Couldn't have said it better Pat. What you're seeing here is the maturation of the oval RC racer. When the economy of the real world becomes more necessary than the ability to win at all costs we hit a crossroads. For some of us that happens when jobs change...or disappear altogether. For others it's marriage, for some like myself it's a growing family.
I fit into Pat's description 110%. I like racing on the National level, but time, money and ego have limited me to be less than I used to be and, quite honestly, I had a tough time when that first happened. I think the reason that I'm willing and OK with running 13.5 COT/BRL rules is that it IS less maintenance and money. To run with the best(of what's left) of the traveling big dogs, you better have resources that are expendable....both time and money.
Personally, I'm done worrying about a National series. My local track follows BRL rules as it only sees 5 or less guys attending National events anyway. The BRL has always looked after the racer in the Midwest and allows the "mid-major" style racer like Pat to compete.
For guys like myself, I never, ever would have entertained the thought of running a "big race" without a local track to practice at and get better. I've been guilty in the past (as others are) of using every visit at the home track as a test session for the next big race. In reality, I missed a lot of good club shows by looking too far down the road and not appreciating or enjoying what I had.
Take a look at your club track....if it has less than 20 guys and the only classes you have are the uber-fast ones with multi time N.C. lifers there, it won't be around for long. Guys need to know that you don't always have to ascend to the mod ranks to be happy. Not to single him out, but I haven't seen Danny B. with a smile on his face in a couple years at an oval track now that he only runs mod. He's a great racer with tireless devotion and National titles to his credit.
Hopefully some of us will realize that being "right" and pounding our chests to get what we want individually will get you a heat with 2 other guys chasing the track record every week and the tracks ultimate demise.

Please...listen to a guy like Bob Wright...he's what happens when people ignore the signs and continue with blinders on.

dk

Who remembers the Trinity Spec kits you could buy? Then there was 4 cell stock which was the best racing ever. The spec cars were close to speed but cost half as much to get on the track ( it all came in one kit) . It will be hard but there should be 2 classes for slower speeds. As far as buying used stuff from other guys.. how long will that last,eventually it will all get used up. And what if he/she cant find any used stuff thats any good will he/she not be allowed to race with a mamba cheat mode off?

A class should not be made to rely on buying used stuff. maybe i missed where running a new esc was ok but i saw buy old stuff from racers and think that if they want new they should have that option. I mean a Mamba is around 100 dollars. I think most ppl quit or dont want to get into oval is because its f-in hard and they dont want the hassel. money is probly 2nd or 3 rd on the list of why its dieing. I took a three year break and am just coming back and was shocked at the speeds we are running now. I ran 4 cell stock back in the day and loved it. Most ppl I talked to says everything was fine until the Mamba came out and it all went to crap again. If it was deemed illegal when released then would we still be having this talk???

heavier cars
I think this would help the racing the most. Make the cars weight 42 oz. again that way we have to add weight to the cars and you can add it to the left side and make the cars drive better. Plus it would help on the right side tire wear. I went threw more right side tires this year then I ever have in the past. Just my 2 cents.

Jason

So now I would have to add 8 oz (currently add 2oz to make 36) to my car to make weight? Not happening. As a new racer this year, I ran 2 cell one night and broke so much stuff, I sold it all off. Really like the one cell better. I break less since its lighter and tire wear has not been an issue at 13.5 speeds. Now our 13.5 is running what 21.5 2S ran at the beginning of the season.

John

I'm not saying 42 oz is the magical number but I think we need to make the cars heavier. If we don't do something oval racing will die.

lol, I don't think your gonna save oval by piling 8 ounces on, but maybe.

You should try adding the weight and see how it goes. I find it hard to believe you will wear tires less or that you will be any closer to the front guys, but if you are then I will pile 8 oz. on my car and give it a try.

Jake what kind of car you run? simkins and koback too? 10L's? lol just wondering. what class and kind of carpet?

here's my bi-weekly reminder of how many cars we're getting here. no point in saying what the rules are, no one cares.

There is no maximum weight rule so add all the lead you want if you think it will make your car work better.

lol, I don't think your gonna save oval by piling 8 ounces on, but maybe.

You should try adding the weight and see how it goes. I find it hard to believe you will wear tires less or that you will be any closer to the front guys, but if you are then I will pile 8 oz. on my car and give it a try.

Jake what kind of car you run? simkins and koback too? 10L's? lol just wondering. what class and kind of carpet?

here's my bi-weekly reminder of how many cars we're getting here. no point in saying what the rules are, no one cares.I ran KSG Gen 3 in 10.5 and 13.5 cot this past winter at the BRL races on CRC carpet. And I'm not saying the weight alone will save oval but if we don't slow the cars down to where the beginner can drive them and have fun they won't stay with it and switch to dirt oval or offroad. And by the way your lucky to have that many racers bi-weekly. I travel 3 hours to race in kc with about 5 to 8 guys and half of them travel 3 hours aswell.

I think this would help the racing the most. Make the cars weight 42 oz. again that way we have to add weight to the cars and you can add it to the left side and make the cars drive better. Plus it would help on the right side tire wear. I went threw more right side tires this year then I ever have in the past. Just my 2 cents.

Jason

I think you gona like the AP style pod and or a mono ball pod car it takes care of this.

My home made mono ball gen3 is a diffrent car now it does not need all the left side weight nore does it lift the rear left :thumbsup:

Jake

I think you gona like the AP style pod and or a mono ball pod car it takes care of this.

