Just an idea to throw. To get things even how about a Dynamite .12 with an HPI muffler w/baffle and 10% fuel to help get a starter class going.

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

I think that sounds good Kevin. I talked with James about it this weekend and we are both going to do some testing, him at Rosewood and me at Easley. We will have to calm one of the Dynamite .12s down, and I'm not sure if 10% fuel or a restrictor will be better. The fuel could be tough to keep in check, but restrictors are hard to find. We will just have to do some testing, but that is looking like the best option right now. I don't know of any small engines that will not require a lot of changes in the flywheel, clutch, and engine mount areas. I definitely think that something needs to change, because there is just too much variance in .09 engines.

Its something to think about............ lets hear some other ideas.

Kevin,
Maybe a Dynamite .12, with 10% fuel AND a mandated restrictor. Both the fuel and restrictor would be handed out before each race, and then returned after the race. We could have the restrictors made with a stamped number on them, and log them in and out . GASCAR would have to distribute the fuel, just like we did at the 2007/2008 NATS. HPI muffler with baffle in place (teched before and after mains), and possibly a fixed gear, maybe a 17/60. I hate the idea of fixed gears, so that is my least favorite option. Just some ideas.

Tim

How would he fuel be any harder to police than it is now?

IF 10% fuel makes as big of a difference as we hope, then that racer that needs to run illegal fuel to compete or win should be run off and banned.

I mean really, cheating at this? Give me a break.

I personally do not like too many mandates. I am hoping that the 10% fuel and he more restrictive HPI muffler will do he trick.

If you try to tech fuel, you will need mercury floats, so I don't think it would be worth the trouble, also 10% isn't allways easy to find. If you make people run restrictors, someone will have to have them made and keep a supply of them, been there, done that, not doin it again. Anyone need any custom made 09 stuff?
The best option I've heard so far is the Dynamite SPD.12, DYN6508. It has the Associated crank, so the gears and clutches we all run will fit. Have everyone run the HPI A870 muffler with the baffle. That way everything is "off the shelf", not hard to get or to tech. I don't think it would be, but if they are still too quick, put it on a set gear. It wouldn't take long to find a gear to slow them down some, easy to tech.

Choose one brand/percentage of fuel. Have a community jug in the pits. Just before the main, require all racers to pour their fuel bottle into the jug. Then allow everyone to pull from that jug. Everyone now has the same fuel for the main. :)

Kevin,

Got my Car ready?
I'm ready to Kick me some Benji Azz. You know the Loser!
Lets go show James how to run Too!

Kenny

By The Way, Anyone looking for a Mini Stock Race car??

Hey Kenny,

In order for you to put a WHUPPIN on Benji he is going to have to show up at a race. :D

Hopefully the car was ordered. But I can get another KSG ready to run when it gets here.

Hey Kevin -- check your pm box

Hey Kev.
Was the car Ordered?

I'm planning on going to Easley to test the Dynamite .12 this weekend. My goal is to get it close to the speed of a good .09, which would be running 5.7s. I've got stuff to try, we'll just have to see what it takes.

I do not see any problem with you getting that engine to go that fast. I think the challenge is going to keep it from going faster.

That's what I meant, Scott. I going to have to see how much restriction on the carburetor and muffler it takes.

GASCAR,

One cheap easy way to restrict the muffler flow would be to drill a hole through both sides of the stinger of a HPI muffler, drop a 4-40 screw through it with a lock nut. That should restrict the flow a lot. Would that be OK with the GASCAR folks? That would mean no one even had to buy a another muffler to run another class. Drop in the screw to run the .09/.12 and take it out to run .15, easy to tech.

well i bought another dynamite motor this weekend that i can dedicate to testing now. ive got to get another hpi muffler, b/c mine has no baffle, but the testing will begine soon. on the fuel situation, has anyone ever tried to 0% fuel, wonder how that would work. i guess we could call it alky pan then. lol!!

i can speak on the durability of the dynamite motors though. we have been running them in our local nastruck class for about a year now and have had no issues. thats on a 4wd tc3 at 4lbs, so we are testing them hard! ive had mine since beginning of season and it still has so much compression i cant turn it over w/ thumb when cold, and i will guarantee i have not cut it any slack at all! also idles perfect, i have to shut it down "every" time.

Seems like it would be better to restrict the exhaust to lower power?
Leaving the carb alone might make it easier to keep tuned?
Just ideas for thought.

