I have brought this subject up before, and have had some input from you racers about bring back the sportsman class for new racers getting into nitro. I initially put a proposed set of "specs" on here and got a lot of ideas from you guys. What I have done, is sit down and tried to put together a viable class for beginners just getting into nitro oval, without having them spend lots of additional money moving up to the pro class when they are ready. Here is my idea, so let me know what you think.

SPORTSMAN CLASS
Same rules and specs as the nitro sportsman class rules now posted on the GASCAR web site, with these exceptions:

Engine: Dynamite 12SPD, stock, out of the box, with either the Associated or Losi clutch setup (stock configuration).

Muffler: HPI A870 with stock baffle in place, with NO modifications. Must have a stinger on the exhaust outlet that points straight down, and measures at least 1-1/4" in length from the bend (stock aftermarket). Mitch from Mobile Hobbies can verify this length.

Fuel: Sidewinder 16% Race Blend. This is manufactured by Morgan Fuels and has a nitro content of 16% and oil content of 12%. The fuel will be provided at the track, by GASCAR, in a community jug, and tanks will be filled in the pits prior to racing.

Gearing: Fixed gearing of 17/60.

All other specs are provided on the GASCAR website, under the original sportsman rules.

Its an idea, guys, and a place to start, BUT IS NOT OFFICIAL! Let me know what you think.

Tim Smith, President
GASCAR

As a electric racer looking from the outside in...this will certainly help out us new guys into the gas realm.If we can get some races in the midwest I'm sure this class will come to life bigger than you would expect.

Tim...if you get a chance,send me a PM.Floyd said he contacted you and I'm wondering how things are looking.

sounds like a good start tim. i am going to be testing the dynamite w/ some different fuels soon, so ill let you know. some other ideas i have are maybe cot bodies,spec tires and the 50oz weight or even heavier.

Kevin,
I did not receive a message from FLoyd....... maybe I just overlooked it, but have him contact me again, please.

James,
I think the 50 ounce minimum weight limit is a good idea, along with the mandated tires. I am not sure how the COT body would work, as it is so vastly different from the ones we run in the Pro Pan class. I might have to just buy one and test it. But, I like the 50 oz minimum weight. Maybe mandate pinks all the way around, with a Net for the right sides.

Tim

Tim

PM me what email address I can use and you & I can work on this.Floyd is a busy guy with his normal job...so we can work together with some dialog on the possibilities.

I know you're working on the schedule and it needs to be completed in a certain time frame.We're ready to step up...so forward an email address I can use or we can set up a phone call.

Kevin -- You can reach Tim via Coyotekars@aol.com

another suggestion, let the pro drivers also run sportsman if they want to, they are already at the event, plus it would help car counts, but maybe make them carry a extra 2-4 oz weight if they are also entered in pro class so as to even it out a little. this also give the sportsman drivers a chance to rub fenders w/ pro guys. i know i like to run 2 classes at most races.

I am going in a completely different direction with our .09 replacement for Easley, and hopefully other tracks. I would like to see GASCAR adpot the set of rules that I come up with for their sportsman division, but that is up to Tim and the rest of the GASCAR members. Personally, I see very little that I like in the proposed GASCAR Sportsman rules package. I will let everyone know how my testing goes tomorrow, and I have outlined what I am going to start with, and why, on the .09 replacement thread, and we can go from there.

Sam

The purpose of the Sportsman class is for new racers getting into nitro. I don't think a pro pan racer would or should race in the sportsman class....... it will scare the new racers off. If they can't compete, or don't have a chance to win, due to pro pan racers winning all the time....... then why bother? The purpose of establishing a sportsman class in the first place is to have a class that will give new racers from either electric, off road, or other venue a place to start nitro oval. The .09 class (as it stands now) is not the division to use for new racers. One of the reasons i have heard that prevent racers from racing nitro oval is the speeds and high level of competition. They don't think they can come in and have a chance at all. There needs to be a learning curve for new racers. I do appreciate your input from everyone so far, and we will continue the discussion at Rock Hill to see what we have to offer. Thanks, guys.

Tim

while i understand your stance tim, why would we, people like me and sam want to spend our time and money to develop a class, then be told we cant run in the class. we would be basically throwing money away. i like to be able to run 2 classes after driving 6-8 hrs or more to race, it makes it more worth the drive. by doing this you are basically limiting car counts, because no one can run more than one class in gascar period.

i think the weight penalty thing would even this out, whatever the base weight we agree on, make the pro drivers carry more. say 44 for sportsman drivers and 48 for pros in sportsman class. i do see the point of the heavier weight of 50 causing tire wear issues.

while i understand your stance tim, why would we, people like me and sam want to spend our time and money to develop a class, then be told we cant run in the class. we would be basically throwing money away. i like to be able to run 2 classes after driving 6-8 hrs or more to race, it makes it more worth the drive. by doing this you are basically limiting car counts, because no one can run more than one class in gascar period.

i think the weight penalty thing would even this out, whatever the base weight we agree on, make the pro drivers carry more. say 44 for sportsman drivers and 48 for pros in sportsman class. i do see the point of the heavier weight of 50 causing tire wear issues.

Well then get you a Super Truck 1/10 Nitro class going. The idea of a Sportsman class is for new drivers only and to keep GASCAR going with new members.
You have got to offer a new racer somewhere to race other the the Pro Class. That would leave GASCAR with the Pro Class, Super Trucks and Sportsman.
Tim is correct by mandating ratio & tires, fuel and maybe other things. Good Idea Tim.

James,
I didn't say you couldn't run in the sportsman class, or any other class. My stance is that we have to offer a class for the newly interested racers in order to have more racers come into nitro oval. Just having the same racers running two classes does not increase the numbers of racers, just the number of cars. Maybe we need two new classes? I am now throwing water on your ideas, I welcome them, but we still need a class for new racers, and give them a chance to compete equally. If we don't, then our numbers are not going to grow at all.

GASCAR is a racers organization......... its whatever the majority want that moves it. Bring your ideas to the Rock, and lets look at them. I have always been open to new ideas and suggestions. If we need two new classes, then we need two....... lets take a look at it.

Tim

The reason GASCAR stopped running the Nitro Touring class, was because one racer had a never ending pocket book, and racers got tired of traveling 6 hours just race for second. He basically killed the class, because he always won, hands down. We ran the sportsman class for the first three years, but drivers moved up into the pro pan class, and only left two racers in the sportsman class. We failed to get new blood into nitro oval. What I have been hearing from most of our racers, is that we need new racers coming into the sport. To do this, we need to offer them something so they can compete. Not sure if trucks is the answer, but we need to come up with something.

WHOA!!!!!!

IMHO and not so secret opinion. GASCAR does NOT need to start adding several more classes. Have you guys not learned anything from the electric debacal called Oval Racing? Sheesh! How many classes are there in electric 10? 20?

I have not commented on this as of yet simply because I have no plans at all to run that class. But here are some things I can see that are going to KILL it.

I do not agree with the 50oz weight rule. I think it is going to make for shrapnel on the track due to weight coming off the car. That and adding a mere 2oz, to the chassis is not going to slow it down near as much as one might think.

You want to slow this class down, then take away the thing that makes them run. Fuel, well really the nitro content. Drop that Nitro content and then you have cars with less power.



Sam I think you are on the right path of restriction. From some conversations I have had with people more knowledge on these engines than I, they have warned me on restricting the exhaust too much. The problem that will arise will be flame-out issues due to the combustion chamber not being able to evacuate itself of the spent gasses. So with you restricting both the input and output, you may be onto something.

As far as getting converts. I really do not think it is an issue of them fearing they cannot compete. I think it has more to do with they have so much invested in electric and have larger turnouts in those classes that they do not want to build up a car to race only once or twice a year.

The solution is for some of these tracks to build up a racer-base, simple huh? Just think if Easley had 5 or six NEW guys that ran Nitro every week, Rock Hill added some, The track in Indy and Pa, added 5 or 6 each. Suddenly we have 20-25 NEW nitro pan guys. Wouldn't that be cool?

As far as the .09 class having a replacement engine, that is DIFFERENT that a sportsman class.

I do not see any problem what so ever with anyone that is running .15's running the new .12(.09) class. Any of us running sportsman. NO WAY, NO HOW.

The .12(.09) class only needs to be different from the .15 class in terms of speeds. If there is going to be a "spec" tire or gear, that can be debated between you guys that run it.

