I would like to hear some opinions/experience of racing 1/4 scales on Asphalt or Concrete.

Before I start a rumor here, I am not sure I want to keep the Dirt Surface here at Timberline.

My work schedule is just killing me, and to keep up two dirt surfaces has become overwhelming.

The dirt oval is more popular for the 1/10th and 1/8th scales.
But it is not more popular for the 1/4 scales,(which "I" enjoy the most to race)

I plan on traveling with you guys next year to some of the NCS races so I will get some asphalt time with the GN.

And hosting the Dirt National's was one of the funniest things I have ever done in my life.

Will a asphalt/concrete 1/4 scale track be supported in Kansas City area?

If I left the dirt will 1/4 scalers want to give it a try?

It would be a huge investment/commitment to change to a hard surface. I really need some feedback from you guys to get a feel on how to pursue Timberlines future.
Thanks,
And please respond your thoughts.

Dave Smreker
www.timberlineraceway.com

Cost is a big difference as far as asphalt and concrete go asphalt is cheaper if you do your ground/base work right that asphalt track will be smooth for years I have run on a concrete 1/4 midget track a few times to practice on and there was more tire wear than on asphalt

Dave:
I think you have an excellent track. I'm not fond of dirt racing but after being at your facility I have given thought to giving it one more shot. I do preffer a hard surface. I have raced on asphault and concrete. Mini Indy is a concrete surface and had the advantage of not being sensitive to changes from sunshine or a lack of. It was a fun track to race. West Liberty was a combo where the center part of the turns were concrete with asphault the rest of the track. This made for some interesting setups. Freddies is an all asphault track and one of the smoothest tracks I have run on.

Dave
after we had our talk friday nite, i talked to the guys at our track saturday nite and i cant tell you how excited they were to here about you building a track that close to us. Ever since the Houston track closed and the Little Rock track stoped running, man we miss both of them! we use to travel to both as a club about 2 to 4 times a year each. i am sure we would do the same with your track if you decide to build one. i dont know which costs more concrete or asphalt but dont get talked out of putting down a good base for the track, we did and it is a problem we are paying for now. i hope you decide to do it, we all have our fingers crossed down here!!!

Will,I was wondering the same as far as the tire wear? I have asked my concrete sub-contractors I use in my real bidness and they suggested the use of sealers we use? But they are shiny slick looking?

Mike/Fred, Since you both have experience here,
If a hard surface is coming to T-Line would my existing track dimensions be ok?

Dave - Dirt is fun to race on for sure, I love it, but it has a lot of drawbacks. (I'm sure you of all people know these)
1). You have to continually water the track and run it in.
2). You have to repair the surface after every hard rain.
3). If it rains your pretty much have to cancel the race, where as banked asphalt dries fast and you won't get rained out.
4). Car maintenance is HUGE on dirt. (especially motors)
If you build a pavement track I feel you would get a good number of cars b/c now racers have the option of a "nascar type" car.
Build it, they will come.

Remember, with concrete you will have expansion joints that may (or not) rise up and down. So, if you ever wanted to run smaller scales it might create a big problem.

Good point Scott.
With our winters the freeze/thaw would cause heaving,

Dave - IMO, if you can get a positive answer to this question, it will make your decision worth the headache of studying the other questions.:thumbsup:

Also IMO, asphalt is the only way to go if you change from dirt.:wave:
Will a asphalt/concrete 1/4 scale track be supported in Kansas City area?

Dave Smreker
www.timberlineraceway.com (http://www.timberlineraceway.com)

Fish most of the problems I have seen since I have raced on both in 10th scale is the concrete dust when the track ages and that sealer for it can make the surface a slick nightmare but the track was usually slick with eather dust or sealer

On the asphalt being cheaper it is back when I did it 4 years ago you could get it paved for about 1200 dollars a truck that is labor and equipment included on a ready surface

Fish most of the problems I have seen since I have raced on both in 10th scale is the concrete dust when the track ages and that sealer for it can make the surface a slick nightmare but the track was usually slick with eather dust or sealer

Thanks Will,
Seems like this is a no brainer.

