Who is the person to ask about what is legal or not for drivetrain for a sprint and how is the best way to get ahold of them?

I have tried e-mail to a couple different people on the contact page of the QSAC web site but have not got a response.

Randy baker or fred murry call them up they will talk to you and help you out

Who is the person to ask about what is legal or not for drivetrain for a sprint and how is the best way to get ahold of them?

I have tried e-mail to a couple different people on the contact page of the QSAC web site but have not got a response.

What would you like to know?

What people have you tried to contact?
you can also check out QSAC.org also for the rules.

I got the rules Mike just curious about something.

Basically is it legal to put a cross shaft behind the motor and connect it to the clutch shaft with a gear to gear mesh and then have a belt from the rear axle to the cross shaft for a drive system?

What I'm after is a center belt drive instead of left side. They use this set up in Australia and I have been thinking looking at it.

I got the rules Mike just curious about something.

Basically is it legal to put a cross shaft behind the motor and connect it to the clutch shaft with a gear to gear mesh and then have a belt from the rear axle to the cross shaft for a drive system?

What I'm after is a center belt drive instead of left side. They use this set up in Australia and I have been thinking looking at it.
That will be legal. You must use a solid axle, no independent suspension but I'm sure you read that in the rules. This will work great for dirt. The early WCM sprinters had the final drive belt inside the chassis. Some were belt and some were chain along with a few with a skellenger quick change.:wave:

thanks Fred...that is how I read the rules just wanted to make sure....I see good and bad to doing it that way... a skellenger would be killer but pricey so who knows may be a interesting winter...lol

If I'm not mistaken the Vershuure brothers out of Iowa have that jack shaft system in their sprinters . You might want to get ahold of them and they could give you some help . The system makes sense to me especially on dirt , protects the belt from dirt build up .

They do run that system, dad /mechanic /crew chief phone number is 641-628-1562 www.veteransparkspeedway.com

thanks for the info...I like the center belt for sure just wonder how much cage would need modified and then what parts to use...so after season is over I will tear car down and see what develops

It seams to me that what draws people to 1/4 scale building/racing is the awsome level or "realism" that simply cannot be obtained in the smaller scale cars.

With that being said....................what are everyones thoughts about another "addendum" in the QSAC rules to allow the dirt racers to at least build their sprint car wings to the dirt car specs?

I know 1/4 scales on dirt are not as popular as asphalt (in the US) but still yet, why make the cars running on dirt build wings to asphalt specs? I think the dirt cars need the extra surface and the builders of dirt cars want to make their cars just as "scale" as the asphalt guys do.

Is that possible? Just a simple addendum on wings if running on dirt?

What do you guys think?

Jeff Harper

It seams to me that what draws people to 1/4 scale building/racing is the awsome level or "realism" that simply cannot be obtained in the smaller scale cars.

With that being said....................what are everyones thoughts about another "addendum" in the QSAC rules to allow the dirt racers to at least build their sprint car wings to the dirt car specs?

I know 1/4 scales on dirt are not as popular as asphalt (in the US) but still yet, why make the cars running on dirt build wings to asphalt specs? I think the dirt cars need the extra surface and the builders of dirt cars want to make their cars just as "scale" as the asphalt guys do.

Is that possible? Just a simple addendum on wings if running on dirt?

What do you guys think?

Jeff Harper

Jeff , I understand the question , and the scale appearing look you're trying to achieve . In last years rules changes for sprint cars ,pavement or dirt , the width was widdened out to 14 inches from 12 1/2 inches . I think scale would be 15 inches square . With the now present rules the side boards demensions are 18in.long by 7in. high , the cord ( center section ) 16 in. long and an overall width of 14 inches . Did anybody try that large of a wing on dirt ? , because of all the races I attended on pavement nobody used a wider wing than 12 1/2 although they could . You have a valid question and oppinion and what I would suggest is submit a rules change suggestion . Keep in mind what your group does or allows at local club races can be different than what is allowed at QSAC national events .

The wings that I build for my sprintcars, that run on dirt, have a 14.75 inch x 14.75 inch centre section. The max width at LQSS in Sydney is 15 inch and I have a 1/4 inch turnout on the right sideplate. Also the left sideplate, however that doesn't count. That's as close as I can get to 1/4 scale of the full-size sprintcars that run in Sydney, which are 60 inch x 60 inch, cord and span, plus sideplates.

Randy and Bob, thanks for the replies.

