't need 4 classes though.

THEY HAD 21.5 JUST THE SAME AS IT WAS LAST YEAR BUT NO BODY RAN IT. I THINK THAT THE MOST THAT ENTERED WAS 14 AT OMAHA :confused:

Your talking about 21.5 2 cell, this is 21.5 1 cell in the sportsman class. big difference

i still feel these rules are based on bigger tracks...

i also don't like how certain battery manufacturers got approvals and didnt have their batteries available till the season was half over. same for the motor rules. i'm more interested in seeing that stuff get fixed than body rules.

I would just like to show up and race. If everyone has the right motor and battery, if you get beaten that should be nobody's fault but your own. If that's because you didn't hit the ESC setup, well that's the same as not finding the right rollout or missing the chassis setup. Still your own fault. When did this thing quit being RACING and start becoming youth soccer? Everybody is NOT a winner in racing.

I do however agree that a step back should be in order.
21.5 open trucks or 17.5 limited trucks for sportsman class, 17.5 open COT for Stock, 13.5 open w/nationwide body & no goofy wings for Pro Stock, and 10.5 with goofy wings for a solid driveable mod class.

Stock doesn't NEED to be extremely slow. At the same time, Mod doesn't need to be uncontrollably fast! Why should we bother with a class that only about 10 people can race correctly when we could have a much larger, more competitive mod class? (10.5 open).

Anyway, what happens happens. Not gonna cry about it and say "i'm parking my cars if this or that happens." Pick a class that suits your speed and fun factor, show up, race, and have a good time!

Matt

How do you figure Cory? if your saying 21.5 is too fast for your track I have to wonder why? I have run up to 10.5 on a 100' track and have had no issues. I think track configuration has more to do with it. 21.5 is slow enough it would work anywhere

I think Cory's comment pertains more to Puf19 and Mike Boylan's comments. What works at Snowbirds and tracks of similar size isn't necessarily great at the many "bullrings" in the northeast, whether you can wheel a fast class on it or not.

Trucks = 21.5
COT = 17.5
COT = 13.5
COT= 10.5


Give all COT classes the option of running the WING "as it is now" or running just the Spoiler!!!!!!






Nationwide body is a cot body!!!! And they are not in production by any body Company.


I don't think we need 4 classes, but thats fine I guess!


What needs to happen is drivers only allowed to enter 1-1/10th scale class, this would force the drivers to build a 1/12th scale car for a 2nd class!

a nationwide body (thd,chd, charger etc) isnt a COT body. not sure what the second part means LOL

21.5 spec truck closed speedo
17.5 cot open speedo
13.5 nationwide open speedo
10.5 mod nationwide open speedo

and add 2 oz to all classes

I don't necessarily think that people are driving the cars and saying to themselves "oh my god this is crazy fast", but that is because we all just get used to going gradually faster and faster and faster. It's a matter of perspective.

I do think though there are a lot of guys (myself included) who have begun asking themselves why can't I run good lines anymore, why can't I make my car work, why do my tires last 1 race day at best, why is this so frustrating? etc etc I think the answer is the cars are monumentally too fast. If you race at a track that has been around for many years in the same configuration think back to the number of laps you used to run in "stock". I bet the current "stock equivalent" class at your track is now 6 laps faster. Look at the classes that everyone is quitting oval pan cars to go run, they are SLOW SLOW SLOW. In comparison at least.

Now couple this with the fact that 1 cell has obsoleted all but two cars and raised our tire bills a ton and we obviously have problems. Dropping down one motor is not going to do anything.

We can all sit here and say things like just have fun, not everyone wins, quit whining etc etc. and I do more or less agree with those sentiments, but saying those things isn't going to bring more bodies out to the race track. Too many people are finding they actually do have fun when they sell their pan cars and switch to DO or those Slash things.

Dirt oval still has crazy esc's, their cars are tons more expensive, and not one class is even close to slow. I'll agree with you on Slashes though.

Stock doesn't NEED to be extremely slow. At the same time, Mod doesn't need to be uncontrollably fast! Why should we bother with a class that only about 10 people can race correctly when we could have a much larger, more competitive mod class? (10.5 open).

Anyway, what happens happens. Not gonna cry about it and say "i'm parking my cars if this or that happens." Pick a class that suits your speed and fun factor, show up, race, and have a good time!

Matt[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on this. I've been running 17.5 open cot in Greeneville, and I love it. It's got some speed and I can concentrate on setup and control, and it's not burning the tires off!:thumbsup:

21.5 closed speedo you will need like one turn marshal for the whole race and he will out run the car on foot before it wrecks. Must open speedo rule and run 21.5 or 17.5 truck becuase ppl will cheat locally, there is no if and or butts (tm) about it. And local tracks dont have the staff most of the time to tech every truck. And I mostly run on asphalt where spec tires are crap. Just run whatever tire you want. The price isnt much differnt and its easier to have the better guys help with setups if eveyone is running around the same tire.

so my 2 cents for truck is

21.5 or 17.5
1 cell
open speedo
open tire
open battery.
and that will be as close to 4 cell stock from back in the day as you can get.

this is the class i will be running so thats really all i want to comment on. I dont run COT 13.5 or 10.5 and if you run that class speak up.

again just my 2 cents.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

For you guys that are so concerned about teching limited esc's, I would really like to know what your tech procedure is for batteries and motors. You must be splitting packs apart every race day or cycling them and checking rotor size and inductance constantly, right? Point is you (probobly) don't tech those, but are concerned about esc's.