Asphalt would be the choice.

On the asphalt being cheaper it is back when I did it 4 years ago you could get it paved for about 1200 dollars a truck that is labor and equipment included on a ready surface

Will,
Wonder how much sqft2 you get from a truck? The wife Debbie is real interested in that answer!! LOL
I measured it this morning. I have a little over 12,000 sqft2 to do.

Also is 2 inch thick to thin?? What is the thickness of some of the tracks? When I go out for bids I will need to pass that on to the contractors.

Just don't cut corners with asphalt and it will be very nice for years you really need a layer of rock,1.5 to 2 inches of binder and .5 to 1 inch sealer depths varry do to ground prep

I forgot how much one truck holds we went buy tonage which was I think 14 tons per truck and forgot the formula for calculating it for depth lol

You might be able to get a killer rate on mix with the bad economy and lack of work and most people I worked with in asphalt were gear heads and might be interested in haveing a sign up at your track for advertising

Will,I was wondering the same as far as the tire wear? I have asked my concrete sub-contractors I use in my real bidness and they suggested the use of sealers we use? But they are shiny slick looking?

Mike/Fred, Since you both have experience here,
If a hard surface is coming to T-Line would my existing track dimensions be ok?

Dave:
I am sure that it would make a fine hard surface track. I will definately come run there. A race there one weekend prior to Knoxville would make for a fine prelude to going on up to Knoxville. Count me in.:wave:

Will,
Wonder how much sqft2 you get from a truck? The wife Debbie is real interested in that answer!! LOL
I measured it this morning. I have a little over 12,000 sqft2 to do.

Also is 2 inch thick to thin?? What is the thickness of some of the tracks? When I go out for bids I will need to pass that on to the contractors.

If I'm not mistaken I think all a tandem can carry is 15 tons. At 2" (.33) surface you will need 153 tons which would equal about 10 tandem loads.... tandem is not a trailer.

Don't quote me on this for its been a long time since I've bid asphalt! But like Will said base and topping are different.....and the subgrade work will make or break you!

And.... it would be really cool to have another close track to visit....that wasn't dirty!....LOL

Dave:
I am sure that it would make a fine hard surface track. I will definately come run there. A race there one weekend prior to Knoxville would make for a fine prelude to going on up to Knoxville. Count me in.:wave:

That would be great timing for a race. Then we could convoy 4.5 hours North.

If I'm not mistaken I think all a tandem can carry is 15 tons. At 2" (.33) surface you will need 153 tons which would equal about 10 tandem loads.... tandem is not a trailer.

Don't quote me on this for its been a long time since I've bid asphalt! But like Will said base and topping are different.....and the subgrade work will make or break you!

And.... it would be really cool to have another close track to visit....that wasn't dirty!....LOL

Yup that's about what I calculated up also. Maybe someone or (Freddie) can share if that 2" is sufficient?

As far as a base,living here in Eastern Kansas is a great benefit for Lime/AB3 Gravel. And a power plant being only 20 miles away, pot ash is free!

Me being such a patient person (LOL NOT) I have called 3 Asphalt Contractors to meet them later this week for proposals. LOL.

Thanks all for the fast feedback. Keep it coming if there is some ideas to share. Esspecially from the few who have raced here to give ideas for improvement to run the larger scaled cars.
Dave

I can tell you this much an asphalt track or any asphalt is only as good as the base you lay it on. I tossed around the cement or asphalt myself. With our winters such as yours I was not going to spend he money and then chance it lifting and being screwed. With the asphalt if something happened to it I felt it could be fixed a lot easier. As it is now I do not have one crack any ware in the track after 3 years and the traction seems to be getting better.