My understanding (and it could be wrong LOL) is the 14"x16" top wing and the 8"x6" front wing dimensions came from pavement car rules which makes sense because most cars are ran on pavement and I can also understand that most pavement guys run less wing then allowed as they have the traction but the dirt guys would probably all run the full size dirt wing centers of 15"x15" top and 9"x6" front and close to full size sideboards as they need all the traction they can get.

This is besides the fact we want to build our cars "scale" and it would be great if the rules would allow that.

Like you said Randy, we can always allow it at our local track but all our local racers are QSAC members and will probably go to a QSAC event like the one this year at Timberline.

I am certainly not going to try and make a big deal out of this at all but it would be awsome if QSAC would allow the dirt guys the option to build our wings to dirt specs. :thumbsup:

Shoot...then add the other 1,351 lbs to meet minimum weight too...LOL:p

This is besides the fact we want to build our cars "scale" and it would be great if the rules would allow that.

LOL tim don't mention that much weight sadler and davis might get an idea of a few hundred pounds for sprint

Michael,

I read your post on the Verteran's Park website regarding the two belt drive system. The best way to reach Jerry Verschuure is by calling his cell. It is 641-780-2225. I told him that you were curious, so he will not be surprised by your call.

Fred is right. The drive was used in the middle to late 80's. They were replaced in popularity by the skellinger rear ends. The manufactures eventually stopped producing them and so we have the current drive system that is commonly used.

Kevin Verschuure

Thanks Kevin I will call him sometime and talk to him then. I was just trying to keep from calling him out of the blue so to speak.

Thanks for his number.

LOL tim don't mention that much weight sadler and davis might get an idea of a few hundred pounds for sprint
Might be something for you to think about Willy...help keep your car straight going down the back stretch with only 4 laps to go....tough way to lose a race..LOL

Randy and Bob, thanks for the replies.

My understanding (and it could be wrong LOL) is the 14"x16" top wing and the 8"x6" front wing dimensions came from pavement car rules which makes sense because most cars are ran on pavement and I can also understand that most pavement guys run less wing then allowed as they have the traction but the dirt guys would probably all run the full size dirt wing centers of 15"x15" top and 9"x6" front and close to full size sideboards as they need all the traction they can get.

This is besides the fact we want to build our cars "scale" and it would be great if the rules would allow that.

Like you said Randy, we can always allow it at our local track but all our local racers are QSAC members and will probably go to a QSAC event like the one this year at Timberline.

I am certainly not going to try and make a big deal out of this at all but it would be awsome if QSAC would allow the dirt guys the option to build our wings to dirt specs. :thumbsup:
Jeff

Randy is right about you can run your own track the way your group or membership sees fit.. by all means grow your club they way you think is best. QSAC would love to see everyone run the same rules everywhere, but we are not big brother keeping an eye on everything every track does. QSAC understands that to grow our hobby we are dependent on the local level to be succseful. Just remember if you do stray from the QSAC rules to make sure your members and new guys are aware of what is going on and that when they attend a national event that they will have to make some changes to be legal in those events. I think if your group is all on the same page you guys should test the larger wings out and let us all know what the results are and what you found out. And like Randy said if you find it works better, make a suggestion to the rules committe to get the changes made. If this dirt class continues to grow, i see no reason why we cant add a rule for a DIRT WING.
mike

I don't know why you keep bringing that up mike and were did you finish? Owe I forgot you didnt

the difference there is i didnt take myself out...ROTFLMAO

just a note we have been running the 15 by 15 all year side boards are the same as the legal wing...

The cars look better with the big square wing it is scale and proportioned right for a ascs or outlaw dirt car.

as for how the car works comparing our 15 by 15 to a max legal 14 by 16 wing like we ran in Kansas....not a hughe difference but I think it is easier to get car balanced front to back with the square wing over the rectangle once you get the balance position right it is pretty even.

Jeff or Mike: Is using a tire warmer(s) a form of tire treatment?

..................

wow thats a good question id have never thought of it

Well unless I am missing something it states in Tires and Wheels ( 11.12.05) in section 7 No tire cleaners or tire traction treatments permitted. Tires may be cleaned with soap and water only.

When I read that statement I am under the assumption they are referring to a substance applied to the tire to enhance its traction ability. Such as Mr. Sticket or Red Dot.

That would mean the treatment is altering the natural state of the tire. So if you applies something a “ treatment” to the tire and it altered the traction status of the tire differently that what anyone else had I would say it is against the rules.

But could you construed that warming the tires, which they will do on their own in 10-15 anyways different from another competitor? I would say no. The only thing I see it doing is allowing them to go harder on their hot laps. And if they want to feel like a hero for those 15-20 laps so be it. By the start of the race everyone would be equal. Where as applying something to the tires if it stayed on that long it would not be equal.

I'm looking for QSAC officials opinion .... not yours. That's why I asked the question directly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm looking for QSAC officials opinion .... not yours. That's why I asked the question directly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is an open forum; I voiced my thought on the subject matter. :wave:

As usual....


I voiced my thought on the subject matter. :wave:

As usual....

I was thinking the same thing. Your almost funny, Are you going to get all bent out of shape again and remove me link from the web page again?

And correct me if I am wrong but aren’t the Co-Chairs Mike and Tony ? Jeff takes office in January is it I who is mistaken?

I'm looking for QSAC officials opinion .... not yours. That's why I asked the question directly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should have been asked in a privale message then.

these are public forums

LOl... I'm not bent out of shape here. I asked a direct question to Mike & Jeff who are both officials ... didn't say anything about them being Co-chair.

You are the funny one. Of all the others that read my question, you thought you were the only one qualified to answer it. Typical of you...

Na, I'm not going to remove your link. Your recent posts have open their eyes to the real Freddie.



I was thinking the same thing. Your almost funny, Are you going to get all bent out of shape again and remove me link from the web page again?

And correct me if I am wrong but aren’t the Co-Chairs Mike and Tony ? Jeff takes office in January is it I who is mistaken?

You are wrong son. I asked the question directly so that their reply would be public. They are officials and there for us to ask questions. They don't have anything to hide... they are the good guys. Should have been asked in a privale message then.

these are public forums

LOl... I'm not bent out of shape here. I asked a direct question to Mike & Jeff who are both officials ... didn't say anything about them being Co-chair.

You are the funny one. Of all the others that read my question, you thought you were the only one qualified to answer it. Typical of you...

Na, I'm not going to remove your link. Your recent posts have open their eyes to the real Freddie.

The real Freddie, humm That would be a really tall good looking guy, Lets see he built a track that people can come and race at. He is building cars at an affordable price. He stocks parts so people can get them when they need them. Oh that guy Yeah I agree he sounds really bad. But man is that guy good looking :dude:

I will leave you in your turmoil Timmy, It seems thats all you live for I am going to go do something prodctive. :wave:

That would be Mr. Timmy to you... LOL.:thumbsup:

The real Freddie, humm That would be a really tall good looking guy, Lets see he built a track that people can come and race at. He is building cars at an affordable price. He stocks parts so people can get them when they need them. Oh that guy Yeah I agree he sounds really bad. But man is that guy good looking :dude:

I will leave you in your turmoil Timmy, It seems thats all you live for I am going to go do something prodctive. :wave:

Ok, let me try this once again.

I have a question for MIKE SALDER and/or JEFF DAVIS ONLY. Is using a tire warmer a form of tire treatment in QSAC's eyes? Please, Jeff or Mike only answer here so that we as racers may know.

You are wrong son. I asked the question directly so that their reply would be public. They are officials and there for us to ask questions. They don't have anything to hide... they are the good guys.

If you are going to ask a question on a public forum you should know that you will get more opinions from other people. That is why these are public forums. I never said anything bad about the officials they have 100% of my respect, all of them (old and new) It is a job I would not want. I just don't think you should jump on someone for giving their opinion of their interpitation (spelling?) of the rules.

Please don't call me son.

I won't comment on this any further I have more important things I have to handle today. Have a good day folks.

Thank you....

I won't comment on this any further I have more important things I have to handle today. Have a good day folks.

Jeff or Mike: Is using a tire warmer(s) a form of tire treatment?

I'm not Jeff or Mike or Tony but as Eastern District director I'll give you my outlook on the rule and question. No tire warmers are not a treatment or additive so they are allowed. I personally don't see a real need for them.
Fred Murry:wave:

Fred, I appreciate your reply. Usually the ruling is: if is not in the rules, it's not legal. There is nothing about tire warmers in the rules so I would've thought they weren't legal. This article is the reason for my question. It leads one to believe there are advantages to heaters especially at the start of a race.Overlook what is says about pressures since we have hosts...



Benefits of Tire Warmers



Most racers want Tire Warmers to avoid cold tire incidents and to go fast right from the green flag. It is true that these are two clear advantages of using Tire Warmers, but there are other benefits that are equally important. A Tire Warmer provides the ability to tune and manage tires in the paddock beyond the grip offered on the opening laps:

Go Fast from the Green Flag
Set Hot Tire Pressures in the Pits
Avoid "graining" tires
Save "Heat Cycles" by keeping tire warm in between sessions
Tires last longerGo Fast

Hot rubber grips the track surface better since not only does the coefficient of friction increase, but the tire’s ability to form the track surface through "mechanical keying" is increased
Set Hot Pressures

Tires will increase in pressure about 20% on the track (ie: 10 to 12 psi) which makes a huge handling difference. CHR Tire Warmers will get your tires surface AND carcass into the proper temperature range (same as you’ll see on the track). Without Tire Warmers as many as 8-10 laps can be needed to get a tire to it’s proper "hot pressure".
Set the Tire Warmers to the temperature you anticipate seeing on the track, allow them to "heat-soak" for about 45 minutes and set the Hot Pressure. When you hit the track, there will be minimal change. Getting your Hot Tire Pressure set on the Tire Warmers gets you going right away
Avoid "graining" tires

Take a 70 degree tire and push it hard on the track; this will increase the very outer surface of the rubber in a few laps. However the rubber 2-3 mm down is not yet warm and not as elastic. This causes the outer rubber to grip the track surface and underlying rubber to rip or tear. This graining once developed in the tire almost never goes away and basically ruins the tire. By pre-heating the rubber cold tearing is simply avoided.
Save Heat Cycles

When tires are heated & then cooled, a change occurs that can be seen, measured and felt. On some tires you can actually see a blue haze form over the tire as some "oils" migrate to the surface and oxidation occurs. On other tires one might observe much drier grayish haze depending on individual tire composition. Putting the tire though these hot to cold cycles reduces the tires grip, hardens the rubber and reduces its useful life. A tire warmer can keep tires hot or simply warm between track sessions and reduce the amount of heat cycles a tire goes through. If the tire is to see more than one track session it makes sense not to allow that tire to cool all the way to ambient; this can extend how many sessions the tire can perform at near maximum grip. By operating in this manner the tire’s grip life is increased.
Tires last longer

Taking tires from ambient temperature and bringing them to race temperature on the track may take a few minutes depending on the machine, track and driver. Aside from giving up speed during these opening laps waiting for the tire to "come in", it is truly too fast to heat the tire in an ideal manner. For example on a 75 degree day, the driver gets the tire hot in 3-4 minutes and reaches a temperature of 165 degrees, this rise of 90 degrees in such a short time "heat shocks" the tire. Race compound tires have several "activator" chemicals in them and get set into motion with heat. Getting the tire hot quickly actually spends or wastes some of the chemicals and tires will lose grip sooner than if warmed slowly on a warmer.


I'm not Jeff or Mike or Tony but as Eastern District director I'll give you my outlook on the rule and question. No tire warmers are not a treatment or additive so they are allowed. I personally don't see a real need for them.
Fred Murry:wave:


Here is the link where the information come .... http://www.chickenhawkracing.com/karts.php

I would still like to get Jeff and Mike's opinions.

Well most of that info is not for 1/4 scale we don't have air in the tires and the rubber componds are way diffrent than actual race tire rubber

You must have skipped the top paragraph of my post. It clearly states "overlook the pressures since we have hosts." Anyway....how do they differ? They are both made of rubber, they both are affected by temperature and have their hardness measured the same way. Well most of that info is not for 1/4 scale we don't have air in the tires and the rubber componds are way diffrent than actual race tire rubber

People use tire warmers in all scales of RC racing as well as all full scale racing from go carts to full size cars. One could argue that there is a wide range of different compounds between all these tires but the end result is the same.

I'm not looking for a debate on tire heating but if you guys care to go there it can only be a better discussion than what has been posted here the last several days... LOL. If QSAC says it legal, then I think it should be added in the rules to clear things up. Preventing cold crash starts is the top reason for using heat... IMO.

What i have been told for years.That a 2 belt system.Will have too much drag.I disagree I know for years. Curt and Kevin V have be doing it.The drag theory might have been for the 1.25 hp.The new motors pushes at least 2 hp or better.
With a 2 belt system you guys.Could dial in your final drive.With more gear ratios.Than you can think of.
I did tell a guy at the first dirt Nat's.to use.A Raco quick change rear. The day i told him.He said it can't work.I made a suggestion.The next day back at the track.He called me over.He said."Ed i was up a good part of the night.Thinking about what you said.That could work." I said i always think out of the box.I don't like to follow what is already out there.I don't know if he tried it or not.
If i went with a 2 belt system.I would mount the gear in the center.In a fixed position.That would keep the axle from bending.Adding strength to the axle.
:cool:
ED

Wow
we must truley be in the OFF season now, i have noticed that when the racing season ends alot of us are still trying to win or should i say our competitive side turns to hobbytalk.
Tim
sorry took me so long to answer spent the day at the track yesterday, then off to watch some full size racing.
Tire warmers are allowed, and as of today Jeff is a QSAC co-chair, for those of you that did take time to read the ballot and or vote. That was a change made in the bylaws this year, when the old co-chair term ends and the new one begins.(Tony i am not calling you old..LOL) Nov 1st is the end and start date for incoming and out going co-chairs.

Please guys try and be civil with each other we all have opinions, and in this country we are all entitled to them right or wrong on what others think!

10/4 ... that's what I needed to hear. And hey, you don't get no time off! :freak:
I would also like ot congradulate Mike Clark on his move to the Eastern Division - Southern Region Director position.

No competition here. ... Nevermind....LOL

Wow
we must truley be in the OFF season now, i have noticed that when the racing season ends alot of us are still trying to win or should i say our competitive side turns to hobbytalk.
Tim
sorry took me so long to answer spent the day at the track yesterday, then off to watch some full size racing.
Tire warmers are allowed, and as of today Jeff is a QSAC co-chair, for those of you that did take time to read the ballot and or vote. That was a change made in the bylaws this year, when the old co-chair term ends and the new one begins.(Tony i am not calling you old..LOL) Nov 1st is the end and start date for incoming and out going co-chairs.

Please guys try and be civil with each other we all have opinions, and in this country we are all entitled to them right or wrong on what others think!

thanks for the reply Ed I agree with the drag not being alot of issue ( we can't hook it up that hard on dirt anyway) the 2 belt system is interesting but what I had in mind was a gear to gear mesh (say like a baja) going from the clutch shaft to the intermediate shaft then a single belt drive from the rear axle to the intermediate shaft....that way you could cover the gears which would be outside the frame and then the belt would be inside the cage and stay more or less clean.

I haven't gave up on the ideal but I'm starting to lean toward one more modification to the belt guard I'm using and staying with what we have working...since we have started getting alot of interest in what we are doing keeping the cars close to normal production cars may help convert some more pavement pounders to dirt.....:)

thanks for the reply Ed I agree with the drag not being alot of issue ( we can't hook it up that hard on dirt anyway) the 2 belt system is interesting but what I had in mind was a gear to gear mesh (say like a baja) going from the clutch shaft to the intermediate shaft then a single belt drive from the rear axle to the intermediate shaft....that way you could cover the gears which would be outside the frame and then the belt would be inside the cage and stay more or less clean.

I haven't gave up on the ideal but I'm starting to lean toward one more modification to the belt guard I'm using and staying with what we have working...since we have started getting alot of interest in what we are doing keeping the cars close to normal production cars may help convert some more pavement pounders to dirt.....:)MJS34 sorry i don't know your name.In the dirt.If we are talking about a sprint car.I had a simple,cheap, and quick fix.To get the car handle.It was a torsion bar car.So that might have helped my quick fix.I only told a a couple of guys.What i did.
The gear to gear setup can work.Then to keep the dirt. Out of the gears.Tim Mac. could make a vacuform a gear cover.I think he makes the ducts for the GN bodies.
To me the drive setup that all cars use now.Lose alot of HP.To get the car to work.The belt needs to be some what loose.For the bearings and suspension to be free.That is HP lost.

Just for augment sake.If one was to use a 11 tooth gear on the bell.The belt has only 2 or 3 teeth ingaged on the gear.If a 22 tooth more teeth ingaged. More Hp to the rear.The more the motor is moved foward in the car.One needs a longer belt.More HP lost with slack in the belt.Then less weight in the rear.To keep the HP to the track.

I should get picked on.Since i don't race.I guess i will take the pressure Off Jim Bell. I know he likes getting in trouble.Jim Just Kidding

ED