Tekin is the only esc you need to check and if you can't tell when someone has v203 in then you got a serious problem. It take's like 10 seconds to tech. No need to check the other esc's as the settings don't matter. Mamba is junk in limited so if someone is competitive, then it's in cheat mode.

We ONLY run limited esc's here in Plattsburgh, NY and have been getting our biggest turnouts EVER. There were 38 cars in 17.5 at the last trophy race. TQ was an LRP, 2nd-GTB, 3rd-Tekin. 13.5 had a mix of esc's also.

Nothing against open esc's, I run both. We need open esc's to keep (some) veterans entertained. I just feel there is a place for limited esc's (in the slowest tour class).

I think Cory's comment pertains more to Puf19 and Mike Boylan's comments. What works at Snowbirds and tracks of similar size isn't necessarily great at the many "bullrings" in the northeast, whether you can wheel a fast class on it or not.

kinda but not really lol... my comment was meant toward people thinking 13.5 is slow or more of a beginner class. i've spent this year running limited 13.5 and open 13.5. them 2 classes alone are all i need. thats meant toward 100'-180' runline track. i ran 13.5 limited on a 180' track and thought it was kind of boring (i ended up in the b-main that day). i would have preferred open 13.5 that day. 13.5 limited on a 160' runline track was borderline boring. i have no interest in open 10.5.... none.

17.5 limited cot has been pretty good in the NE... better turnouts than 13.5 limited or open combined.

shoulda just made a long story short.... slow the classes down with motors and allow the speedos.

maybe i'm wrong... the speedo war needs to end and that seems to be the only way. teching has really sucked this year.

I agree 100%I don't necessarily think that people are driving the cars and saying to themselves "oh my god this is crazy fast", but that is because we all just get used to going gradually faster and faster and faster. It's a matter of perspective.

I do think though there are a lot of guys (myself included) who have begun asking themselves why can't I run good lines anymore, why can't I make my car work, why do my tires last 1 race day at best, why is this so frustrating? etc etc I think the answer is the cars are monumentally too fast. If you race at a track that has been around for many years in the same configuration think back to the number of laps you used to run in "stock". I bet the current "stock equivalent" class at your track is now 6 laps faster. Look at the classes that everyone is quitting oval pan cars to go run, they are SLOW SLOW SLOW. In comparison at least.

Now couple this with the fact that 1 cell has obsoleted all but two cars and raised our tire bills a ton and we obviously have problems. Dropping down one motor is not going to do anything.

We can all sit here and say things like just have fun, not everyone wins, quit whining etc etc. and I do more or less agree with those sentiments, but saying those things isn't going to bring more bodies out to the race track. Too many people are finding they actually do have fun when they sell their pan cars and switch to DO or those Slash things.

Oh my!!!!!!!!!!!! it look like a can of worms here Just as I thought I had had great idea at our local track and starting a 21.5 NNS bodied class this starts up all of us at our track after some talking we went to TOUR rules. This make alot of sence, but since we started talking about our 21.5 class this throws a monkey wrench into everything.

Jimmy Simons 13

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.

/////
Jake

Opening the speedos in all classes will only help tracks with tech. So to keep the speeds near what was started with before the large advancement with the speedos. The simple adjustment would be drop to the next motor. Going to a spec speedo for 17.5 will only force everyone in that class to buy a new speedo that will be only good for that class, that will surely kill the class.

Open esc
21.5 trucks
17.5 cot
13.5 nationwide
10.5 the new mod?

It hasn't in the midwest. in fact it was the biggest class in Omaha last weekend. Keep the limited speed control in the truck class, and spec tires. No more chasing the tire, same for everyone and one set for the whole season. Havock 1cell, new speedo and inexpensive. and no advancement.

Andy

True, but I was thinking more long term for the new racers that enter the 17.5 truck class. By letting them purchase an esc that they can use at the next level as they improve which would be more cost effective for a racer that say starts in 21.5 truck with an open speedo can move into the 17.5 cot class without buying a second esc.It hasn't in the midwest. in fact it was the biggest class in Omaha last weekend. Keep the limited speed control in the truck class, and spec tires. No more chasing the tire, same for everyone and one set for the whole season. Havock 1cell, new speedo and inexpensive. and no advancement.

Andy

All the talk so far has been about class tweeks which can be done over the summer with not to much trouble.

One thing that might be addressed is weight. As the racing has progressed we've gone from 6 cell to 4 cell, 4 cell to 2 cell lipo, 2 cell lipo to 1 cell lipo. Each time the weight of the car got lighter and lighter, but all the weight was lost on the left side. Why not add a little weight back to the cars, just a couple ounces might be the trick to get the cars to handle a little better and also tire wear should improve also.

There's never been a maximum weight; you can throw some lead on it today if you wanted to.