My home made mono ball gen3 is a diffrent car now it does not need all the left side weight nore does it lift the rear left :thumbsup:

JakeI won't be running the AP pod at first.:thumbsup:

I don't know why people keep saying that we need to slow the cars down. We always find a way to go just as fast as the previous rules. We've had 3 years of trying to go slower, and wer are running faster than ever now. There is slower classes. Tom's track has 38 in 17.5 thats really good. There's not much slower than 17.5 1s if thats what that is. If they are going to put 21.5 1 cell in the cars that will be so slow that I wonder if that will kill it.

I saw 17.5 mamba 1 cell at our track last week. That really could catch on.

10.5 mamba 1 cell is the most fun I've had in years of racing oval. Some people at my track are starting to say it's too fast. Well, there's always those pesky slower classes that they can enter. I never raced open mod, but I wish I knew what I was missing back then.

I'll add my .02 to this, not that it matters, lol. First off let me say I think TOUR, Steve, Alan, and everyone else involved has done a great job getting things going in the right direction here are my suggestions...

1. Sometimes less is more, and by less, I mean rules. With todays economy everyone, even big dogs, are being frugal. To have a rule to limit a speed control to one that cost 170 over one that costs 110 is stupid. Yes, mambas were faster, but if I wanted to start racing, and found out I had to pay 170 because of a rule and limit myself when I could have more potential power for less money, I'd laugh and walk away.
2. mobility. I understand different body styles breaks classes up visually, which is nice for spectators, but lets stop kidding ourselves, our hobby doesn't get that many spectators, and they can tell a difference in classes because they can see a speed difference. Adding a body rule makes it harder for people to move up or down between classes because it is one more thing to have to buy.
3. Somewhere along the way this segment of R/c became way to fragmented and regionalized, and there is going to be no way to ever make everyone happy. The old days people are talking about of stock and mod are long gone and will never come back. Blame whatever you want, won't change that. Continuing to run regional classes, while some feel promotes the hobbyt because it keeps a track open, in the long run hurts it. A local track around here used to have 15-16 heats every night, 10 of them being pan cars. They switched to a spec style class, gained 5 new racers right away. Now that the class at that track was different from everyone else, in 2 years they now have 1-2 heats of pan cars, so did creating a regional class really help the hobby shop when they are effectively prohibbiting their patrons from being able to run anywhere else?

All that being said, here is what I feel is a step in the right direction:
Batteries, motors, speed controls approved twice a year, once in Jan in time for snowbirds and the outdoor season, once in july to give guys time to stock up for carpet season.
No body rule, give guys options, nationwide bodies are easier to drive, period
4 classes:
17.5
13.5
10.5
7.5
Now if someone normally runs 13.5 becuase it's all their normal track can handle and goes to a bigger track and wants to run 10.5, all you have to do is change motor or stator and go. A newbie decides he wants to get more serious and move up a class. All knowledge and equipment move up with him, all he needs is a new motor or stator.

We are sometimes our own worst enemy with specing everything to the "n"th degree and not just letting guys race. I have met one new person that has started this and expected to be good at it out of the box, and we have seen several new people this year. spec this, spec that, now if someone wants to run someplace differnt or some differnt class they are stuck.

Weight is fine where it is, less weight = less wear on equipment and easier to drive.

Just my .02, flame away, lol.

Here's 2 things about whatever rules are decided;

1) Cover everything now so that new equipment can not come into play until next season and STICK WITH IT!!!!!!

2) There is no cheap way out in this type of racing... none of us do it because it's cheap! We do it because it's what we want to do. So we should stop trying to build a class around cheap and let tack owners offer their own alternatives like mini coopers or legends. This is pan car oval and cheap is out the window.

The thing that drives people away from oval is the guy who's been racing for years that races in the beginner class and then bitches at a new guy who bumps into him while he's own his "TQ" run, or promoters that wont grow a sack and deal with that kind of BS. It's about people! That's what helps new guys keep coming back and decide to spend more money, not the speed of the car or how affordable it is.

Glad I got that off of my chest.

Bill

The thing that drives people away from oval is the guy who's been racing for years that races in the beginner class and then bitches at a new guy who bumps into him while he's own his "TQ" run, or promoters that wont grow a sack and deal with that kind of BS. It's about people! That's what helps new guys keep coming back and decide to spend more money, not the speed of the car or how affordable it is.

Glad I got that off of my chest.

Bill[/QUOTE]

We have a similar problem at our track............too many cherry pickers.

here is what I feel is a step in the right direction:
Batteries, motors, speed controls approved twice a year, once in Jan in time for snowbirds and the outdoor season, once in july to give guys time to stock up for carpet season.
No body rule, give guys options, nationwide bodies are easier to drive, period
4 classes:
17.5
13.5
10.5
7.5
Now if someone normally runs 13.5 becuase it's all their normal track can handle and goes to a bigger track and wants to run 10.5, all you have to do is change motor or stator and go. A newbie decides he wants to get more serious and move up a class. All knowledge and equipment move up with him, all he needs is a new motor or stator.

We are sometimes our own worst enemy with specing everything to the "n"th degree and not just letting guys race. I have met one new person that has started this and expected to be good at it out of the box, and we have seen several new people this year. spec this, spec that, now if someone wants to run someplace differnt or some differnt class they are stuck.

Weight is fine where it is, less weight = less wear on equipment and easier to drive.



+1 :thumbsup:......... I agree with that Jeff.

So in the middle of the carpet season (Jan) I will have to buy a new esc?

