just bought the dvd. this is the 2nd time ive seen the film, so the "wow" factor has been diluted.

anyone else think that, in relation to most of the stuff from TOS, the plot is just plain dumb, Dumb, DUMB?

(by the way, if you want a puketastic experience, just turn on the commentary track. it's like dogs meeting each other in the park.)

Yes. Dumb. It's one of many criticisms those of us have who weren't blinded by the flashy lights.

I'm a minor fan of JJ's stuff - I loved most of Alias, and early Lost was amazing. So far Fringe is a LOT of fun and hasn't gone off the rails. But most of his shows have at least one season that makes you wonder if he hired a 5th grade English class to write it. Most of this movie felt that way to me.

makes me wonder if the only time travel story these guys ever saw was the back to the future films, and even then they werent thinking about what it was saying.

I'm typically the last person on this board to defend "popcorn" movies - but in this case I think Abrams understood exactly what he needed to do to revitalize the franchise. You can argue that the movie is "dumb" - but the creative strategy behind it was anything but.

I saw it twice in the movie theater, so I've gotten all I need from it. This is one Trek film I won't be buying on DVD. I do agree that Abrams revitalized the franchise and got large number of people to go and see it, which makes it an unqualified financial success.

As for the story, I agree - not a lot of "meat" on the bone... I like popcorn movies too, but this one is only good for a small bag of popcorn.

Bryan

Bryan

I liked the movie, but I was disappointed. I didn't care that they changed the “look” of everything, change is good. There were so many plot cues that could have been taken from TOS and expounded upon, but they went with the old cliché, some ticked off guy with a grudge on the rampage. On top of that they threw in time travel. Been there, done that too many times to count. They had the perfect enemy staring them right in the face, The Doomsday Machine. Tell me that wouldn't have been cool. It would've been the same action packed movie and Vulcan could still get destroyed.

Alternative reality was fresh and new in TOS, but every ST series and movie since, it became old.
The "new movie" had it's moments, but so few it didn't help. As for buying the DVD, it ain't ST to me still. so no way.

It is no "dumber" than Star Trek III, and I don't remember anyone standing in a corner and insisting that movie "isn't Star Trek." I've watched every iteration of Trek since 1970 and I had a blast seeing this movie multiple times and am having great fun rewatching it and the special features on blu-ray. For some the "wow factor" is diluted on second viewing; for me the nitpicks disappear on second viewing. The problems are there, they're no more severe than the problems in any of the other Trek films, and they don't rankle from my perspective--I found far more to enjoy about the movie than I did to complain about. But I guess I'm one of those fans who watched the show for forty years but "doesn't understand Star Trek..."

I enjoyed it. More than many of the other Trek films. There were a couple of things I personally would have done differently, but overall they made it interesting, the characters were fresh and exciting and the story was thrilling. I found it no 'dumber' than any other Trek film and probably more daring and controversial than most. But what do I know. I'm just a 47 year old Trek fan.

I've got all my Trek films on VHS (except TNG) (yuck)and considered updating to DVD but you know, they just don't stand up to repeat watching. Nobody wants to watch them with me anymore. Truth is, they're really pretty bad SciFi. I guess Wrath of Khan is still my favorite.

But now this new movie, I'm excited about it. My wife liked it and my grown children liked it, and my grandchildren liked it. Even my girlfriend liked it. It's either the best one yet or the new hasn't worn off yet. I'm sorry to disagree but this the most enjoyable film so far. (IMO)

Don't forget, we pretty much nitpicked EVERY Trek film to death.

And I hated III, not just for being dumb, but for flushing down the toilet everything that was good about II.

JJTrek is one of my favorites. Of course, I can't stomach II.

I've only seen it the one time - haven't yet picked up the DVD - but enjoyed it. Sure a few things bugged me about a couple of plot points, but it was a fun movie.

Yes. Dumb. It's one of many criticisms those of us have who weren't blinded by the flashy lights.
That's not at all insulting to those of us who enjoyed the movie.... :rolleyes:

.

But now this new movie, I'm excited about it. My wife liked it and my grown children liked it, and my grandchildren liked it. Even my girlfriend liked it. It's either the best one yet or the new hasn't worn off yet. I'm sorry to disagree but this the most enjoyable film so far. (IMO)

Well, when your wife and your girlfriend both like the movie, that's saying something! :p

anyone else think that, in relation to most of the stuff from TOS, the plot is just plain dumb, Dumb, DUMB? Thanks for asking that. I thought that the uninspired plot was the one true failure of a otherwise exceptionally well-made film, but I held my tongue because everyone I know has been so ga-ga about it since it premiered.