Ok, what I am going to test tomorrow is for an engine to replace the .09 engine that runs similarly just more consistently. My car is going to weigh 45-45.5 ounces because I weighed an .09 engine and then the Dynamite .12 and the .12 was almost exactly 1 ounce heavier. I am going to use the HPI muffler with the baffle. If that does not slow it enough, we have made some restrictor "plates" of different sizes. Me and Pop have put a lot of thought into this, and we want to keep the intake and exhaust restriction balanced, instead of nearly closing one end and leaving the other one completely open. If these work, they will be extremely cheap and easy for a machine shop to produce because of their simplicity. Gary, the only thing that would make the carb stay in tune is consistent weather. Whether restricted or unrestricted, temperature, humidity, and altitude will affect carb settings. While the altitude will stay the same during the race, the temperature and humidity usually do not. I want to keep this class relatively easy to drive and easy on tires, as it is now. It is a good entry level nitro division, especially for racers coming from electrics, because you can go out and at least make laps and not tear up tires, even if the setup is far off.

Sam

Ok, what I am going to test tomorrow is for an engine to replace the .09 engine that runs similarly just more consistently. My car is going to weigh 45-45.5 ounces because I weighed an .09 engine and then the Dynamite .12 and the .12 was almost exactly 1 ounce heavier. I am going to use the HPI muffler with the baffle. If that does not slow it enough, we have made some restrictor "plates" of different sizes. Me and Pop have put a lot of thought into this, and we want to keep the intake and exhaust restriction balanced, instead of nearly closing one end and leaving the other one completely open. If these work, they will be extremely cheap and easy for a machine shop to produce because of their simplicity. Gary, the only thing that would make the carb stay in tune is consistent weather. Whether restricted or unrestricted, temperature, humidity, and altitude will affect carb settings. While the altitude will stay the same during the race, the temperature and humidity usually do not. I want to keep this class relatively easy to drive and easy on tires, as it is now. It is a good entry level nitro division, especially for racers coming from electrics, because you can go out and at least make laps and not tear up tires, even if the setup is far off.

Sam

I'm with you on this. I don't agree with adding alot of weight (50oz). Seems like that is not the way to go. Just more wear on the tires etc.

Here is what I found testing yesterday. First, the Dynamite .12 is a very impressive engine. After 6 tanks of fuel it is still not fully broken in, compared to an .09 that would be half worn out by then. I started with no carb restrictor and the HPI muffler with the baffle in. I used my .15 car, which is built a little more hefty, so even after removing 2oz of lead still weighed 46oz. My .09 car would weigh less. Anyway, I found out real quick that it would need carb restriction, as I ran 5.5's. The interesting thing was that with the light car I was doing it without lifting. So I put in a .202 restrictor plate that we made, and that calmed it down. I was running consistent 5.7s. However, I was truly trying to get all I could out of this, so I worked on the car setup. That, combined with the engine breaking in a bit more, had me running 5.6's again. So we changed to a .182 restrictor, and it is pretty close. I ran consistent 5.7's, and the car felt a whole lot like a good .09 engine. At the very end of the run, when the fuel was low and it was leaning out, it popped a few 5.6's out. The .182 is close, but I need to do more testing with the engine broken in more. I think we will end up somewhere between .160 and .180. All of this was done on 20% fuel for two simple reasons: I had 20% fuel, and couldn't easily get any 10% car race fuel. I think we should stay on 20% because it makes the engine happy, is what everyone already has, and is very easy to find more. If any one wants to see what our restrictor plates look like let me know and I'll post a picture. I let Carolina Tim Smith, Pop, and JT all drive this combination, and they all liked it, said it felt like an .09 and would make for some good racing.

Sam

Was this a carb restrictor or exhaust?

Sounds good, Sam. Let me see pic of the restrictor. The limited class, that you are working on, will run 20% fuel. The sportsman class will run 16% as of now. Did you try the standard .170 Associated restrictor?

Tim

Here are some pictures of the restrictor. First, installed and being held in place by the OS Super Air Cleaner 102, next installed without an air cleaner. Then out of the car, to show how it is made.

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/510/Restrictor_Pics.jpg

As you can see, this restrictor is very different in construction from the Associated restrictor, and is also different in how it restricts. The Associated restrictor acts as a velocity stack. It keeps the airflow clean and smooth, and speeds up the airflow, just through a smaller hole at the end. This one acts much like a NASCAR restrictor plate. It makes the entry hole smaller, then has a larger area that the air expands into, slowing the airspeed down and making it more turbulent. Then, it goes through the original hole in the carburetor, which is larger than the restrictor plate hole, slowing the airspeed even more. Bascially, it takes a lot of the punch, or torque, out of the engine, that the Associated restrictor does not. It would take a lot smaller Associated-style restrictor to slow the engine down the same amount as this one. I would guess somewhere between a .120-.150 Associated-style to compare to a .170-.180 with our plate style. I am not against the Associated style at all, but I think these may be better for what we are trying to do. The main reason is that the Associated ones are discontinued, and are fairly difficult to make. Scott may can help us out on this, but I would guess it would cost $5 to $10 a piece to make the Associated-style. We have had these quoted to be made for $1 a piece for a quantity of 200. Also, I think for a novice/limited division, a less violent engine could be a good thing.

Sam

The restrictors I had made are a cross between this and the Associated. The ones I had made fit down in the OS carb, making the entire carb bore the new smaller size, but are flat on the top.

Something like that may be what we need, Scott. How much did they cost per piece?

I had a buddy make them up for me, I think he made up about 10 or 12. Not sure on the cost, I have to pick them up. But this run is probably very cheap.

What is the status on this project? I think that Nitro could be a big class at Rosewood this summer? Not sure if Glenn will have a pit road this summer For long races, and many of the locals are wanting to run foams.

What is the deal with the foams? Just lack of knowledge on caps?

Might have deeper pockets than we do to run foams.
Stay with caps. Better in the long run.

Most of the racers were racing on a shorter asphalt track using foams. There realy was not a set of classes this summer. Many were trying to run tc cars and off road trucks ( no caps ). They thought caps to costly and they were not wanting to take time to learn. Glenn tried to alternate one weekend for foams and one for caps this past summer.

I went down one weekend and tried to help some to with caps. There is a strong support for Tour this carpet season. Maybe they will follow thoes rules for outside and do m,ore cap racing this Summer.

I'm glad you asked, Larry. I didn't realize that I hadn't updated everyone on our latest combination. The restrictor we started with worked too well, and made the engine act like a real restricted engine. It took two laps to get up to speed, and if you had to lift you would be sunk. So we made a .160 that is basically like the .09 restrictor, just made to fit the Dynamite's carburetor. It had decent punch, but would start starving for fuel at the end of the straights and still felt flat compared to the .09's. So we took the baffle out of the HPI muffler, and that combination seems like it will work well. All of the Easley .09 guys were very satisfied with how it ran. I may post some pictures of the restrictor in a day or two. We haven't went ahead with making any restrictors yet because outdoor racing is out of season, but let me know if you think we will need to supply the Rosewood bunch because that will affect our quantities. Mitch should have the Dynamite engines by now, and has HPI mufflers, and will probably be the supplier for the restrictors. I hope there will be interest in this class at Rosewood, I know we're going to have a group at Easley.

Sam

did you ever try any lower nitro content sam?

James, we considered and discussed lower nitro content, and here's why we didn't even go there:

1. Availability. I would have had to special order lower nitro content fuel, and would have had probably $20 in a quart, just to test. We all already have 20% of different varieties, so we just decided to keep with what we have. That makes one less thing we have to buy, lowering the cost of the transition to the Dynamite .12s for everyone.

2. Tech. If the difference in performance between 20% and a lower content would have been great enough to get rid of the restrictor, then we would have had to keep a close eye on fuel. Mitch said that he could get 100% nitro, and that it would just take a few drops of that in a tank to change 10% to 20%. We would have to make everyone come up early to race, put a rag in the top of the tank, and turn it over to make sure there was nothing already in the tank before fueling the car. That would be a headache for both the racers and the tech people. Now, people can still do that with 20%, but from what I've seen with my dirt car when I switched to 30%, there isn't that much difference between higher contents. I even tried 50% for a while, but was actually slower at the end of the race because it leaned the engine out as it ran, and ate glow plugs. 20% is a decent amount of nitro, so adding a little bit doesn't make as much of a change. We're still going to keep tabs on the fuel with 20%, but it just won't be as critical to performance. If you have very little to start with, and are using that and only that to slow the car down, then a little bit would make a huge difference. The carb restrictor is something physical that is easy to check, whereas checking the fuel takes expensive equipment.

So that's what the Easley group came up with. If you guys at Rosewood want to try it, or even race it, that's fine, but we're sticking with the 20% that we already have at Easley.

Sam

what kind of times did this combo turn at easley?

It has been a while since I ran it, but I know it was similar to .09s. I know it will be capable of 5.7s, and I think this combo ran 5.7s and cruised in 5.8s. This was a test car, so the tires were good but not great. In ideal conditions it will probably run 5.6s just like an .09.

His car looked like it did with his good 09. The difference is we should all have about the same power and it should last a while. It got old playing musical pistons and sleeves more than you work on setup. Looking forward to having fun rather than having to build motors while at the track. I bet I can still slide down the front strait on my top with one of these, WOOOOOOOOOO.

i am not tryinh to be negative, but are we sure they even need to be that fast. we are trying to get racers involved. i was thinking more along the lines of 5.9-6.0 which i feel would be easier to drive. i will do whichever, just stating my opinion on this.

either way, i guess we need to get it ironed out, so we can get some restrictors made for everyone. i have talked to the racers here, and they are all for swithing to the dynamite. iguess it has just been harder for me to test here, because we only ran a few times before carpet season started, we were getting about a tenth faster each time we ran, just by figuring out what this new track liked setup wise. so if i tested the .12 to compare, its hard to tell if it is comparable. i guess we need to just go w/ this and adjust it later if we feel it needs tweaking.

so this is where we are:
dynamite motor
.160 restrictor
20 percent
hpi muffler no baffle

questions-
weight 48oz?
open or spec tire?
open or limited gear?

do we want to stick w/ same bodies or try something different to give the class its own identity (nastruck or cot). i really like this idea myself, just to visually distinguish the classes. i know some will not agree.

James, I think we were looking more for a direct replacement for the .09s, since they are already the slower nitro class, but I do see your point. Tim has a set of rules for a slower class that might could entice new racers, but I also think that someone looking at nitro would be looking for some speed and power. For comparison, with the technology they had in the fall, the 21.5 Pro class was getting in the 5.7s, and that's more the type of experienced racer we would be looking for. I don't know of any nitro racing class that is suitable for a complete newbie. Its still a good bit slower than the .15s because there is a big difference between 5.7's and 5.3's at Easley.

I'm looking at 45.5 to 46oz on the weight, because the Dynamite engine is about 1.5 to 2oz heavier than an .09, depending on which head the .09 has on it. Right now we're going to keep the tires and the gear open, just like they were. We all pretty much ran the same gear on the .09s anyway, and if we changed to spec tires it would obsolete our old tires and make us have to buy all new spec tires, and get into people cutting them down to get stagger and make a bunch of work and cost.

As far as the bodies...I just don't know how well a nitro pan car would hook up with a truck or COT body. I've never tried it. I would expect that if we did that we would have to slow down to at least 6.0s just to get an amount of power that would somewhat hook up. That could be an interesting other class, but we don't really have enough racers for the classes we already have. I just don't know, Mitch and anyone else let us know what you think about the bodies.

I'm glad you're showing interest in this class, James. We need it!

Sam

Truck sounds good to me, but it won't to most. It seems to be harder for most to get a truck hooked up. I don't know so much about the COT, except that it's BUTT UGLY.

I think the trucks would be cool. With the power we have in Nitro, it might need to have a wing added, but hey who knows until it is tried.

I think the trucks would be cool. With the power we have in Nitro, it might need to have a wing added, but hey who knows until it is tried.

Just a thought, on a truck the motor would be in the rear and open. With the lower truck bed a lot may have to be removed for clearance of the motor and muffler. A trip on your head could tear up a lot of things. Most truck bodies on electric cars use a 1" post in the rear.

As hideous as the COT body is, it is probably most fitting for the class. It probably has more drag than any other body out there.

I tried a truck way back when sub 6 sec laps were fast...hehe. It didn't work well then and the motor was somewhat exposed.

Yeah, there would probably be a huge hole in the bed.

What about a ASA late model? Same wing just the late model look?

not trying to cause a problem but has anyone thought about a restrictor on the .15 os that way someone could run both classes with out a bunch of changes just a ideal

The idea behind the Dynamite 12 class is, lighter than the 15 class, less power, one motor, one muffler, one restrictor, less money for a motor that should last, that's ready to run ($75), less money for tires (lighter, slower car). The class is designed for Carolina RC with Donnie's help. If others decide to run the same package, that would be great. It should be a fun, cheap to run class.

plus, planning for the future. because we all know they are going to do away w/ the .15 eventually, the .12 is already gone.