Some of it is about the money isn't it Bill?
I mean it's obvious that its not cheap to "buy into" pan car racing, but to get hit later with a bill for hundreds more to keep up with the latest electronics mid season can be discouraging.
Then when the reality hits that you've got to cut your new tires down ALOT to make it go fast can be discouraging.
Only to find out that you must continue to buy tires and KEEP cutting them down to be somewhat up to speed can be discouraging.
Oh yeah, 3 manufactureres are releasing new products that are better. This could be discouraging to racers with new equipment right?

My point is that cost control could help keep new, intermediate, and seasoned veterans that can be discouraged by cost and cost alone. We certainly can't afford to lose one single racer. Not one.

No matter what I will continue to race, and support TOUR. I have a broad spectrum of brushless winds, and speed controls. I am thinking of the Big Picture, and how I would love to have three times the competition that we have now in 5 years. I am willing to mark the back of the E main. Whatever it takes. I'll suffer through the growing pains, as I know many others will also, if it means a better tomorrow.





This isn't a flame on you Bill. I know how hard you worked on the timing limit in the truck class, and we are on the same side of this.

Shouldn't we be focussed on things that would encourage racers? Shouldn't we be trying to keep recruiting recers new and old to migrate to Oval racing? Shouldn't we try to make every attempt to facilitate a move from Slash racing to Oval vs. Dirt Oval? Money is part of it, along with cherry picking, bad driver stand etiquette, tire size, speedos, ect., ect., ect.
We're all guilty, but we have made progress. I mean look at what the TOUR and the BRL has accomplished this year alone. We are closer to being "unified" than we've been in a long time. The answer is simple. Don't make huge changes to the rules right now. Pool our resources and figure out what will help Oval as a whole and go with that. Back up the motors one wind, spec a speed control or a series of static timing speed controls for the truck class, or spec tires for more classes. Tweak what we have for the next season, and let's keep the ball rolling. I can only imagine how this would have turned out had it not been for the whole "speedo deal."

Why don't we take this oppurtunity to throw out ideas that will help grow this segment of the Sport as a whole, and not what will serve our own agenda.

Forget the body rule changes, as we have bigger fish to fry. maybe next year. Let's stay positive and put everything on the table, sort it out, and set it in stone for the season.
Here are my ideas:
1) speeds for the sportsman/entry level 17.5 class is too fast with the open speedo. Spec a speedo, any speedo. Don't make it tech intensive at all.
2) too many classes. Cut the classes down to three + one spot for open mod, 10.5, or some other exhibition class.
3) Keep the 4000 25c SMC pack for the trucks as it has takes the battery questions out of the equation.
4) Fix the tire issue in the 13.5 class/classes. Maybe the WGT tires? I dunno. Maybe if you need more grip we'll leave the tires bigger? Don't know enough about this one.

These rules should be used at the local tracks discretion. There is no one size fits all, but it would make it easier to tour neighboring tracks, and enjoy their facilities as well. My only agenda is to help maintain or grow the sport, as I have many different winds, speedos, and batteries. I don't mind spending money, as long as I can get some continued use out of the products I spend it on.

On dealing with tire size, specing a larger tire doesnt fix the problem. Spec tires dont fix it either. In the trucks at the birds everyone figured out that smaller was better so everyone was running rims with fuzz if they wanted to go fast.
If you had set a minimum tire size of say 2.2, everyone would have cut the tires to 2.2 and then once they wear beyond that they would have to be replaced. You will still have one or two run tires.
I hate to say it but spec racing and cheap do not always go together. Like specing a ESC, how does that make it cheaper for a guy already in the hobby, if you dont already own that ESC you have to go buy a new one. If your local track allows Mamba or 203 and the spec ESC is a novak no timing, you have to buy an ESC to go race elseware. I am all for a class that allows lower cost equipment to compete, but locking out equipment people already own doesnt help retain racers.

John

The bottom line is, if you think the class you are in is too fast with the open speedo's
then YOU drop down to a slower class, dont change the class that we all excepted to run and all bought motors/bodys/batts for. 13.5 cot is NOT a beginner class, 17.5 truck is! I really can not beleive that racers are complainning that there race car is going to fast! WFT over~!

A new driver knows noting about a calss being to fast, they know IF they want to join in on the action or not then will see if an entry class is available.

Yes I agree we need new blood in the sport, but even more important is to keep the ones we have now! The best way to do so is keeping the rules for the entire season
reguardless of what comes out mid season, this way even if jones goes out and buys one, it can not be used that season and no one else HAS to go buy one.
belive it or not we the racers control what sells and what does not.

Also IF you run 10.5/13.5 cot, you should NOT be allowed to run 17.5 truck leave this for the new drivers.
Nick

Some of it is about the money isn't it Bill?
I mean it's obvious that its not cheap to "buy into" pan car racing, but to get hit later with a bill for hundreds more to keep up with the latest electronics mid season can be discouraging.
Then when the reality hits that you've got to cut your new tires down ALOT to make it go fast can be discouraging.
Only to find out that you must continue to buy tires and KEEP cutting them down to be somewhat up to speed can be discouraging.
Oh yeah, 3 manufactureres are releasing new products that are better. This could be discouraging to racers with new equipment right?

My point is that cost control could help keep new, intermediate, and seasoned veterans that can be discouraged by cost and cost alone. We certainly can't afford to lose one single racer. Not one.

No matter what I will continue to race, and support TOUR. I have a broad spectrum of brushless winds, and speed controls. I am thinking of the Big Picture, and how I would love to have three times the competition that we have now in 5 years. I am willing to mark the back of the E main. Whatever it takes. I'll suffer through the growing pains, as I know many others will also, if it means a better tomorrow.