While I really enjoyed and admired the technical aspects of JJ's Trek and the spot-on casting of so many nearly-unknown actors into heavily pre-defined roles, I felt that the "everything-plus-the-kitchen sink" feel of the plot left a lot to be desired when compared to earlier ST efforts. While I might not go so far as to call the plot "dumb" (although I've only seen it once), I really think that the extreme plot contortions necessary to provide a reason for Nimoy's Spock to appear and meet his younger self nearly spoiled the film for me.

Another (minor) thing that bugged me is that some aspects still didn't seem futuristic enough. I think I caught a glimpse of a conventional wheelchair carrying Kirk's mom near the beginning. They really hadn't improved wheelchair technology in 200 years? And the parachutes! It's sad to think that they still won't have jetpacks in the 23rd century.

That's not at all insulting to those of us who enjoyed the movie.... :rolleyes:

.

Whoops!
:D

spoiler spoiler.....






So some Romulan day laborer gets this massive Starship and starts destroying planets??
Other than that I really liked the new movie and I thought all of the Actors nailed their perspective Character Espescialy....Pavlov Checkov....Loved the movie as dumb as some of it was it was very shiney and had lots of action. Loved the Koboyashi Maru scene...That was classic Kirk sittin there eatin the apple....also loved Spocks line when he was Captian..."Get out of the chair" great popcorn Movie-Bryan

Pavel. And it's not too hard to imagine the empire having mining ships like that. Over designed as it may be. Nero's the captain of said ship.

Point taken about the wheelchair, Bluntfronts. However according to the 40's and 50's, we should all be flying to work by now in our hovercars. Even in their time, I don't think everything will be spectacularly advanced and super atomic.

At least the wheelchair was "green."

I'm going to FINALLY see it on MOD in the next few weeks.

Don't expect a conversion but I'll be honest about it.

I've already critiqued what I DO know about it so I won't rehash. If nothing else, I'll be more open to it since I'm inured to the aspects I know I don't like about it and will attempt to take it for what it is.

AND I LIKED STAR TREK III! Proof of its deep, lasting impact is Kramer's references to it in an episode of Seinfeld.

Seriously, the most exciting sci-fi novels I've read are roller coaster rides as in STIII. ST:Gen also did the same thing for me--lots of fun.

So we'll see about this one.

An episode of DS9 also featured someone in an almost perfectly-normal 20th century wheelchair. I guess TOS Capt Pike was ahead of his time.

I agree that the new movie was "dumb" in a big way but in its defense, no dumber than the previous outings. What was improved over the previous films (except for TMP) was the production value, it looked and felt like a feature film (instead of a TV episode put on the big screen). A relentlessly DUMB feature film but a feature film none the less.

I got interested in science fiction for (as another member here put it) "the brain candy". This film had zero, so my interest in it is zero. This is a disturbingly common trend among today's so-called "sci-fi" offerings. The expression so often heard on this board that some subject must be "updated for today's audiences" invariably means "dumbed down for today's audiences". It is a sad comment on these audiences, to be sure, yet seems to be quite true.

Amazingly, as big a Trek fan as I've been over the years, I've not seen the movie yet. Of course, with all the coverage it gets here and on other boards, I know a lot of what happens. Can't say I'm too anxious to see it. My wife and I will watch it in a month or so. I'll see what I think, I guess. Still not a fan of the JJPrise. The resizing of the ship after it was designed was kinda dumb, but I know that has little to do with the plot... :-)

Pavel. And it's not too hard to imagine the empire having mining ships like that. Over designed as it may be. Nero's the captain of said ship.

i KNOW...JUST SEEIN IF ANYONE PAYS ATTENION:)
:wave:

Phil, I never thought of the "updated for today's audiences" movies meant "dumbed down for today's audiences", but you nailed it so perfect!

After I saw it and had time to ruminate on it I was curious as to why someone would blame one person for being responsible for a star going Nova. It was apparent the Romulans (who are now huge fans of tattoos it seems) had plenty of advanced notice that their star was about to go boomie, you think they would have evacuated as many as possible just in case the little rescue plan didn't work.

Not only that, but he blames the one person who was trying to help. He failed, but he WAS trying to help. And of course, now that Nero's back in the past, he could use his time to enlighten the Romulan government about the dangers and probably get the ball rolling on evacuating the entire system long before the disaster, but NOOOOOO, revenge is so much more fun.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the film and it should be arriving from Amazon any day now. But you can easily pick it apart.

I've only seen it the one time - haven't yet picked up the DVD - but enjoyed it. Sure a few things bugged me about a couple of plot points, but it was a fun movie.
Didn't you turn to me part-way through the screening and say "we should've seen Terminator Salvation?" I'm sure that was you... ;)

I agree that the new movie was "dumb" in a big way but in its defense, no dumber than the previous outings.


