True, but I was thinking more long term for the new racers that enter the 17.5 truck class. By letting them purchase an esc that they can use at the next level as they improve which would be more cost effective for a racer that say starts in 21.5 truck with an open speedo can move into the 17.5 cot class without buying a second esc.

I see your point. My point is the other way, me being a racer that has been involved in some way for over 21 years has settled in on the truck class. It doesn't involve all the tweeks to speed controls and chasing tires, just plug in and go. It is a very competitive class and i have found fun again in RC Racing. Last saturday we had the top 3 trucks with in 1 second of each other.
I have always struggled with my carpet program and now have found a class that I can be competitive in and not feel that I will always be 2 laps behind.
Its a successful class leave it alone. Don't mess it up with all sorts of changes.
The proff is in the entries, both the COT, the biggest class all winter and Trucks now being discovered and starting to grow.

Tour entries,
13.5 COT 125 entries
10.5 99 Entries
7.5 40 Entires

BRL
13.5 COT 78 Entries
10.5 51 Entries
21.5 26 Entries
7.5 22 Entries

Neither series kept points for trucks eventhough they were a bigger class than 21.5 and 7.5 classes at the last two BRL races.

17.5 trucks
Limited speed control (Havok, GTB or other simular non adjusting speedcontrol.
Speck tires. (I don't care which brand pick one and stick with it.)

Just my $.02 worth.

Andy

My input on the truck class would be to open up the battery so that we can use the same batteries as the other classes. As far as speedos go I think the majority of racers in that class already have the Tekin in their trucks now, changing the speedo just means spending more money on a speedo that is only good for one class. Randy M.

As someone who ran trucks a few times this year, I dont really want them to go any slower as we were already about 1 sec/lap slower than the 10.5 cars at the birds and getting run over in practice. Gearing also became an issue with the no timing ESC, no way you could make a 21.5 no timing ESC work on gearing as I was right at the limit with 17.5 and no timing on the bird size track. Personally I would prefer to run timing and a slower motor than no timing and a faster motor.

I can see why there is a desire to run no timing ESC's but is that a false economy as you will have to replace it to run any other class? Also how much cheaper is a Novak vs a mamba? Same with the 25C battery, you could buy a nice 40C battery for $40 at the birds. Having to go back 2 years in technology and only one mfg for a battery seems like a step back to me. How long is SMC going to keep making the 25C pack? I would prefer to see a 40C battery limit so if you want to move up you can reuse your equipment when you move up to COT.

I like the spec tire, but would have liked the option to run a harder RF tire as the WGT seemed like it had a bit too much bite at times. Maybe WGT on all but the RF which could be any spec tire?


My.02

John Fisher
#577

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.

I think hes got it!!:thumbsup:

I have to say I don't like all the rules on bodies/wing-no wing/back in, back cut-out
and I really hate speed control/battery restrictions.

So:

SST class (same as it was)

13.5 single cell (open)

10.5 single cell (open)

any motor single cell (open)

(open) means NO RESTRICTIONS on body/batts/car/speedo

the usual rules (dimensions/weight/charging/etc) all apply. . . .

just my thoughts.

John Sparks
(231)598-1769

I have to say I don't like all the rules on bodies/wing-no wing/back in, back cut-out
and I really hate speed control/battery restrictions.

So:

SST class (same as it was)

13.5 single cell (open)

10.5 single cell (open)

any motor single cell (open)

(open) means NO RESTRICTIONS on body/batts/car/speedo

the usual rules (dimensions/weight/charging/etc) all apply. . . .

just my thoughts.

John Sparks
(231)598-1769

im with john totally, jus to make sure those r (nascar style lids in 13.5 an 10.5) no clowns w wedge or gt bodies:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

well you guys didnt like it when i locked everything down with the USAOVAL. So either one way or the other guys.

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.

discussion should end here anything beyond this is just people trying to make things match what they want and not thinking about the big picture.

All open speedo

21.5 truck
17.5 cot
13.5 nationwide
10.5 nationwide

whether TOUR does this next season or not, this looks to be the direction our local track is going to take. I think we may start running this for the summer season that starts in a few weeks time...

I think Cory's comment pertains more to Puf19 and Mike Boylan's comments. What works at Snowbirds and tracks of similar size isn't necessarily great at the many "bullrings" in the northeast, whether you can wheel a fast class on it or not.

I race Boylans local track every week. Its pavment and its a short track. We use the same rules that are used at the Birds! We aint running 7.5

10.5 open 1s
13.5 open 1s COT
17.5 limited 1s Truck

That is it. Tour rules!

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.

I think this is a good way to go also. I just hope that NASCAR does not stop the body manufactures from making the COT half-way threw the season. There is some testing of a 17.5 COT class now and will be ran at the TOUR Nats.

As for myself, I found 13.5 faster than I like to race and control a car with faster racers. Droped back the 17.5 Truck at Rosewood and had more fun this winter than I have had in a long time. The ESC rules were any ESC, no v203 for Tekin and no cheat mode for the Mamba. Ran the WGT tires ( cut to 2.12 at start) 5 weekends and still have rubber left. The speed was fine. Many races seen most trucks on the same lap for most of the race ,althought I would not want to go slower. Allow any 1c battery so you could change classes with out buying a battery.

This is just My opinion
I could be wrong
It has happened before

discussion should end here anything beyond this is just people trying to make things match what they want and not thinking about the big picture.

Well, I've been thinking that for a while now!:confused:
Brian where have you been, missed you at the track for a while.:wave:

over 1300 views over 60 posts in less than a weeks time..

i think we still have the fire and we all want one thing...more racers more fun on the track and as little change as possible. we are all taking up ideas and no one is flaming the other guy.

it kinda looks split between cot 17.5 open esc and cot 13.5 as it is now no changes..
i felt like cot 8 months ago was a good speed for almost anyone..now it is at least 3 tenths a lap faster..7.5 is stupid fast and stupid expensive to keep tires on the car. 10.5 is a blast at alot of tracks...

glad i'm not allan! he he

Now where is MY Katf1sh block button, he is every where! Ha ha ha, it's all good!:eek:

Well I dont think much should be changed. We need to put our foot down and stick with something for awhile. Or better yet run what your local track offers!

I hear a bit of complaining about the COT body. Well with out the areo crutch you may need to work on the mechanical grip some! The 13.5 COTs looked good and were real fast at the Birds. And it was the biggest class! So the 10 or 12 of you on HT are the only ones who dont like it!

What are ya gonna do when NASCAR changes the NNS to the new car? It is coming. Well then we will say lets run ARCA bodys. Well ARCA runs NASCAR left overs alot and is a feeder division for NASCAR so sooner rather than later they will be running the new (COT) body too.

And what happend to all the GTB's and LRP and Speed Pasion ESC's when the Mamba came out??? Did they drop off the face of the earth? I took a GTB out of my car to install the Mamba. What did you folks take out of your cars??? Where did they go??? Some ESC black hole? We are only talking 1.....thats ONE class. And anyone caught cheating in this class should be ashamed. I mean....how lame are you to have to cheat in a slow ass class like that???

Or is this the case of 'I bet I could win, if only.......this, that and the other was changed'!!!!!!!

Sorry this is Traski and this is my semi annual rant on HT! Now lets continue with the usual BS!!!!

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.

My Vote!! :thumbsup:

Should insure we all get to keep racing the same 4 people locally and same 20 people nationally!

My Vote!! :thumbsup:
I'm with this too.
We have to keep the beginners in mind. Yes, Yes, and Yes, this may mean having to buy a Havoc or such, but the new guys (and we surely need some more new blood) won't have to absorb the timing part of the tuning learning curve. The spec tires, battery, and esc's will keep the cost down and help get the beginner up to speed quicker. Without having to tech the speedo, and all of this at a speed that he/she can handle.This is also a plus for the Sportsman racers out there. They could help the new guys, and enjoy racing at a speed that they are more comfortable racing. This is the goto class for racers out there that don't take it sooooooooo seriously, and rather look at racing as more fun than win at all cost.

It is not all about the cost. New (green) racers would'nt have to worry about his timing/rollout/adaptive timing setup, which tire to run and where, and buying the newest battery out there. This can be overwhelming to new guys.
After all he already has to learn alot right off the bat!

When he moves up to the faster classes, a new speed control should be the least of his worrries. He will spend close to that in tires. By this time he's figured out which class he wants to run, and can make an educated decision about what kind of commitment he wants to make to the hobby/sport.

The TOUR is a God send and I am thankful for them. They HAVE helped the numbers overall. Let's continue to keep the ball rolling, and get some more new racers on the track.

All open speedo

21.5 truck
17.5 cot
13.5 nationwide
10.5 nationwide

whether TOUR does this next season or not, this looks to be the direction our local track is going to take. I think we may start running this for the summer season that starts in a few weeks time...
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

i think we should open up the bodies for 13.5 and 10.5
17.5 open speedo cot
17.5 old speedos truck body
that way the people running trucks when they want to move up wont have to buy another motor when they want to run the next class.

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.
+1
The only thing I would do different is open the bodies in sportsman. That way if somebody likes a COT, Truck, outlaw, etc., they can start with that. It is sportsman after all. That's where the car enthusiast can enter oval racing with whatever body they think is cool. At those speeds, I don't think the body will make a whole lot of difference.

My thoughts...

* 17.5 Sportsman - Any 17.5 motor, Novak Havok or GTB ESC ONLY, truck bodies, WGT tires, SMC 25C battery. This keeps cost down to start (Novaks are under $100 for Havocs, which Novak says performs just like a GTB), and tire wear almost at zero, and battery is less expensive. Designed for BEGINNERS ONLY! If you run this class at an event, you are not allowed in another class.

*17.5 TOUR Trucks - Any 17.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery.

*13.5 TOUR COT - Any 13.5 motor, any ESC, any tires, any approved battery, COT wing or spoiler allowed

*10.5 TOUR PRO - Any 10.5 motor, any ESC , any tires, any approved battery, "Nationwide" style bodies.

If Snowbirds wants to offer an "open" class, or 7.5 class, that is really the only race that draws enough guys of that talent level to have a decent show. Should limit it to 7.5, takes dumping out of the equation, and less burned electronics.

Although I like the concept of a 21.5/1s class, I think getting enough gear on it on bigger tracks will be an issue, then it comes down to keeping big tires on all the time.

I would rather see 2 cot classes than 2 truck classes.

Jake

As a new racer that moved up to his first pan car(sportsman truck) from the Legends class, I feel I have a fairly good perspective on what the guys coming into the hobby are thinking. I really like the spec tire rule because I dont have to stand in front of the tire display and figure out what compound out of the 15 in front of me is gonna work best, its already decided for me. I like not having to have a laptop and a doctorate to program my speedo. I like the fact that I have'nt had to train my eyes to NOT BLINK for 4 minutes because my dern car moves so fast that I feel like if I get outta shape I'm gonna have to get a broom and a dustpan to get my car off the track. I REALLY like the fact that with the truck body, the class is the most distinguishable class at the track and that if I see a truck that I know they are racing in my class.
All this leaves me to be able to concentrate on the main issues involved in learning to drive one of these pan cars competitively, such as chassis set-up and tuning,tire prep and rollout calculations, and most importantly how to hit my marks and run a consistent line every lap. Few people realize that's the most important thing about a sportsman class, those skills are whats gonna prepare me to move up to a faster class as my skills progress, or I may run that class forever and enjoy the super tight racing and being able to actually take a break and talk with my fellow racers in between races.
So here is my opinion on the only class that I run, 17.5 sportsman truck. Leave the body alone(its different and stands out from the rest). Let any speedo run, its obvious by your laptimes if your cheating with any timing advance and doesnt take but a second to check it. Keep the WGT tire, it makes my life a lot easier when I have to buy tires and they wear really well too! Let us run a real battery, put a 40c or 50c limit on batteries and turn em' loose. My local track has been doing just fine with the class as it is and is sometime's the biggest class. This is just my opinion but I think its a fairly good one. Thanks guys!

As a new racer that moved up to his first pan car(sportsman truck) from the Legends class, I feel I have a fairly good perspective on what the guys coming into the hobby are thinking. I really like the spec tire rule because I dont have to stand in front of the tire display and figure out what compound out of the 15 in front of me is gonna work best, its already decided for me. I like not having to have a laptop and a doctorate to program my speedo. I like the fact that I have'nt had to train my eyes to NOT BLINK for 4 minutes because my dern car moves so fast that I feel like if I get outta shape I'm gonna have to get a broom and a dustpan to get my car off the track. I REALLY like the fact that with the truck body, the class is the most distinguishable class at the track and that if I see a truck that I know they are racing in my class.
All this leaves me to be able to concentrate on the main issues involved in learning to drive one of these pan cars competitively, such as chassis set-up and tuning,tire prep and rollout calculations, and most importantly how to hit my marks and run a consistent line every lap. Few people realize that's the most important thing about a sportsman class, those skills are whats gonna prepare me to move up to a faster class as my skills progress, or I may run that class forever and enjoy the super tight racing and being able to actually take a break and talk with my fellow racers in between races.
So here is my opinion on the only class that I run, 17.5 sportsman truck. Leave the body alone(its different and stands out from the rest). Let any speedo run, its obvious by your laptimes if your cheating with any timing advance and doesnt take but a second to check it. Keep the WGT tire, it makes my life a lot easier when I have to buy tires and they wear really well too! Let us run a real battery, put a 40c or 50c limit on batteries and turn em' loose. My local track has been doing just fine with the class as it is and is sometime's the biggest class. This is just my opinion but I think its a fairly good one. Thanks guys!
Can't be said any more appropriately. Stop thinking about National events and start thinking about things like this guy says. He's not pimping a product or rule because he'll get a deal...he's not trying to go faster just for speeds' sake...he's just making sense. Let's not worry about the transition from where guys like this are to the next step. How can we be sure this type of racer even wants to be at "the next step"?
Thanks for your input and advice and doing so in a manner that can be commended.

dk

NO reason to make MORE classes, or make people buy more/different motors.
If you do not like the class you are in, move to another, dont try to change it because you can not make it work! you can not tell me the COT body does not work, track records are dropping all over the place...I love the fact everyone has to run the same body in that class. Just returning after 3 years off, the racing has been the best in years! Per Dale Epp" The COT body has more aero then any other body done to date"

Here's my vote:

1) Either 21.5 open ESC or 17.5 Limited ESC - Nastruck body, Open Battery, Open Tires.

2) 17.5 COT Open tires, Battery, ESC

3) 13.5 Open class (Battery, Tires, ESC, Body)

4) 10.5 Open class (Battery, Tires, ESC, Body)

After running the trucks most of the year I can tell you that 4 world gt tires, though they have long wear, absolutely suck for the new guy to tune and get a handle on. I ran 4 greens for a test in 17.5 COT and they were tons better than world gt tires so if there are spec tires then go that route.

I agree with the comment about double entries at big races and if you factor that into the cost for a racer then it would make sense to have two cars that at are similar so you can tune them both about the same. Right now I'm running 17.5 COT open and 13.5 COT open and the tire combinations are close and the setup is very close. With the speeds I think that open body in 13.5 would be best.

My Vote anyway,
Bill

Here's my vote:

1) Either 21.5 open ESC or 17.5 Limited ESC - Nastruck body, Open Battery, Open Tires.

2) 17.5 COT Open tires, Battery, ESC

3) 13.5 Open class (Battery, Tires, ESC, Body)

4) 10.5 Open class (Battery, Tires, ESC, Body)

After running the trucks most of the year I can tell you that 4 world gt tires, though they have long wear, absolutely suck for the new guy to tune and get a handle on. I ran 4 greens for a test in 17.5 COT and they were tons better than world gt tires so if there are spec tires then go that route.

I agree with the comment about double entries at big races and if you factor that into the cost for a racer then it would make sense to have two cars that at are similar so you can tune them both about the same. Right now I'm running 17.5 COT open and 13.5 COT open and the tire combinations are close and the setup is very close. With the speeds I think that open body in 13.5 would be best.

My Vote anyway,
Bill

I agree with Bill.

I have to agree with dudleysdad07, a lot of merit in this post and as dk says it makes sense. I too agree on opening the battery up for 17.5 Sportsman truck. As long as rules continue to limit batteries that are approved by a particular date prior to the season then this should not be a problem. I say keep the WGT tires, they wear like iron and are very easy to tech, plus it helps you learn how to setup a chassis correctly instead of throwing a different tire compound at a bad setup. Speedos- not even going there and honestly I really don't care how this shakes out, with what I can save running this class over an open tire rule class I can afford to buy a new speedo or two during the season. I do hope whatever is decided on for ESCs will let me run a current production ESC (locally I know of one class that is limited to a handfull of speedos - none of which are in production anymore). Basically my vote is leave 17.5 Nastruck as is with exception to the battery limit and possibly open up the speedos to what is available by a certain date.

Just my .025 cents (inflation ya know)

Seems racing was very successful when we had a stock, sportsman 19, expert 19, and mod. Mod guys could run their second class as expert 19, sportsman guys could run stock and sportsman 19 or expert 19. 19 was the middle ground. Somehow it would be cool to keep four core 10th pan classes with this concept. Just a thought.

i think we should open up the bodies for 13.5 and 10.5
17.5 open speedo cot
17.5 old speedos truck body
that way the people running trucks when they want to move up wont have to buy another motor when they want to run the next class.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I appreciate everyone's input, there are many good points been made. TOUR main goals has always been to get new people in the hobby. Also try to get consistency in classes form track to track. From the feedback we have got (from track owners who have took time to contact us) is that the truck and cot classes have been the most popular classes and the ones with the most growth. I know there are pockets of racers who dont like either, I understand that and it is your right.
I will continue to read all post and appreciate them. We will try and have some info out after May 1st. I dont feel there will be any major changes at this time. But I am still talking with people and getting info.

Thanks
Allan A

I'm in the minority which I expected, because the 100 or so racers we have left (or the vocal portion of them) like what we have or they'd be gone like 90% of the people we used to have are. It'd be a lot more interesting to hear from all the guys who are no longer in this, but that'll obviously never happen.

What this class structure, which is really just status quo, that everyone likes leaves out is somewhere for an experienced racer to go and not spend a ton of money and chase equipment. I guess guys like me can go ruin the beginner class or keep spending $40 a week on tires and chasing equipment.

Well hopefully at the very least there will be a firm approval date set for equipment that actually means something this year. Speedos included, and if that means teching the programmable ones then so be it.

Also, I can't believe people care so much about the body. That is far and away the least important part of the discussion.

i think we should open up the bodies for 13.5 and 10.5
17.5 open speedo cot
17.5 old speedos truck body
that way the people running trucks when they want to move up wont have to buy another motor when they want to run the next class.

I agree with this too!:thumbsup:
Yes, the 17.5 trucks for beginners/ sportsman
17.5 cot for stock type
13.5 for 19 turn type racing
10.5 for the faster cars, about as fast as anyone would want to run on a regular basis? The four core classes, right?
:thumbsup:

Bingo.

i think we should open up the bodies for 13.5 and 10.5
17.5 open speedo cot
17.5 old speedos truck body
that way the people running trucks when they want to move up wont have to buy another motor when they want to run the next class.

What is considered 17.5 old speedos truck body? Does that mean I can't run my Tekin and have to get something else?

Can't be said any more appropriately. Stop thinking about National events and start thinking about things like this guy says. He's not pimping a product or rule because he'll get a deal...he's not trying to go faster just for speeds' sake...he's just making sense. Let's not worry about the transition from where guys like this are to the next step. How can we be sure this type of racer even wants to be at "the next step"?
Thanks for your input and advice and doing so in a manner that can be commended.

dk
Exactly, getting people in the door and racing should be the first priority (along w/racer retention) and catering to guys such as dudleysdad07. Wondering how to get them to move up should be a priority once there are 40 guys in the class at every track in the US. And if all 40 of them want to stay in that class I really dont think there is anything wrong with that either. The racers that want to move up find a way, and the ones that dont wont which is fine too. In our hobby racers generally find more reasons to move down a class vs moving up anyway... happens time and time again. Whatever the lowest class is on the totem pole should be "cheap", simple and fun and that should be the only class you're allowed to run, to keep guys from coming down and buschwacking, and help retain the grass roots racer. I personally think that the rules in our hobby are catered far too much around all of us "travelers" and the vocal names here on hobbytalk. In the end all of us get what we want to one degree or another and are willing to put up with about anything, its the guys that never post and just get frustrated and quit or just say "why bother" that are the guys we really need to hear from.



I'm in the minority which I expected, because the 100 or so racers we have left (or the vocal portion of them) like what we have or they'd be gone like 90% of the people we used to have are. It'd be a lot more interesting to hear from all the guys who are no longer in this, but that'll obviously never happen.

What this class structure, which is really just status quo, that everyone likes leaves out is somewhere for an experienced racer to go and not spend a ton of money and chase equipment. I guess guys like me can go ruin the beginner class or keep spending $40 a week on tires and chasing equipment.
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Thats the group I've seent he most frustration from.

I really dont think your in the minority..... just on this thread....you just dont hear from those guys, they just disappear. Again...... I personally think that the rules in our hobby are catered far too much around the "travelers" and the vocal names here on hobbytalk.

Hays, you are right on, they just put there stuff on the shelf or the poetiental new races says no way. I sopke with more that 10 long time traveling racers at the snowbirds that said, cars where to fast and they had moved down 1 or 2 classes from what they would have run in the past so they could "have fun again". Several said that after the snowbirds that they would most likely be setting out for a while or quiting. I think you are right, the silent majority are the ones we need to get to the track, major changes again this year will just keep them quiet and away.

I think we saw this first hand with the guys running 10.5 and even some 7.5 racers being concerned about having to buy a Mamba or a Tekin to be able to compete. Tire bills already eat everybody's lunch, consistancy between battery batches didn't help, so why make things harder.

So right now we have a cost controlled class for the beginners, but not for more experienced racers who don't want to beat up on the little guy and who don't want to go nuts keeping up with technology.

What it really comes down to is every track needs to do what is best for it's drivers, to keep them coming back. The only class that turned into a nightmare this year was the Sportsman class, simply because of the speed control situation. Club tracks aren't going to have the equipment and/or the extra man power to tech each truck as it goes to the track to see what software or settings it's running. That alone hurt the truck class locally because a few people decided it was easier to cheat than work on their stuff. Sadly, they still didn't win. Atleast until the track opened up the rule and drove a good portion of the field away.

We all agree that steps need to be taken to get the hobby to grow again, unfortunately I don't think that can be done at a national level... it has to be done at the local level. If TOUR rules can get new people in the door, great... If not, the tracks have to find ways to get new people in the door, even if they have to make up their own rule book..

Keep in mind, TOUR doesn't pay the rent... The local drivers do.

So right now we have a cost controlled class for the beginners, but not for more experienced racers who don't want to beat up on the little guy and who don't want to go nuts keeping up with technology.

"Expert Cost Controlled"

Speedo: Novak Havoc or GTB
I know some people have a problem with Novak, but this makes the most logistical sense with the number of old GTBs floating around. Also, the Havocs are cheap.

Motor: Novak 10.5
Again this just makes logistical\financial sense over other brands.

Tires: World GT

Body: Don't care.
I'm partial to the COTs as is, but I don't think the body affects the cost or quality of racing enough to be worth arguing over. So go with whatever.

Weight: 2lb 9oz.
Oh my god I'll have to put lead in my car, the sky is falling! I just wanted to say that to save the other people the trouble. Why have this? It will instantly make the old cars competitive again. I know somebody will say "I just set the track record with my old Pro 3", but the reality seems to be the cars with max potential need to have a >=.500" offset with the one cell 2lb 4oz. stuff. This would also allow us to go back to running tires larger.

Battery: SMC 25C 4000 pack. (if they are\will continue to make it)
Why? Basically we need to pick something that is not "race" oriented. I think most of us realize the battery manufacturers make incremental upgrades to their packs while keeping them in the same case with the same label. Thus forcing us to go out and buy new packs, or at least making us think we need to. If we pick something that they have no incentive to constantly tinker with it eliminates that problem.

I think this would be a really fun class and I'd run it in an instant if it were offered.

"Expert Cost Controlled"

Speedo: Novak Havoc or GTB
I know some people have a problem with Novak, but this makes the most logistical sense with the number of old GTBs floating around. Also, the Havocs are cheap.

Motor: Novak 10.5
Again this just makes logisticalfinancial sense over other brands.

Tires: World GT

Body: Don't care.
I'm partial to the COTs as is, but I don't think the body affects the cost or quality of racing enough to be worth arguing over. So go with whatever.

Weight: 2lb 9oz.
Oh my god I'll have to put lead in my car, the sky is falling! I just wanted to say that to save the other people the trouble. Why have this? It will instantly make the old cars competitive again. I know somebody will say "I just set the track record with my old Pro 3", but the reality seems to be the cars with max potential need to have a >=.500" offset with the one cell 2lb 4oz. stuff.

Battery: SMC 25C 4000 pack. (if they arewill continue to make it)
Why? Basically we need to pick something that is not "race" oriented. I think most of us realize the battery manufacturers make incremental upgrades to their packs while keeping them in the same case with the same label. Thus forcing us to go out and buy new packs, or at least making us think we need to. If we pick something that they have no incentive to constantly tinker with it eliminates that problem.

I think this would be a really fun class and I'd run it in an instant if it were offered.


You killed it with the WGT foams and speck pack both of thoes things SUCK.

You want to set a tire slection 3 pinks and purple and make the lipos not over 5000 40 c

This would be a great class.Even with the COT body LOL.

Jake

Interesting Pat.
I really think Allan's got next season's core classes down.

But experimental or off the wall ideas aren't bad things to think about.

You killed it with the WGT foams and speck pack both of thoes things SUCK.

You want to set a tire slection 3 pinks and purple and make the lipos not over 5000 40 c

This would be a great class.Even with the COT body LOL.

Jake

I'm fine with the 3 pinks and a purple or team purple (which is world gt anyway) as long as BSR doesn't mind having some sort of dedicated rim or strip for these. Something would have to distinguish them from both regular tires and existing World GT. I think that may be hard to sell them on, and might result in pricier tires for us.

I don't see anything positive about open battery though. You'd have to explain that one to me.

Interesting Pat.
I really think Allan's got next season's core classes down.

But experimental or off the wall ideas aren't bad things to think about.

It doesn't matter to me what the TOUR does really. We could try it (or some variation) out at the BRL. If 30-40 guys got into it and started running I bet it'd suddenly appear at the TOUR races.

I'm fine with the 3 pinks and a purple or team purple (which is world gt anyway) as long as BSR doesn't mind having some sort of dedicated rim or strip for these. Something would have to distinguish them from both regular tires and existing World GT. I think that may be hard to sell them on, and might result in pricier tires for us.

I don't see anything positive about open battery though. You'd have to explain that one to me.

Sorry I dont have a good excuse for the spec lipo I guess really they would be fine just seams it takes a few rounds to wake them up but with a 10.5 motor you would have some amount of rip anyway.

Yea 3 pinks and a team purple is fine allso as that is what I liked on my 10.5 car ,Ha ha


Jake

What this class structure, which is really just status quo, that everyone likes leaves out is somewhere for an experienced racer to go and not spend a ton of money and chase equipment. I guess guys like me can go ruin the beginner class or keep spending $40 a week on tires and chasing equipment.


I think for the near future until we get our classes/speeds figured out with 1-cell less change is probably better but I think what Mr. Simkins is saying (and I agree with) is simply dropping 1 motor isnt going to do a whole lot in the long run.

Quick example(or not so quick)....
One of my good friends use to race quite a bit a decade ago and did really well here in the midwest but hasnt raced and hasnt raced competitively in several years. Lets say I wanted to get him back out.... hes a great driver, good setup guy, and really wouldnt belong in the 17.5 truck class.

Pitch#1:
How about you come out and race this year, they dropped the motors 1 class and now we can buy whatever esc we want to, more than likely you'll be buying another 1 before the season is done though as there's 3 new ones in the works. We've got batts in stock, but there may be a better batch coming out in the next month. Oh and you'll more than likely be spending $40 a week on tires.

Pitch #2
How about you come out and race this year. They've mandated a spec tire and locked in a TOUR approved lipo and motor for 13.5 for the next 3 years. The cars are fast with good tire wear and you wont have to keep up with the latest and greatest.

Obiviously the 2nd sounds more enticing to a racer who quit for whatever reason. That is one of the groups of racers we need to get back(retired/semi-retired)..... if you look at dirtoval they are getting good turnouts, but its not new racers. Its racers than have been racing forever and most of which once ran carpet oval.

There needs to be a reason for the people that strayed away to come back, and right now there isnt one. Dropping everything down 1 motor isnt going to bring them back, but hopefully will keep enough happy for the time being.

I think the average experienced mildly competitive racer that has been racing for 10-20years wants this: (not necessarily in this order)
(1)-Be able to end the season with roughly the same equipment and class they started with.
(2)-Cars that are reasonably fast, but not out of control and not disgustingly slow. Cars that are fun to drive and cars you can actually "drive " somewhat not full throttle and steer.
(3)-Cost control
(All 3 apply atleast here in the midwest)
Right now we do not have a class that meets any of those criteria for the more seasoned racer, and hence why alot of longtime racers that have hung around through thick and thin are kind of on the fence.

Momentum is right tracks need to do what they can to stay open, but in the end what TOUR decides does make a difference as most of the tracks left have atleast say 25-50% of their racers that travel or keep up on what is happening on a national level. So their thoughts do influence the local racing scene.

I like everything about spec but PLEASE if you guys have not ran the WGT foams run them befor you start putting them in every class:cry:

Jake

You want a lot of problems fixed, ALL the classes would need to slow down!


At my local track the only pan car class running is BRL 13.5 COT. Turn-out on club nights has been 12-15 cars. We are very happy with those #'s. This Monday while at the track doing some testing a lacal "new" racer showed up to get some practice. I offered all the help I could and he eagerly accepted. After getting the car somewhat tuned in I suggested he go up 4 pinions because the motor was only about 90* after 4-5 minute runs. He descided to throw 2 at it and was smiling ear to ear after checking lap times. I again suggested to gear up more and he just looked at me and said "its allready faster then I can handle, I'll just get more practice right where its at"....lol! :thumbsup:

I like everything about spec but PLEASE if you guys have not ran the WGT foams run them befor you start putting them in every class:cry:

Jake

I'm totally cool with compounds that work better. I think if we are talking BRL we could easily have a gentlemens agreement on 3 pinks and a purple or team and have no problems. I think at other races there would need to be differentiation or there will be issues guaranteed.

I just liked the idea of the World GT because in theory they'd wear better and they are a couple bucks cheaper. You're right though I haven't run them and if they have issues lets not use them.

I'm totally cool with compounds that work better. I think if we are talking BRL we could easily have a gentlemens agreement on 3 pinks and a purple or team and have no problems. I think at other races there would need to be differentiation or there will be issues guaranteed.

I just liked the idea of the World GT because in theory they'd wear better and they are a couple bucks cheaper. You're right though I haven't run them and if they have issues lets not use them.

I ran them in the truck class with the guys at our track for a bout 4 or 5 weeks they do last a long time(in 17.5) well all but the right front you speed them up it will be worse and car set up is kinda wack with all the traction you get on the front right.I like the idea of using naturals though.

I let other guys jump in if they like them I have never ran them on a fast car but I bet we could to see.

Jake