This isn't a flame on you Bill. I know how hard you worked on the timing limit in the truck class, and we are on the same side of this.

No problem dude, that's why my first point was to determine what we are going to run and then don't allow anything new to screw it up mid season. That did more to damage TOUR and oval than not having consistent classes from track to track.

Here's my vote:

21.5 trucks - green BSR specs
17.5 COT Only
13.5 Open Body (Means you can run COT or whatever)
10.5 Open Body
7.5 Open Mod for big races

All classes have open ESC's and batteries.

If you want to cost control then 17.5 truck with spec ESC and motor and BSR green tires. The speeds would probably be about the same as 21.5 open ESC.

Bill

Shouldn't we be focused on things that would encourage racers?


Sounds like Hobby Talk needs to close down. Just a hunch, but I would think that Joe Racer gets fed up with the drama on here. (Although many don't know about these forums, some do read them) For instance, here you have a thread where you 1000 different options and everyone arguing what the best option is. That alone would be enough to scare away a new racer or a spec racer. Most new racers don't travel so let them run whatever their track wants to run. Doesn't have to be TOUR folks. Whatever works locally. I don't care what they run, It doesn't affect me, it's not my class.

Sometimes I see the effectiveness of these boards, but sometimes I don't. I know there are other factors to the decline of oval, but it has definitely seen a decline in the last several years and I wonder if it is direct correlation to the popularity of internet forums for oval. Go view some of the on-road boards and you see some negative, but often a tremendous amount of positive talk. We have pages of people bashing companies & arguing about rules.

If ZipZaps were fun on a large carpet oval, let them run it and those of us who run the faster classes should stay out of the argument. The time we should open our mouths about that class should be to help the guy get the most out of their ZipZap.

Let TOUR tweak the classes they have, they have been listening to the arguments for tweaks and against. Then let the new guys run one of those or run whatever they can (Slashes, Losi Sliders, or TYCO WalMart specials).

Jumping off my Soapbox. Let the character assassination commence.

I think that we have gotten a bit off track. Are we talking about rules for the big races or for club races. I think that there MAY(?) need to be GENERAL rules and EVENT rules. Most ppl will back off a bit so they can continue to race locally. (for those that dont, they should be shunned publicly). Tires, motors, speedos (open vs. spec), bodies. Who really cares.
Hobbyplex is my local track and yes, we use BRL rules for the most part. There we can race 21.5 2c, 13.5 1c w/ v203 and 10.5 1c and we are about the same speed, and havin a blast racin together. I do feel that 21.5 should go away (this is the class I have been racing this year), but changing the other classes is sure to destroy what we have all worked so hard to put together.

21.5 1c open esc, is sure to melt motors. The thinner wire used in these may not take the timing advancing and boost that is being put to motors at this time.

17.5 1c, esc?, keep it fair, tires? keep it spec. Size is based on what YOUR track deems as FAST, not what everyone tells you is fast. What works at your track may not be fast at mine. Body, COT or Truck racers choice.

13.5 1c, esc? open if ya want. tires? Spec three WGT, RF Spec (one softer, One WGT, One Harder) Body, run what ya want. It wont make a diff.

10.5 1c, Open, Open and Open.

Last but not least, Run What Ya Brung. Remember the days when you could bring a tranny car, set it down and race. That's what track need, THAT'S what will bring ppl back to us. None of this $500 dirt oval tranny car crap (I'm not against them, just not in this class). Let them bring and run what they have.

I get off the soap box now, but I have one last thing to add.
"What happened to HONOR."

Chad O

Sounds like Hobby Talk needs to close down. Just a hunch, but I would think that Joe Racer gets fed up with the drama on here. (Although many don't know about these forums, some do read them) For instance, here you have a thread where you 1000 different options and everyone arguing what the best option is. That alone would be enough to scare away a new racer or a spec racer. Most new racers don't travel so let them run whatever their track wants to run. Doesn't have to be TOUR folks. Whatever works locally. I don't care what they run, It doesn't affect me, it's not my class.

Sometimes I see the effectiveness of these boards, but sometimes I don't. I know there are other factors to the decline of oval, but it has definitely seen a decline in the last several years and I wonder if it is direct correlation to the popularity of internet forums for oval. Go view some of the on-road boards and you see some negative, but often a tremendous amount of positive talk. We have pages of people bashing companies & arguing about rules.

If ZipZaps were fun on a large carpet oval, let them run it and those of us who run the faster classes should stay out of the argument. The time we should open our mouths about that class should be to help the guy get the most out of their ZipZap.

Let TOUR tweak the classes they have, they have been listening to the arguments for tweaks and against. Then let the new guys run one of those or run whatever they can (Slashes, Losi Sliders, or TYCO WalMart specials).

Jumping off my Soapbox. Let the character assassination commence.

Well said Tommy!:thumbsup:

21.5 1c open esc, is sure to melt motors. The thinner wire used in these may not take the timing advancing and boost that is being put to motors at this time.



Huh? Thinner wire? When did they change that?

I ran an entire day with 21.5 and a mamba... Probably ran over 1000 laps and the motor never went over 120 and I had it geared as high as I could possibly go with full timing in the motor and speedo at one point...

Huh? Thinner wire? When did they change that?

I ran an entire day with 21.5 and a mamba... Probably ran over 1000 laps and the motor never went over 120 and I had it geared as high as I could possibly go with full timing in the motor and speedo at one point...