That's no defense. I've long been hoping for "less dumb" Trek films, not "no dumber than the last one" Trek films.

Trek at its best gave you something to think about, some social or moral issue presented either directly or thru allegory.

After I saw it and had time to ruminate on it I was curious as to why someone would blame one person for being responsible for a star going Nova. It was apparent the Romulans (who are now huge fans of tattoos it seems) had plenty of advanced notice that their star was about to go boomie, you think they would have evacuated as many as possible just in case the little rescue plan didn't work.
The backstory - which you can find in the comic-book prequel, an official tie-in w/the movie - is that Nero and his crew (miners of "red matter", I think it was called?) discovered the problem with a star - not in the Romulan home star system - that was going to go Nova w/in a couple of months. Analysis was that this star had some sort of special properties which would cause a most spectacular SuperNova which would itself have a huge wave of "red matter" to sweep out in a chain reaction. The red matter would expand outward at FTL speeds, destroying other systems as it expanded outward.

They reported this to the Romulan gov't - who did pretty much not a darned thing. Ambassador Spock entreated upon the Senate to no avail. He then took the issue to the UFP. They had a couple of weeks or maybe three months advanced notice, but the Romulan Senate decided that they were going to be just fine. The UFP, however, took it serious enough to come up with a way to stop the event from happening.

Except that the SuperNova happened - apparently sooner than expected? - and they had only a few hours/days(?) before it hit the Romulan home system. The Prator, most of the Senate and other highly placed people w/Romulan society escaped in their ships, leaving the vast majority of the Romulan people to fend for themselves. The dead included Nero's wife and young son, as well as that of the crew's family/loved ones. For the most part, they all went insane in their grief.

The tatoos are some sort of ancient Romulan Mourning ritual, one that had fallen out of favor w/the bulk of Romulan society. Nero started the trend, w/his crew following. He then sought out, found and killed first the Prator,then the rest of the Senate. Then he sought out Spock, who was flying the Jellyfish ship in an attempt to at least stop the wave from destroying any other worlds, even tho he was too late to save the Romulan home systems.


Didn't you turn to me part-way through the screening and say "we should've seen Terminator Salvation?" I'm sure that was you... ;)
Hah! I think I said "Hey, wanna go to Shorty Small's and get some BBQ? :D

Terminator Salvation had some plot points which bugged me as well, but I still enjoyed it, too.

Just about all the previous Trek movies came complete with Big Messages and tried to combine that with an action movie plot and a villain. There's nothing wrong with a message but contrary to popular belief it's not a requirement for a Star Trek story. There's a reason "The Trouble With Tribbles" was the most popular Star Trek episode for decades. I see Abrams' Trek as something like a TOS episode like "By Any Other Name"--it's a plot that has dark and heavy elements to it and a villain, but the writing and character interplay for a lot of the episode is comedic and that makes it a fun episode to watch. If you listen to the commentary you'll see that the filmmakers are very much aware of the movie's weak points and the criticisms that have been leveled against it and I do expect the second one to be better. But I had a ball watching the first one.

When people start bashing the new Trek, I think of the clip on The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/trekkies_bash_new_star_trek_film

And shake my head and laugh.

Huzz

Hah! I think I said "Hey, wanna go to Shorty Small's and get some BBQ? :D

Terminator Salvation had some plot points which bugged me as well, but I still enjoyed it, too.
Ah, that must've been it. And we did, too :thumbsup:
Really gotta get my hearing checked :)

To be honest with ya, I'm yet to see all of Terminator Salvation. Guy at work downloaded it (can I say that here?) but it was a crappy copy (looked like someone had taken a camera into the cinema) and I just couldn't be bothered...

please dont get me wrong... i enjoyed the movie a lot, and all praise to jj for revitalizing the brand and franchise.

i thought the onion video was fantastic, and made a valid point.

that being said, it doesnt get away from the fact that the execution of the time travel idea was fundamentally brainless, surprisingly so, in a manner that goes way beyond plot holes, inconsistencies, and muddled motivations.

when i saw it again, i understood how jj could so completely miss the point of godzilla when he came to make cloverfield. the guy might be a genius when it comes to filmmaking style, but deep he isnt.

But... but... but, he reaches, Brother! He reaches!