When the time comes to redo the track I am going to have them take the 2-inch of top coat off of it and just re-top it.

Our facility was a solid compacted base made up of mostly sand. a great drainage material. Then we used over 10 inches of rolled and compacted limestone. Then we put down 4 ½ inches of compacted asphalt base and then the two inches of topcoat. I can tell you the limestone was just about the same as the asphalt was. If your going to spend the money to do it DO IT RIGHT ! put the extra cost in and do a solid base.

I can show you pictures of all the steps and the material they used if you would like to see it

I say stay dirt....you have a nice track Dave and I know if you could get a set schedule planned for next year that worked with ours we would come up and race there some....I would even like to see a series or challenge between our two tracks say 2 races there and 2 here...I see possibility to help grow and maybe show more 1/4 scale racers how fun dirt racing is if we all work together...

either way I wish you the best of luck and remember you guys are always welcome to come run in the dirt with us.....we are generating a lot of interest and have new people come out to watch and look at every race so I know the inerest is there for dirt 1/4 scales just got to get them out to see how much fun it is...

Loven it in the dirt and staying there.....Micheal Stdham.....Coody Creek Speedway......Muskogee, OK

I can tell you this much an asphalt track or any asphalt is only as good as the base you lay it on. I tossed around the cement or asphalt myself. With our winters such as yours I was not going to spend he money and then chance it lifting and being screwed. With the asphalt if something happened to it I felt it could be fixed a lot easier. As it is now I do not have one crack any ware in the track after 3 years and the traction seems to be getting better.

When the time comes to redo the track I am going to have them take the 2-inch of top coat off of it and just re-top it.

Our facility was a solid compacted base made up of mostly sand. a great drainage material. Then we used over 10 inches of rolled and compacted limestone. Then we put down 4 ½ inches of compacted asphalt base and then the two inches of topcoat. I can tell you the limestone was just about the same as the asphalt was. If your going to spend the money to do it DO IT RIGHT ! put the extra cost in and do a solid base.

I can show you pictures of all the steps and the material they used if you would like to see it

Freddie thanks alot. I respect your advice in the highest degree.
If you would please send your pics to my addy:
dave@timberlineraceway.com
I have my first meeting with J&J Asphalt Thursday morning.
I would like to show him the examples of what you have done.
Thanks again Freddie.
Dave

I say stay dirt....you have a nice track Dave and I know if you could get a set schedule planned for next year that worked with ours we would come up and race there some....I would even like to see a series or challenge between our two tracks say 2 races there and 2 here...I see possibility to help grow and maybe show more 1/4 scale racers how fun dirt racing is if we all work together...

either way I wish you the best of luck and remember you guys are always welcome to come run in the dirt with us.....we are generating a lot of interest and have new people come out to watch and look at every race so I know the inerest is there for dirt 1/4 scales just got to get them out to see how much fun it is...

Loven it in the dirt and staying there.....Micheal Stdham.....Coody Creek Speedway......Muskogee, OK

Micheal you are so correct. I truly enjoy the dirt racing. And if I lived in Muskogee and someone else maintained the track I would continue to race dirt.

I just can't seem to keep up with the travel of my real job 3-7 days a week,maintain mowing and other chores required to maintain 80 acres, and take care of two dirt tracks to the level racers require.
Still be a farther of two and a husband to my wonderful wife.

Racing is my only hobby and relaxation.
This years weather and my timing of extra travel it is just to much to take care of by myself. By paving oval I have reduced my work time by 100%. Which means my play time DOUBLES!!

Now with all that said, I am just entertaining this idea and sharing with all my 1/4 scale friends my thoughts. If I thought I would get more support from the 1/4 scalers with a paved track over dirt and if I can get my finances in order I will differently lean more that way. I have been a track owner for 8 years now. I will say without any apprehension that 1/4 scale racers are more professional,understanding appreciated bunch in the whole radio control community.

Mike it may or may not happen in 2010? But if it does I will guarantee that I will not be throwing away any BRP Block Pattern tires so I can use them in Muskogee, Oklahoma
And Mike thanks for the kind words, you guys are a class act down there.
Dave

kinda be careful with the fly ash. that stuff has to be rolled alot to really set up before you cap it with something like 799 crush run, 825B base, 8910(limestone)

also who ever hauls in the fly ash for you need to be someone that has hauled it before and knows how that stuff acts. trucks and trailer turn over real easy when dumping that crap.

kinda be careful with the fly ash. that stuff has to be rolled alot to really set up before you cap it with something like 799 crush run, 825B base, 8910(limestone)

also who ever hauls in the fly ash for you need to be someone that has hauled it before and knows how that stuff acts. trucks and trailer turn over real easy when dumping that crap.

LOL yup you are right, I have seen more than one triple axle turtled on a jobsite. And it sounds like your formula is similar to what Freddie did?

After reading Freddies post I don't think I need to re invent the wheel.

I have a 4k# roller I use here now. It works pretty good. I also have access to heavy excavating equipment to borrow. Sheepsfoot roller and the like.

on a more positive note, having a paved oval track could attract 1/10 scale indoor racers from Springfield Mo, KC, and more to race. combine 1/4 scale and 1/10 scale in the program, you never know how many will switch classes and spectators to join in.

Dave,I can run either way you want. I only wonder about the Bajas. I know there are brp wheel adaptors, but that would become a pain switching from oval to offroad. I sure wish I lived closer, then I would come down and take care of your oval for you.

Dave,I can run either way you want. I only wonder about the Bajas. I know there are brp wheel adaptors, but that would become a pain switching from oval to offroad. I sure wish I lived closer, then I would come down and take care of your oval for you.

Hey Chris,
I was thinking that we could just use the street tire? Be cheap and should wear well.
I do have some of the BRP adapters though.

Yo Smerk - I did call u back. I'm here.

Say its not so! I wanted to run dirt again at your place!

A couple things to remember when building a track.
1). Slope the hot pit away from the track. That way the excess water will not run down the tracks surface.
2). Try to place the drivers stand so the sun is not in your eyes.
3). Try and keep the entire track in the sun as long as you can.
4). Make sure the handicapped driving area has air conditioning. :thumbsup:..LOL

Micheal you are so correct. I truly enjoy the dirt racing. And if I lived in Muskogee and someone else maintained the track I would continue to race dirt.

I just can't seem to keep up with the travel of my real job 3-7 days a week,maintain mowing and other chores required to maintain 80 acres, and take care of two dirt tracks to the level racers require.
Still be a farther of two and a husband to my wonderful wife.

Racing is my only hobby and relaxation.
This years weather and my timing of extra travel it is just to much to take care of by myself. By paving oval I have reduced my work time by 100%. Which means my play time DOUBLES!!

Now with all that said, I am just entertaining this idea and sharing with all my 1/4 scale friends my thoughts. If I thought I would get more support from the 1/4 scalers with a paved track over dirt and if I can get my finances in order I will differently lean more that way. I have been a track owner for 8 years now. I will say without any apprehension that 1/4 scale racers are more professional,understanding appreciated bunch in the whole radio control community.

Mike it may or may not happen in 2010? But if it does I will guarantee that I will not be throwing away any BRP Block Pattern tires so I can use them in Muskogee, Oklahoma
And Mike thanks for the kind words, you guys are a class act down there.
Dave

Dave: I bet you get some racers in from Nebr and Kansas that races the Cornbelt Series. Its closer for me and Hank T to race if it was paved. If you are thinking about going pave, let me know and maybe we can set you up in the Cornbelt series aong with Fort Dodge, and Algona. Last year they had a Cornbelt Race in Cedar Rapids Iowa. The series draws a lot of cars in the midwest.

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

I can tell you this much an asphalt track or any asphalt is only as good as the base you lay it on. I tossed around the cement or asphalt myself. With our winters such as yours I was not going to spend he money and then chance it lifting and being screwed. With the asphalt if something happened to it I felt it could be fixed a lot easier. As it is now I do not have one crack any ware in the track after 3 years and the traction seems to be getting better.

When the time comes to redo the track I am going to have them take the 2-inch of top coat off of it and just re-top it.

Our facility was a solid compacted base made up of mostly sand. a great drainage material. Then we used over 10 inches of rolled and compacted limestone. Then we put down 4 ½ inches of compacted asphalt base and then the two inches of topcoat. I can tell you the limestone was just about the same as the asphalt was. If your going to spend the money to do it DO IT RIGHT ! put the extra cost in and do a solid base.

I can show you pictures of all the steps and the material they used if you would like to see it


Freddie thanks for the pictures you sent. It will help explain to the contractors that will bid the project.
Dave

Check out www.veteransparkspeedway.com , they have a very nice track, area of run off befor you hit the fence.

man have you ever seen a more beautifull race track good job

We are always looking for ways to make it better, we host the corn belt series, the most presteges series in Iowa and maybe the upper midwest.
We also host the Bolink Legands nationals for the electric cars.
The track is located in a city park so the key can be signed out any time to practice. Top classes are sprint cars and sportsman

man have you ever seen a more beautifull race track good job
Pictures dont do it justice...and pit road, one of the nicest i have ever seen!!

wow thats cool that a city would let you do something on there land with those bad bad bad race cars lol

The city not only gave the land they also donated lights and poles for night racing, the ccement work was donated, and the reaminder of the track was donated buy donations and signs. Motel and restrant right accross the road, Kmart , HYvee and more restrants right accross the bridge. Boat ramp and fishing in the same parking lot, ball dimonds and playground equipment in the park as well as a shelter house with a meeting room, Not Bad for a town of 5000, plus.

Those people from IOWA know how to do things right...LOL

Is that why they moved you to Texas? LOLThose people from IOWA know how to do things right...LOL

"kinda be careful with the fly ash. that stuff has to be rolled alot to really set up before you cap it with something like 799 crush run, 825B base, 8910(limestone)

also who ever hauls in the fly ash for you need to be someone that has hauled it before and knows how that stuff acts. trucks and trailer turn over real easy when dumping that crap.
__________________
Daniel "

THIS explains a LOT of why there is a question on our pre-quote survey for end dump haulers - goes something like: Do you haul any of the following: fly ash, offul, hides, loose metal.... :)

Somehow I guess that the company may have had some 'experience' in these areas and the hazards of unloading!

Is the septic tank moving voluntarily or is it going KICKING AND SCREAMING??? :wave: Last time I was down it was pretty stationary!!!! :)

OMG:
I eye opening experience,
There will be no asphalt at Timberline Raceway any time soon.
WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY expensive if done right.

I will just be hauling my Pro 1 Grand National to Texas,Iowa and Ohio next year to get my asphalt fever to go away.

So Mike,Jason and Darrell whats the name of this Midwest Quarter Scale Dirt Oval Series?

And when do we start!!!!!

LOL....Quarters on Dirt.....Tornado Alley....State Line...LOL...who knows but it will be fun for sure....we got 2 more racers going for cars this weekend to get ready for next year so that puts us in the 10 car range down here if everybody makes it out

next time I see Darrell I will hit him up with my ideal...

I have also heard a rumor that Frankie (Coody Creek owner) may rent a arena and have a few kart races this winter and if that happens we may run a few also....I'm kinda torn on the ideal I want to run but I could use some time to tear down and prep for next season also....so we will see how it develops

we still got 2 races left if the weather hold OCT. 17 and OCT. 31

Ya it would be fun. I think the baja's are really catching on for oval also. And with the potential of 18-20 entries combined for the quarters and almost as many baja's would be a blast!!