This is based off what I have heard. If this is wrong, then strike my comment from the record. :)

Chad O

Isn't it better to voice our ideas now? That gives everyone out there a chance to share their experiences as well as their opinions. Different local tracks are tweaking the rules already, and have been from the start. Let's hear from them what worked, what didn't, and more so details about their tracks bite, runline, and width so that TOUR can pull from this info.

Some may see this as arguing, but shouldn't. No personal attacks here. No demands here. Just racers offering up what they've seen, and what they would like to see. Sometimes we do leave out the thought process behind our wish list of classes. This really should be included so that people don't assume it is because it's what you have in your pitbox.

LOL! It is funny to see some grown up kids threaten to "take their ball and go home." Well either you're going to race next year or you're not. If it is because of a rule change that can benefit Oval as a whole and not just yourself, then the swap and sell forum on here seems to do well. Better yet, hang onto your stuff and let it all soak in, and bring your "ball back to the court." No hard feelings, we'd be glad to have you back.
As for me I'm gonna be at the track. No matter what. I love oval racing, and it just gets better when there are a hundred vs. ten at the track making laps on me. I'll give it my best though. Wish you all the best.
I would like to say again that the TOUR has helped stop the bleeding, and even bring racers back.

This is based off what I have heard. If this is wrong, then strike my comment from the record. :)

Chad O


this is what drives me nuts about public forums... ask questions before you go scaring other newbies into retirement with crazy accusations. your other post was crazy too... wgt tires on a 13.5 car with open speedo???? come on man.

Isn't it better to voice our ideas now?


Voice them. But don't you think it's a little daunting for Joe Racer to get on here and find 12 pages (in one week) of rules arguing mostly about his class? Add to that it's mostly people that don't run that class. I don't think I've seen any from my home track who runs the sportsman class on here, it's the rest of us internet jockeys who run other classes letting our fingers do the talking. These are the people it affects. So we're gonna change their class for them? That's my point. I think we ought to voice only opinions on classes we are running.

I understand everyone wants to "save oval" and get the new racer, but I can't see how this helps. Let the new racers/sportsman racers talk with TOUR and tweak their class if needed. The rest of us can talk about our classes, and honestly instead of complaining about what we don't like about our class, discuss what we do like.

For instance, I like that I didn't brake anything major in 10.5 this year. I like that it challenged me to be a better driver. I loved the close racing. I loved that Jody Miller and I went nose to tail for 2 and half minutes the other night until I clipped the ice and ran out of talent. I liked watching the sportsman truck guys beat and bang all night. Looked like fun. I watched Andy, Marty, and Talbot burn holes in the rug. It is fun to see driving talent like that. I enjoyed seeing the fun the sportsman guys are having. Loved seeing the 17.5 COT testing. Even thought of throwing a 21.5 in my car to see if the speeds were good with a mamba for the sportsman guys, but I wasn't asked and it's not my class but would have been happy to help if needed and asked.

So we all know what everyone didn't like about the classes this year already, so let's turn this thread around and maybe help TOUR out by telling them what we did like about the classes we ran. Maybe by seeing what we enjoyed, TOUR can work to make sure we continue with that enjoyment.

So I've already shared some of the things I enjoyed about racing this year, who wants to go next?

Thanks Tommy

Tommy Boy
While I am flattered that I have your attention, I think you are reading more into my posts than what is there. As for "Joe Racer," I'm his biggest fan.
I agree that we need to keep this positive. I too am embarrassed that some speak out about classes that they don't participate in. I agree that the leaders of the TOUR need to know what we like. We must also show some faith that they can sift through the bull and find a happy median. How can they make decisions without knowing the good and bad?

I don't like the dissention in Oval discussion either, but in a public forum others can shed some light on stuff that we may not have seen. Rather than a handful of guys sending Allan emails everyday pushing their own agenda. Let's get it all out there, let TOUR sift out the bull, then let the local tracks decide what's best for them.

When all of this is decided upon, and the rules are set, we can then all hold hands and sing "Kumbayah."

I think even after all of this, your not going to see much change. Probably open up the speedo in 17.5 and thats about it. Atleast this is what a little birdie told me...

69,

I'm not singling out your posts, you just happened to post in response. I just got to reading this stuff the other day and after spending the day Saturday at the track and watching the 17.5 guys have a ball, just thought to myself "who am I to tell them they need to do things the way I would do them." Just kinda change my perspective.

I am all for TOUR and think they are doing a good job and just have come to my own opinion that it's not TOUR's job to make a class for the new racers, it's the tracks. If it's a TOUR class, great. If not great. TOUR, I believe, is trying to unify the national level, the travelers, or the hardcore locals, not the hobby locals. I am not sure they can do both. Just my opinion. There is a place at the tracks for both, and I think tracks should go out of their way for those locals.

I think Allan knows the bad and think Steve did too. I'm betting that most phone calls Steve or Allan received weren't positive. I bet 70% or better were complainers or asking questions about something they didn't like. There are pages upon pages on this board alone on what's wrong with the rules, or the rules didn't cover this, or how dare TOUR do this or not do this. TOUR is well aware of the complaints and are smart enough to know that sweeping changes again would be foolish as well.

I am ready to sing anytime you are, lol. Oh, and I enjoy the fact you and I can have a civilized discussion. I think that can help too.