For the SPORTSMAN/BEGINNER class, this class needs to be structered in such a way that is is EASY to run, EASY on equipment and FUN!!!

Run a low Nitro fuel, SPEC the tires/body/wing and gear. Also run shorter races for them. That will take some of the pressure off of them. Make the race length so fuel mileage is a non issue and well as tire wear.

By the way, the three classes discussed in my thread already exist uner current GASCAR rules. .15's, .09s and sportsman. :D

I am now going out to the trailer to work on my car so I can kick Roger and Kevin's rear-ends at Rock-Hill.

Look out you two, I am coming loaded for SMURF.

i do like the pro,truck,and sportsman idea. im game to slap a truck body on w/ a dynamite motor on lower nitro content. 3 classes would allow stepping stones for the sportman to move up and run a little w/ the pros w/ the same motor just change body, when they feel they are ready to move up, but not quite to pro nitro.
i know some think 3 classes is going to decrease numbers, but i dont think it will under this format. the pros are still going to run pro, but may add truck as a second class. then sportsman sould hvae their own class, but they could also run trucks as second class if they wanted.
i know some will think my ideas are crazy, but hey we are in america and everyone has their own opinion. i do think 3 classes is the upper limit in # of classes needed, but still promote growth of the series. also maybe include 1/4 scales, as they have there own following.

I don't see a problem with running a .12 class, and a .15 class, and an .09 class. The .12 class can be the sportsman class that already has rules on the GASCAR website. The .09 rules are also posted. Just make an engine change on the sportsman rules and VIOLA! My whole idea was to create a class for new racers just getting into nitro. If a .12 class is what is needed, then I suggest tweak the GASCAR sportsman rules a bit and we have it. I have been researching fuels the past week or so, and am looking for a good low nitro fuel to use in case that is what we need.

We already have rules established for the .12 and .09 classes. Why not just make the necessary changes and we have it?

I do not see a problem with tweaking the classes already in place, not at all.

James,
your ideas are not crazy!! This is the way we make changes, by everyone having input. Please check out the GASCAR website, www.gascarnitroracing.com, under the "Rules" heading. I have tweaked the Sportsman rules a bit, but nothing is final. I just wanted them posted for all to see. I do think we need to include the OS12CV engine, since we all have a box load of them. I would prefer we stay with the rules we already have, but just modify them to make them current.

Tim

PS. 1/4 scale and electric have always been included in our programs.

James,
I do need a contact person or website for Rosewood Raceway. Can you give that to me?

Tim

i dont think you quite understand what sam and i are trying to do. we are trying to find a replacement engine for the .09 class, due to big variations in motors. i do think there should be a sportsman only class, but also a slower class (about .09 speed) for everyone to run.

rosewood contact: www.glennshobbycorner.com

okay, James,
Maybe i misunderstood. I never raced the .09 cars, so I am a rookie when it comes to those. I do know that the Hornet engine required a lot of work to make it work, so I think that had something to do with the decline of the class. Go ahead and work toward a replacement engine for that class, and keep me posted.

So, let me get this straight.......you and Sam are working at replacing the current .09 class with another engine... ie the Dynamite 12. Is that correct? This class would replace the current .09 class. Is this correct?

If so, then I will go ahead and work on a novice class for new racers.... that way, we wont overlap in rules.

yes, i think that gets everyone on the same page now.

we are working w/ the dynamite motor for .09 replacement.

it is a good motor and i think it would work great as sportsman motor w/ say, a .100-.120 restrictor and a set gear. it may not need to be restricted too much if the baffle is required in the muffler. i think sam and i will be able to offer some insight to help you, after we do some testing.

if this was speced as the sportsman motor, then the transition to move up to the .12 dynamite class would be simple when the driver feels they are ready.

sam- are you gonna have a .12 car ready to test at rock hill? i think i can get mine together in time to do some test runs with you.

As a racer that had to run sportsman .09 the first year I went nitro, I would like to tell you what I liked and disliked in the rules at that time.
1. weight had to be 48 oz. I had to add 3 oz of lead to my car. It is almost impossible to find somewhere to mount it. The extra weight just wore out tires faster and broke more parts in a crash.
2. spec cap tires are ok, but I think the 4 pink rule may be better if you can use stager.
3. I thought the 17/60 gear rule was a good way to slow the cars.
4. the stock stinger was also a good method to keep speeds down.
5. Let the racers use the same body and wing as the rest to help make the cars handle.
The COT with out the larger wing would be a handful. Also the splitter on the front may not last long in a crash. Maybe just have the bodies cut on the trim line and no raking.
One other problem was. If at a race I was the lone sportsman racer, I did not get to race. This happened quite a few times. James’s idea of allowing others in the class could help keep that from happening.

I did take this year off from nitro. Now with Rosewood open I may go nitro next year, but I would like to see what the .09 or a slower class than .15/12 will be.

This is just my opinion
I could be wrong
It has happened before.

I have to agree with Larry on this. I don't like the idea of adding weight and spec tires.
If you run any other classes you would be stuck with spec tires.
That is the main reason I did not run the 21.5 pro class at easley.
Keep it as simple as possible with the motor and let the tires and body rules stand as they are in my opinion would be best.

I think the spec tires should ONLY be, if there are any, used in the SPORTSMAN/beginner class. Maybe not even the "SPEC" tires but like Larry said, pinks on all 4 corners, nets on the right. That way they are able to use those tires in other classes. Personally, I cannot stand to be told what tires I must run. To me that is part of the game, getting the right tire combo on the car. Now, if the tires are free... :D

The confusion came when discussing a "sportsman" class setup being set up and run by Sam and James. Now that I see they are aiming at restructuring the .09 class, I say go for it.

I think we can use what you guys learn from testing the Dyn. 12's to incorporate that into a sportsman rules package that keeps that class simple and easy to get into.

As I see it, for GASCAR 2010, we have three classes...... Nitro Pro Pan/15 -- Nitro Sportsman Pan/12 (novice) -- and Nitro Dynamite Pan/12 (replacing .09)....

Is that what you guys are looking at??

yes that what i see too. a class for everyone. may i suggest names for classes.
sportsman,limited and pro just to keep it simple when talking about different classes.

I hate to do this.......

But we may need to talk mufflers, again.

The HPI seems to be in short supply. I should have a muffler very similar to it in my hands Wednesday. It is made by CEN.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTAE4&P=7

I am going to bolt it up and see if there is a difference between it and the HPI. Right now I have no idea if it includes a baffle or not. If it does not, that is a very simple solution. We just add one.

BTW--:thumbsup::thumbsup: on the class names and differences in them.

Now how about we make Roger and Sam spot the rest of us about 5 or so laps. ;)

yea, i went to order my hpi yesterday at lhs and they are backordered. let me know about the cen when you get it scott.

I have an extra HPI if you need to use it at the Rock

ive got one, but the baffle is m.i.a. if you have one w/ the baffle i would like to try it on the dynamite.

Everyone check out my Dyanmite .12 testing report on the .09 Replacement thread.

I certainly see why we may need a third sportsman class for the beginners. The biggest concern I have about it is one that Larry brought up, and that is getting enough to run. This class would have to be made up entirely of new racers, who are few and far between these days. Because of this, I suggest that for next year we have just the current .15 Pro class and the limited .12 class that me and James are working on. Then, if the need arises, we can add a sportsman class for the newbies. I can say that the car I was testing yesterday would make for a smooth transition from electric racing, and was very easy on tires. That doesn't mean that we can't come up with a set of rules for a sportsman class if we need it.

James, I'm not going to put just any of my cars down at Rock Hill because of its destructive properties, (I'm putting together an old car to run in the .15 race) so if you want to borrow my baffle to test the .12 there you can. Let me know if you want any of the restrictor plates we have came up with as well.

Sam

yeah, i was thinking about running my gen 1 car there for that reason. but if we were going to try the dynamite, then i was going to try it on the gen 1 and race my gen 2. now i dont know what to do???

btw, i have a few .170 restrictors. that may just be the ticket!

Can you but the .170 restrictor ?

Sam,
I have already revised the Sportsman 12/ Division rules just in case new racers come on board in 2010. Its strictly for newbies, so they are taken care of. We just need to vote on them at rock hill. You and James continue your testing, and present an idea for rules to me at Rock Hill. I left a place for them on the website.

Mitch the .170 restrictor from Associated is no longer made.

I have had a machinist make several .120 restrictors that I need to pick up. All we would have to do is drill them out to the diameter we wanted.