Doesn't he...? :(


:p

I get exactly what you're saying and agree. I enjoyed the movie, but the time travel plot just doesn't pan out all that way. Sort of like ST:IV's time travel plot doesn't hold up all that well w/two major inconsistancies - Kirk's glasses and transparent aluminium. Those two issues are a paradox, as I understand the mechanics of that word, as they're some sort of time loop. Sorta like in "Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy" when we're told that Zaphod Beeblebrox is his own grandfather. ;)

Doesn't stop me from enjoying these movies, tho! :thumbsup:

An episode of DS9 also featured someone in an almost perfectly-normal 20th century wheelchair. I guess TOS Capt Pike was ahead of his time.Right. Stephen Hawking has an electronic voice synthesizer that speaks for him now, but the best they can do 350 years from now is a flashing light? :p

I'm sure nobody involved with the film would admit it, but I think Abrams' Star Trek was nothing more than an exercise for Paramount to determine a) whether or not anyone still cared about Star Trek (i.e., can we attract younger audiences?), and b) whether or not die-hard fans would accept new actors portraying the iconic characters. I think once they had a semi-serviceable plot (not great, but good enough) the main focus turned to determining just how many things they could change/modify/update without straying too far from the original concept and completely alienating the fans that made Star Trek a success in the first place.

Something posted caught me as funny. Aurora stated he liked it, his grown child like it, his wife, AND his girlfriend liked it! LOL I HOPE they didn't go see it together! hehehehe

Just an off the wall observance. LOL

Sincerely,
Scorp.

"Boldly GO!" ;) :wave:

I liked the new movie- PLUS I got a nice Star Trek Enterprise with the set!
An nice fresh start for the series!

Does anyone know what JJ was reaching for in some of the set designs?.
I noticed during the Kelvin evacuation scene that there were steel I beams and big round head rivets. I assumed he wanted to visualize old to new, but Bronx Bridge Beams? Also R2D2 is in the scene where Enterprise emerges from warp at Vulcan.
.
I must be contaminated as all my posts are ignored. Dont know why. Maybe I dont post enough.
Oh Well. I'll lurk.

Finally saw it tonight, and I managed to read absolutely no spoilers in the months since it was released, so I was surprised. I thought the movie was going to be an origin story that led more or less to the series. There would be inconsistencies, I knew that, because I knew Capt. Pike is in the film, and Kirk didn't serve under Pike in the series.

I didn't know it threw out the old continuity altogether, starting on the day of Kirk's birth. Plainly, the Enterprise crew at the end of this film is not going to experience exactly the same adventures as the original crew. Kirk will never meet Amanda, nor will he return his first mate's "katra" to Vulcan. When this Spock experiences pon farr, he won't have the option of returning to his home planet, but Uhura will be waiting for him just down the hall.

Heck, even the 24th century Treks won't happen in this continuity. Every single plot line that involves the planet Vulcan, or a Vulcan character, is either suspect or simply can't happen. Do you suppose Tuvok died when his planet was destroyed?

I'm only a fraction of the Trekkie I once was. I liked the series but generally can't sit through many of the episodes anymore. Loved several of the movies, particularly Wrath of Khan, which remains my favorite of the big-screen efforts. Still, my brow furrows a bit at the thought that future Trek movies, featuring the characters who've fascinated me for decades, will not have the fictional history of those characters.

At the same time, I recognize that the original Trek is over. I will always appreciate the hours and hours of fun I had because of it, and I hope a new generation can benefit just as much. I doubt it, but I'm rooting for it.

I enjoyed the movie and, for the first time since before the release of the abysmal Nemesis, I'm curious about what comes next.

I don't see what the big deal is--they could have destroyed ALL the Federation planets, you know. :freak: :D

I should get to see it in a couple of weeks. I'll try to be open-minded as you (Todd P.)were :thumbsup: and judge it on its own as looking at it in terms of continuity/compatibility/preferences.

I don't think Tuvok was quiiiite born yet at the time of this film. Wasn't he only something like 82 when V'ger started?

It was a FUN movie...Its not "our" Trek....thats OK...I too am looking forward to what is next.

I don't think Tuvok was quiiiite born yet at the time of this film. Wasn't he only something like 82 when V'ger started?

I don't remember his exact age, but the series included an episode showing him serving on Sulu's Excelsior during the events of Star Trek VI. It was his first posting, and he left Starfleet for decades afterward.

Meanwhile, I abandoned Voyager around the same time.

Still, my brow furrows a bit at the thought that future Trek movies, featuring the characters who've fascinated me for decades, will not have the fictional history of those characters.

At the same time, I recognize that the original Trek is over. I will always appreciate the hours and hours of fun I had because of it, and I hope a new generation can benefit just as much. I doubt it, but I'm rooting for it.That's pretty much how I felt upon leaving the theater, too. I was a bit stunned and surprised that they decided to jettison many of the best TOS & later episodes.

From the writer's perspective regarding future episodes, I can't believe that they've denied themselves such a fertile avenue of potential storylines and characters.

However, given the unlimited scope of potential SF concepts, I imagine that they can whip up the necessary transdimensional/cosmological contortions required to re-introduce Vulcan history into the franchise if it is ever deemed commercially necessary!

Remember there were about 10,000 Vulcans who survived the destruction of the planet, so you could still introduce some of the other Vulcan characters seen in the various series. But then again, why would you want to? I do think the new Trek team will cherry pick some story elements from the original continuity that can be played with and reinterpreted because that stuff will always spell good marketing to "the base." But I still shake my head at the idea that all of Trek history has been somehow destroyed--it hasn't. That entire universe is available any time we want it. Face it: even if Abrams had slavishly duplicated every detail of the original Trek universe, he HAD to recast the characters, so by their very nature these were going to be different people with different behaviors and physicality than the people we knew. What they did was to deal with that reality by finding a story that would (to an extent) account for those differences and create a justification to update the Trek universe for a new audience--and very clearly that experiment worked. They could have very easily just said screw you, fans, this is the new Star Trek so eat it. Instead they worked very hard to create a pathway between the old and the new to give the original Trek universe its due.

It seems to me that when people say it was a "fun movie", they mean that there was no pesky "thinking" required. Or, put another way, "it was a dumb movie". You go in, react, leave. Once having reacted, there is nothing to bring away from the experience. This is the same sort of entertainment value that a dog gets from chasing water down a driveway. It has fun for the moment but when the water stops, it is totally unchanged by the experience. Of course, movies are not life-changing experiences and I would never claim that they should be but I have always felt that good films send you home with something. A new thought, perspective, or challenge to your own world view. This, to me, is what was at the heart of the best of the original series (and many other classic genre films). This seems to be totally lost today in the rush to, well "rush". The new genre offerings seem to be little more than car chases set in space (or against some other background). You watch the chase, see the explosions, read the end credits and go out to tell people "it was fun" and how "good the effects are".

I remember a time, long ago now, when fans would discuss the concepts presented and evaluate their validity. Afterwords, they might comment on the "effects"...

It all seems very sad but I suppose this is the new reality. When people come to me and say that a film was "fun", I know that I won't be going to the theater to see it (usually). If however they come to me and say that a film "made them think" or better yet "was disturbing", that is the movie I will wait in line for.

When Star Trek is done right, it should make you think (just a tiny bit at least). This level of entertainment has yet to be achieved in the film offerings so far and is the reason that I am not a fan of them.

Just my opinion of course.

Since it seems to be "okay" to not be totally in love with this film now, I'll de-lurk and express myself. I admit that I did purchase the DVD. I did so with the knowledge that I still HATE the JJ'prise. However, by looking the other way when it appeared on screen, I made it thru the show, and actually enjoyed the story, the characters, and the actors. The Actors! I have VERY high praise for the Actors! I LOVE Chris Pine as Kirk! (Will he ever learn not to lead with his chin?) And the fellow who played MCCoy - My GOD he's GOOD! Surely DeForest Kelly was with him in all of his scenes. Loved the actress playing Uhura, she's wonderful! I felt pity for the poor sap playing Checkov, 'cause even though he's Russian, he still can't get beyond Walter Koenig's bad Russian accent! Simon Pegg as Scotty will surely grow on me with time. The fellow who played (young) Spock - ehhh... (I've never seen a Vulcan with a 5 o'clock shadow!) The lady who played Spocks' mother is very beautiful. I was moved at her death.

Storyline - more than a bit contrived. Nero was 'way overplayed. Even a Romulan in grief wouldn't have gone to such trouble. The Romulan ship was 'waaaay overboard! How did Nero know where and when to wait for Spock? Spock's ship was just weird. And Leonard Nimoy as old Spock - I know he's no longer young, but he looks like they took him from an old grave for the movie! Shatner still looks better than Nimoy at their current ages.

LOVED the green Orion girl!

Larry

Nemesis seems to have started a trend of overly huge Romulan ships with as many attachments and protrusions as possible.

And the fellow who played MCCoy - My GOD he's GOOD! Surely DeForest Kelly was with him in all of his scenes.

I thought Karl Urban was a brilliant piece of casting too, the odd thing is he looks much more like a young Gary Lockwood than a young Deforest Kelley.

I also really liked Bruce Greenwood as Pike. In fact, his speech to Kirk on why he should join Starfleet was more inspiring than anything said about Starfleet over the entire Trek history imho, and was one of my favorite scenes in the film. Kirk meeting McCoy was a close second.