Here's what I liked about TOUR:

1) Felt like I was in a real race series and the championship points kept me on track with what I was going to run through the year.
2) Met some really great new people at our local track and at the major events that I attended.
3) Championship gave me a reason to stick with it all year long even through the ESC changes.
4) Had a blast following the HT drama as it unfolded concerning all of this stuff.
5) Allan Arrington and others from the TOUR board solicited and listened to what I had to say and what others had to say for that matter, which let's me know that we don't have some ivory tower leadership that doesn't care a thing about racers.
6) TOUR helped the track I race at weekly with a fully developed rule package that we ran all season long with only minor issues.
7) TOUR is willing to review and make changes where neccessary to make the racing better for all of us.

Just to name a few.
Bill

69,

I am ready to sing anytime you are, lol. Oh, and I enjoy the fact you and I can have a civilized discussion. I think that can help too.

Civilized discussion is what we really need to change. More of it! LOL! I am pretty sure we're on the same page. I agree that enough is enough when we are complaining about the same thing over and over. I just wish that everyone would speak up now, rather than after the season starts. After the season starts we should be talking about setup, or tire prep, and making the most of what we have. Thanks for the courtesy. I enjoyed the debate.

Civilized discussion is what we really need to change. More of it! LOL! I am pretty sure we're on the same page. I agree that enough is enough when we are complaining about the same thing over and over. I just wish that everyone would speak up now, rather than after the season starts. After the season starts we should be talking about setup, or tire prep, and making the most of what we have. Thanks for the courtesy. I enjoyed the debate.


I can go for that.

Ok guys,

I'm kinda new to this TOUR thing, but let me jump in here......LOL!!! Now that I am left with nothing but an opinion and a hotline to Allan, I can be a little more objective and less emotional. (If this post came up in Sept 09 I would have been nuts!!)

I'm not going to go into classes or pending decisions, I'm just going to reference a few principles that I learned and steer this conversation to something productive. Here it goes:


First, could someone please save me the time of reading 13 pages and summarize this for me. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. What I would like to see is if there is any concensus being drawn by the folks posting. In other words, if you took all of the 13 pages of helpful suggestions...does it come to a conclusion....or does the thread just contradict itself so that it goes nowhere. Another way to look at it.........YOU........pretend to be TOUR Director for a day. Leave your opinion COMPLETELY out of it.....and draw a conclusion from the suggestions given here.....and tell me the classes, rules, and specifics that you would come up with....THAT YOU COULD DEFEND IN A PUBLIC FORUM.......if this were all on your shoulders.
Just for fun......post your "complete unofficial TOUR package" like this....................reply with the "Title" as "TOUR Director for a Day - (your name)" Remember, the idea is to keep your opinions out of it. Just use the input you've seen on this post to guide your decision. You may not even agree with the format you come up with. Boy does that sound familiar.Let's see what happens!!

Steve

Ok guys,

I'm kinda new to this TOUR thing, but let me jump in here......LOL!!! Now that I am left with nothing but an opinion and a hotline to Allan, I can be a little more objective and less emotional. (If this post came up in Sept 09 I would have been nuts!!)

I'm not going to go into classes or pending decisions, I'm just going to reference a few principles that I learned and steer this conversation to something productive. Here it goes:


First, could someone please save me the time of reading 13 pages and summarize this for me. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. What I would like to see is if there is any concensus being drawn by the folks posting. In other words, if you took all of the 13 pages of helpful suggestions...does it come to a conclusion....or does the thread just contradict itself so that it goes nowhere. Another way to look at it.........YOU........pretend to be TOUR Director for a day. Leave your opinion COMPLETELY out of it.....and draw a conclusion from the suggestions given here.....and tell me the classes, rules, and specifics that you would come up with....THAT YOU COULD DEFEND IN A PUBLIC FORUM.......if this were all on your shoulders.
Just for fun......post your "complete unofficial TOUR package" like this....................reply with the "Title" as "TOUR Director for a Day - (your name)" Remember, the idea is to keep your opinions out of it. Just use the input you've seen on this post to guide your decision. You may not even agree with the format you come up with. Boy does that sound familiar.Let's see what happens!!

Steve

Nope, no agreement just the usual. We had a lengthy discussion in the middle pages about controlling cost for experienced racers. In other words having a class for all the guys who quit or are about too. Here is what I proposed.

"Expert Cost Controlled"

Speedo: Novak Havoc or GTB
I know some people have a problem with Novak, but this makes the most logistical sense with the number of old GTBs floating around. Also, the Havocs are cheap.

Motor: Novak 10.5
Again this just makes logisticalfinancial sense over other brands.

Tires: World GT

Body: Don't care.
I'm partial to the COTs as is, but I don't think the body affects the cost or quality of racing enough to be worth arguing over. So go with whatever.

Weight: 2lb 9oz.
Oh my god I'll have to put lead in my car, the sky is falling! I just wanted to say that to save the other people the trouble. Why have this? It will instantly make the old cars competitive again. I know somebody will say "I just set the track record with my old Pro 3", but the reality seems to be the cars with max potential need to have a >=.500" offset with the one cell 2lb 4oz. stuff. This would also allow us to go back to running tires larger.

Battery: SMC 25C 4000 pack. (if they arewill continue to make it)
Why? Basically we need to pick something that is not "race" oriented. I think most of us realize the battery manufacturers make incremental upgrades to their packs while keeping them in the same case with the same label. Thus forcing us to go out and buy new packs, or at least making us think we need to. If we pick something that they have no incentive to constantly tinker with it eliminates that problem.

I think this would be a really fun class and I'd run it in an instant if it were offered.



Aside from this addition do whatever with the other classes. Most seemed to be in favor of dropping one motor wind in each class and leaving the rest as is.

Of course what a lot of people failed to comprehend is if they don't want to run this new class they wouldn't have to and it doesn't affect the classes they have now.

Then the last few pages of the thread the usual thing happened. Anyone discussing anything different from the "norm" got shouted down for being negative and any useful discussion died.

The only changes to the current rules:

17.5 (newbee class) NO tekins/mambas or any pc programed speedo's, truck body, wgt tires.batt 40c.- (not sure how long 25c will be in production.)

13.5 cot open speedo's rest of the rules stay. If you run this class you may NOT run 17.5 truck.

10.5 same rules no change needed.(never here any complaints)

7.5 yep its a class, same rules no change.

with just these changes no one has to learn something new all over again, or spend $ just to adhere to the new classes.

Now no matter what comes out during the season, the rules package is set for the entire season. (only exception is if a product is no longer produced.)

Then the last few pages of the thread the usual thing happened. Anyone discussing anything different from the "norm" got shouted down for being negative and any useful discussion died.


Glad I could kill the thread for you.:thumbsup:

Glad I could kill the thread for you.:thumbsup:

That's ok, at no point in the history of oval racing, aside from the first couple years of the BRL, has anyone ever been interested in offering something for the serious racers who don't want to spend or get handouts. I'll be shocked\impressed if that changes now.

The options for this group for this group will always be....
A. Ruin beginner class
B. Suck it up and spend
C. Don't spend and accept running slower than their talent level
D. Quit

A fair number of guys choose option A, a small number choose B or C and the vast majority choose D. That's a big part of why we have 1/10 the racers we did 10 years ago.

Discussing anything different is pointless anyway.

Nope, I agree. We've lost many many experienced racers because of cost/rules/inability to keep up. I looked at the 17.5 truck as that class for experienced racers, but I can see your point. Maybe it's the 17.5 COT in the future as the cost controlled/ experienced racer class. (However, it is slower than maybe you would like to see). At our track, and I can't speak directly for them as I don't run with most of them, I think they would prefer a slower class than 10.5. I saw several of our experienced racers Saturday night run 17.5 COT and it really was right at 4 cell stock speeds, or at least in its infancy it is until they figure it out better. It will probably end up being about where 4 cell 13.5 started out at before we all figured it out and picked up 2 laps.

As for new racers, I still wonder if new racer classes should just be slashes, legens, sk's, or whatever, but governed by tracks, not TOUR.

There are a few principles that I found to be unquestionably true that I think we all need to realize as we go forward. Realize, as a racer, I'm lecturing myself just as much with these comments. If we can all try to agree on these, we can solve this riddle much easier:


Principle #1: WE CAN RACE ANYTHING AND LIVE WITH IT!! Stop being soooooo passionate about your "pet peeve" with regard to rules & classes. I think we would all do well to realize this. If we move from 17.5 limited to 17.5 open......some of you would think the world was about to end, we've killed the sport, and you're selling out!! The TRUTH is that all of the whining and crying on HobbyTalk about your "pet peeve" kills off more enthusiasm than any rule change could.
Principle #2: WHATEVER WE DECIDE ON.........LET'S ALL DO IT!! That's the only purpose of the TOUR, to get us on the same page. I know a bunch of you thought "must be cool to be the one making the rules....you can make things any way you want." Trust me when I tell you....2 months into this I could have cared less what we came up with (1-cell, 2-cell, 3-cell, VW bodies, rubber tires, clockwise, counter clockwise, etc.) as long as I could get 3 people to agree on anything...I could've cared less!! It was a killer to have gone through all of that, and find more than 70% of the tracks and series insistent on tweaking the rules, to varying degrees, because "they needed something different". 8ull$hit! Here is the truth....like it or not......WE......AS RACERS (in a declining economy) LOBBY our local race/series promoters into customizing things to suit our wishes.....and they cave to the racers. Period. We, the racers, create this mess for ourselves by trying to have too much input to the final product. Please realize that I am an old goat who raced back in the days when I would go to a track and THEY (the track/promoter) would tell ME what the rules were.....and didn't take a poll or survey.................and we all lived through it...................and we all had just as much fun and turnouts were high. If we all follow a common set of guidelines, and stop trying to tweek things, we would all be better off. So, my advice is..............state your case...........with passion, if you feel the need........then give your undieing support to the final product, whether you got you way or not.More thoughts later. gotta run now. Thanks for letting me ramble.

Steve

Nope, I agree. We've lost many many experienced racers because of cost/rules/inability to keep up. I looked at the 17.5 truck as that class for experienced racers, but I can see your point. Maybe it's the 17.5 COT in the future as the cost controlled/ experienced racer class. (However, it is slower than maybe you would like to see). At our track, and I can't speak directly for them as I don't run with most of them, I think they would prefer a slower class than 10.5. I saw several of our experienced racers Saturday night run 17.5 COT and it really was right at 4 cell stock speeds, or at least in its infancy it is until they figure it out better. It will probably end up being about where 4 cell 13.5 started out at before we all figured it out and picked up 2 laps.

As for new racers, I still wonder if new racer classes should just be slashes, legens, sk's, or whatever, but governed by tracks, not TOUR.

Slower definitely equals better. The reason I suggested 10.5 for my idea is if you look at the rest of my rules you see GTB\Havoc speedos, lots of lead, and World GT Tires. This will also slow the cars down a lot. I'd guess this would be 5-ish laps slower than 10.5 open rules. Keep in mind I am thinking of something to cater to experienced and fast former\current racers who want to spend less and chase technology less. I'd suggest leaving the 17.5 cost controlled class to newer and less talented guys, so they can have a comfortable place to run.

So to follow Steve's guidelines.....
Patrick Simkins (TOUR Ultimate Dictator)
Official Rules

17.5 Cost Controlled (See my rules above)
10.5 Cost Controlled (See my rules above)
17.5 Open
13.5 Open
10.5 Open

No, I don't think we need 5 classes, but I'm pandering.

There are a few principles that I found to be unquestionably true that I think we all need to realize as we go forward. Realize, as a racer, I'm lecturing myself just as much with these comments. If we can all try to agree on these, we can solve this riddle much easier:


Principle #1: WE CAN RACE ANYTHING AND LIVE WITH IT!! Stop being soooooo passionate about your "pet peeve" with regard to rules & classes. I think we would all do well to realize this. If we move from 17.5 limited to 17.5 open......some of you would think the world was about to end, we've killed the sport, and you're selling out!! The TRUTH is that all of the whining and crying on HobbyTalk about your "pet peeve" kills off more enthusiasm than any rule change could.
Principle #2: WHATEVER WE DECIDE ON.........LET'S ALL DO IT!! That's the only purpose of the TOUR, to get us on the same page. I know a bunch of you thought "must be cool to be the one making the rules....you can make things any way you want." Trust me when I tell you....2 months into this I could have cared less what we came up with (1-cell, 2-cell, 3-cell, VW bodies, rubber tires, clockwise, counter clockwise, etc.) as long as I could get 3 people to agree on anything...I could've cared less!! It was a killer to have gone through all of that, and find more than 70% of the tracks and series insistent on tweaking the rules, to varying degrees, because "they needed something different". 8ull! Here is the truth....like it or not......WE......AS RACERS (in a declining economy) LOBBY our local race/series promoters into customizing things to suit our wishes.....and they cave to the racers. Period. We, the racers, create this mess for ourselves by trying to have too much input to the final product. Please realize that I am an old goat who raced back in the days when I would go to a track and THEY (the track/promoter) would tell ME what the rules were.....and didn't take a poll or survey.................and we all lived through it...................and we all had just as much fun and turnouts were high. If we all follow a common set of guidelines, and stop trying to tweek things, we would all be better off. So, my advice is..............state your case...........with passion, if you feel the need........then give your undieing support to the final product, whether you got you way or not.More thoughts later. gotta run now. Thanks for letting me ramble.

Steve

Ah yes the typical chastisement for whining. Unfortunately for every 5 hobbytalk "whiners" such as myself there are 50 guys who quietly sell out or switch to another form of racing.

Dictatorships are fantastic and I agree that is what we need, BUT the dictator has to be doing the right things for the MAJORITY of racers.

If you can explain to me, with EVIDENCE, how having classes so fast that a current "stock equivalent" car could easily run competitively with open mod cars from 2002 is good for the MAJORITY of racers I am all ears.

Then if you can explain to me, with EVIDENCE, how having open equipment is good for the MAJORITY of racers I'd be interested.

The key to being a good dictator of the rules is being able to see the big picture and do what's best for the group. Even if the group doesn't know what's best for themselves. That is the whole point of governments, organizations and leadership.

In the 15 years or so I've been playing with pan cars here is what I've seen.

Increased cost = fewer racers
Increased speed = fewer racers
Increased complexity = fewer racers

If somebody thinks that isn't true then prove it.

For the reading comprehension impaired I'll say this again. I'm not proposing any changes to existing classes. If you like open classes then you still have 3 to choose from just like before. If your track draws 40 racers for these classes then nothing has to, or should, change for you. What I'm suggesting DOES NOT affect you. So, just keep that in mind before saying, change is bad, I like open classes, Mamba is greatest thing since sliced bread etc etc etc.

I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of guys who are serious racers that can't\won't spend or chase technology. The majority of the many many racers who have sold out fell into this group. Why not offer one class for these guys?

P.S. I do show up and race no matter the rules and up until this year have always fallen into the group that will spend anything, likes going fast and enjoys technology. I'm just trying to see the big picture here.

If you do choose to invest 20 minutes in going back and reading the thread you'll see there are a good number of guys who know what they're talking about that agree.

I usually just run whatever class rules we have, but I do like Pat's class idea. Having a class for experienced racers that don't want to mess with all the timing settings, appeals to me. I think this might appeal to others that don't have time to get to a track 4 hours early and test, test, test in order to find the sweet spot timing wise. It would get us back to chassis and driving. I am sure this isn't the most popular idea, but it might be a class that those of us that are getting a little older might enjoy.

I Don't see the need for two 10.5 classes.
17.5 spec esc or 21.5 open. Esc as entry class truck body
17.5 cot open esc, tires
13.5 nationwide
10.5 when. You can get enough to race it.
Larger Events offer 7.5 as mod

my opinion....

fix the approvals... if it's not available in hobbyshops at the start of the season, better luck next year. that goes for batteries, motors, speedos, whatever.

also, make a decision on what numbers to use for teching motors... whether it's inductance or resistance then make it a rule in black and white.

classes...
doesn't matter what i say cause you guys are stuck on them ugly bodies anyway. i'll run whats in the rules for the class i wanna run.

Also any rule, class, motor and battery changes should be finalized by July. Waiting til the last minute sucks. Our indoor season here starts at the end of Sept. so rules should be ready by then.

I also agree that the motors, batteries and ESC's must be approved by Sept. 1st to be run that season. If they aren't approved, they are not allowed til the following season.

I also agree that the motors, batteries and ESC's must be approved by Sept. 1st to be run that season. If they aren't approved, they are not allowed til the following season.[/quote]

This is more important then ANY other rule!!!!:dude: