Before I begin this rambling, let me remind everyone that my only affiliation with Moebius is in the capacity of free lance contributor. That said, I have a few thoughts about the J2 thread that I would like to share, and hopefully come to a reasonable understanding.

I think that what everyone has to remember is that the products offered by Moebius inherently include a highly emotional component, primarily based on the fact that we are tapping into childhood memories. As such, a certain amount of "shop talk" enthusiasm should be expected, especially since there is little additional info available on the new kit itself at this point. Speaking from a business perspective, I believe that this type of sharing serves to generate good will, and is actually a good thing for sales in the long run.

On the other hand, I can also appreciate the argument that the current diversity of posted material makes it difficult to find information on the kit itself, especially for those who seek it for the first time. Perhaps the best thing to do would have been to split the thread accordingly a long time ago, and in effect, that is what I am now proposing. Another J2 thread was started by Dar back on 06/08, which apparently has no content limitations. I suggest that this is the location that we should now use for peripheral J2 "shop talk." http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=256883

As for this new thread, I respectfully suggest that the content be more tightly focused on matters relating to the actual model, primarily out of respect for those who seek quick and accurate information. The scope of material I am proposing may be broader than one might initially think. In my opinion, posting photos relating to planned modifications/customizations of the kit would be OK, as well as related discussions. I believe that this is the kind of information and exchange of ideas that prospective new seekers may find equally valuable.

Is everyone cool with this?
Ron G.

No,it would be more appropriate to have this thread when the model is in everyone's hand and can disscuss changes and modifactions to your model.The fact that an 80 page thread was closed was that people here have shown that they cannot stay on topic and fall into conjecture and speculation and dribble.............alexander

But Ron, the problem lies in the fact there IS nothing to discuss, nothing new at this point. It's all conjecture and hopes and dreams and rainbows and unicorns.

And you'll get folk (un-named) who will get all net-nazi and shout "that's off topic! that's off topic!" whenever the convo veers off whatever THEY think the topic is supposed to be.

I mean, look at the ruffled feathers over the hull contour discussion, and the heat over the choice of 'film set' Vs. 'effects mini' look for the landing gear! And those would be both considered 'legit' discussion material!

(and FWIW, I'm in the camp that the 'film set' legs should be correct, as that was produced by the art director for the actors to interact with and thus should be held to the same 'canon' as the interior..there, that's enough to get me in trouble with someone :) )

I thought I put a pretty reasoned and impassioned defense up, and was pointedly ignored, so that says volumes, at least to me. You, of course, carry a bit more weight than I do, cred-wise, so maybe something different will happen.

*sigh* Always the same. 30-some years of fandom and these patterns happen over and over and over. I shouldn't be surprised by this anymore, really.

I think it could work Ron.:) I think we can have a thread that would just discuss the Moebius J2 and what types of conversions we may want to do with it etc. and maybe how the actual filming model/set details could be imposed on the Moebius. That was something I didnt agree on the last thread because it essentially wasnt allowed but wasnt fully dis-allowed either. I mean you need to discuss the actual model and show from time to time. As long as the discussion remains on the J2 and not say the Spindrift, I think its ok to discuss the filming minatures, epsisodes where you may want to discuss a particualr area of the ship etc. that you want to modify on your Moebius J2.

My thread is a little more freeewheeling. It has mostly stayed on the J2, veering off occasionally into other IA stuff. But it is for the most part tied to the J2 in all its forms.

I think this thread would be great as long as it stayed within certain parameters. The thread title will have to be broad so its not so stringently scrutinized by some here. Give it a go I say.:thumbsup:

Before I begin this rambling, let me remind everyone that my only affiliation with Moebius is in the capacity of free lance contributor. That said, I have a few thoughts about the J2 thread that I would like to share, and hopefully come to a reasonable understanding.

I think that what everyone has to remember is that the products offered by Moebius inherently include a highly emotional component, primarily based on the fact that we are tapping into childhood memories. As such, a certain amount of "shop talk" enthusiasm should be expected, especially since there is little additional info available on the new kit itself at this point. Speaking from a business perspective, I believe that this type of sharing serves to generate good will, and is actually a good thing for sales in the long run.

On the other hand, I can also appreciate the argument that the current diversity of posted material makes it difficult to find information on the kit itself, especially for those who seek it for the first time. Perhaps the best thing to do would have been to split the thread accordingly a long time ago, and in effect, that is what I am now proposing. Another J2 thread was started by Dar back on 06/08, which apparently has no content limitations. I suggest that this is the location that we should now use for peripheral J2 "shop talk." http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=256883

As for this new thread, I respectfully suggest that the content be more tightly focused on matters relating to the actual model, primarily out of respect for those who seek quick and accurate information. The scope of material I am proposing may be broader than one might initially think. In my opinion, posting photos relating to planned modifications/customizations of the kit would be OK, as well as related discussions. I believe that this is the kind of information and exchange of ideas that prospective new seekers may find equally valuable.

Is everyone cool with this?
Ron G.

Hello, Ron...

I am fine with it. I know I went off topic - it was to some extent my personal and professional style and values coming through: I firmly believe that there is great value in encouraging broad discussions. It is akin to green lighting. In my own experiences beyond this board, I have seen subjects discussed that would be dismissed as some trigger new ideas in others.

I think a thread of this nature should be open. And, it does help to generate good will and sales as you mention. Enough said on this. Peripheral J2 "shop talk" as you label it does belong elsewhere. I'm signing off from this message, before I stray!

Jim

No,it would be more appropriate to have this thread when the model is in everyone's hand and can disscuss changes and modifactions to your model.The fact that an 80 page thread was closed was that people here have shown that they cannot stay on topic and fall into conjecture and speculation and dribble.............alexander

I just hate to see this forum go without any kind of active J2 thread, considering the groundbreaking product that will soon be in our hands. It doesn't seem right. There should be enough images of the prototype on line to get people thinking about how they intend to light, modify, customize, etc. Also, test shots are not that far away (no date yet, before anyone asks). I don't necessarily expect this thread to be super active until more information becomes available, but I also don't think that providing a place for those who do want to offer relevant content at this point is unreasonable.

You had that,and see where it went.You have a J2 disscussion thread going on now.The Moderators deem it a dead horse.....it's time to let it go and build a model.

No,it would be more appropriate to have this thread when the model is in everyone's hand and can disscuss changes and modifactions to your model.The fact that an 80 page thread was closed was that people here have shown that they cannot stay on topic and fall into conjecture and speculation and dribble.............alexander

Whaddaya mean, we can't stay on topic?

Oh look, a butterfly...

...it would be more appropriate to have this thread when the model is in everyone's hand and can disscuss changes and modifactions to your model...
What makes you think that would be considered on- topic? There is no statement here about what is, and what is not, considered on-topic. If there were, of course, this would be one dead forum.

Moebius can, and has, posted all the facts about their upcoming kits on their own website, which is the appropriate place for such material.
...people here have shown that they cannot stay on topic and fall into conjecture and speculation and dribble...
HobbyTalk is a discussion forum for hobbiests- and not just those in the hobby business. It's not a city council meeting, or a business meeting. If you don't like someone else's dribble, at least show the cordiality of not telling them to shut the hell up, or seeking to close the thread.

I dont remember the mistakes in the hull of the old PL kit but was wondering who well be doing the very finall inspection of the new kit to avoid as many inaccurcies as possible, the end of the year is just to far away.

Whaddaya mean, we can't stay on topic?

Oh look, a butterfly...
said the rhinoceros of the modeling realm.

The end of the year will overtake us with unannounced haste. As for a J-2 conjecture thread, one exists in the Science Fiction subheading in the Models column. Until Mobius posts new information or photos , I feel that most discussion belongs over there. A new thread can be started after test shots are complete, and Dave does a test build. We will then have something to talk about. Patience is INDEED a virtue.

No,it would be more appropriate to have this thread when the model is in everyone's hand and can disscuss changes and modifactions to your model.The fact that an 80 page thread was closed was that people here have shown that they cannot stay on topic and fall into conjecture and speculation and dribble.............alexander

It is reading between the lines of what your calling dribble that real information is learned...not just about a model, but about people. One can click off their dribble infested screen any time it bores them.

I dont do "between the lines".......................alexander

So....Now let me see if I understand this correctly??
We've opened another new J-2 thread to discuss a forthcoming model kit that still only exists as a tooling mock-up, and won't arrive in stores for several more months......I guess that's OK, we can try that.

So correct me if I'm wrong here, looks to me like after 11 posts, we're right on topic arguing about the dribble content of the first Jupiter 2 Model detail thread?
Give me a break! Please could we please go find a live horse to beat!

Now, if you don't mind, either find a way to discuss the model kit OR expect me to close this seemingly pointless exercise in more dribble!

Dave

Ok, i'lll start.


I want to do some interior modifications to the model. Theres is plenty of space behind the walls of the interior. I was thinking of either a completely made up storeroom or try to make a copy of the one Will and Dr. Smith ran through in the 3rd season episode. Yeah it will be on the first level now rather than the second level, but it was a cool storeroom. If I remember correctly there were tons of white boxs with survial gear written on them, food etc. Plus the room had a door and I think a couple of support beams and one of those caged lights.

Theres also plenty of room for other storage areas like an indoor hydroponic graden, extra stateroom(maybe dons room) or the pod bay.

I was also thinking of a nice photo of the lower level to put in the window also.

I may even considered putting storage units in the ceiling were the ladder goes to the never seen observation station. Kinda like an attic. Not sure how much space was really up there but it would be cool to do somthing with it.

This are just some ideas I have. My scratchbuilding abilities still arent as fine tuned as some others.(I had build some stuff on my uncompleted PLJ2 and they turned out pretty good) So I may wait for any aftermarket interior additions as well. But the possibilities are unlimited what can be done to this model.

OK, My project will be 1-2 variations of working landing gear. The gear components will most likely be cast in Alumilite, and have brass tubes and steel rods for the hinges/leg pivot points. I'll have to see what the footpads look like, to see if they will be the right size to be used with the gear.

The 3rd project will be the mechanical fusion core lights and spinning "V" in the bubble.

. . . I'm in the camp that the 'film set' legs should be correct, as that was produced by the art director for the actors to interact with and thus should be held to the same 'canon' as the interior..there, that's enough to get me in trouble with someone :)

Okay, please educate me on this:

1. Has a decision been made as to the use of full-sized set legs rather than the miniature model legs?

2. What are the differences between the two sets of legs?

Just off the top of my noggin, my tendency is to think it'd be better to go totally with the miniature details in the exterior items which would include the legs since they're only seen when extended and on the exterior. It would also seem that, if there are significant differences, they would fit better.

The interior planned is basically "superimposed" on the inside dimensions of the miniature as best as possible, anyway. Why not keep the rest of it as faithful to the miniature as reasonably possible. If someone wants to modify the interior with the basic job the actual miniature had, that shouldn't be too difficult.

That being said, I must make clear that I really, really love the full-sized mock up saucer (the one with legs) and its detailing and intend to scratch/bash one.

There was never a question as to the choice of landing gear, as the model will include the design from the full scale mock-up. This is the single fundamental aspect of the design with which I respectfully disagreed. Please see post #139 on page 10 of the original thread (and subsequent discussions) for a comparison, and my proposed solution for those who share this view. The good news is that the proposal is becoming closer to reality, as a plan is now in place with an after market manufacturer to offer the alternate "hero" landing gear. More details will follow at the proper time.

I look forward to this kit. I just finished a two month build of the PL kit. It's going to be nice not to have to do a lot of modifications. I'm also glad this will be friendly to the modeler who wants to add lights. trying to cram 50 LEDs and over 25 feet of FO into a PL is not fun. I suspect the new J2 will be much easier.
Don't know if it's just me or not, but I fully expect the aftermarket to go wild over this kit and look forward to what surely will be available. I will be doing at least two. One out of the box to get a feel for the kit and then a fully lighted version. I just hope a fusion core curcuit board will be out around the same time.
Has it been shown how the upper and lower hulls fit together in the middle? My work computer blocks that image host so I can't see the pictures. From what I saw at Wonderfest the edge seems to be very sharp unlike the PL version.

Yeah I dont think that it has a beveled edge on the moebius. Im looking forward to seeing how it fits all together.

Concerning the legs as I have stated before I will definitely be getting aftermarket legs. I also think the legs with the kit will be great for those who wish to do "full sized mockup dioramas" based on epsiodes where the family is exiting the full sized mockup. So there is room for both of the landing gear.:thumbsup:

I look forward to this kit. I just finished a two month build of the PL kit. It's going to be nice not to have to do a lot of modifications. I'm also glad this will be friendly to the modeler who wants to add lights. trying to cram 50 LEDs and over 25 feet of FO into a PL is not fun. I suspect the new J2 will be much easier.
Don't know if it's just me or not, but I fully expect the aftermarket to go wild over this kit and look forward to what surely will be available. I will be doing at least two. One out of the box to get a feel for the kit and then a fully lighted version. I just hope a fusion core curcuit board will be out around the same time.
Has it been shown how the upper and lower hulls fit together in the middle? My work computer blocks that image host so I can't see the pictures. From what I saw at Wonderfest the edge seems to be very sharp unlike the PL version.

I never understood that extra "lip" on the PL version. My list of modification tips, in fact, included a suggestion to get rid of it (unfortunately with certain trade-offs). My initial thought was that this may have been some sort of safety consideration, due to the otherwise sharp edge, that was taken a little too far. I have not seen any indication that this will be the case with new Moebius kit.

Hopefully we'll have more pictures soon on this. Test shots should be coming soon, and we'll all get a better look at what is happening.

There was never a question as to the choice of landing gear, as the model will include the design from the full scale mock-up. This is the single fundamental aspect of the design with which I respectfully disagreed. Please see post #139 on page 10 of the original thread (and subsequent discussions) for a comparison, and my proposed solution for those who share this view. The good news is that the proposal is becoming closer to reality, as a plan is now in place with an after market manufacturer to offer the alternate "hero" landing gear. More details will follow at the proper time.

I can understand that. I can't help but think this may be a 'chicken or the egg' conumdrum. Which came first in the design, the set piece or the model? Were the builders attempting to copy the set as best they could, making modifications due to the different proportions between the model and the set? Keep in mind that I'm Mr. Crazy and believe that the 'full size' J2 is actually about 3/4 scale and thus it's very risky to use that for ANY measurements.

My argument for using the set landing gear is, again, it's meant to be seen, the actors interact with it, it's supposed to be 'real', while the landing gear on the mini is just a rough representation meant to be briefly seen...altho, yes, I will be fair, that first time they show the legs (I believe in 'the Derelict') it's a prototypical beauty shot, just about shouting "hey! LOOK! LANDING LEGS!" so...

Anyway, I'm a bit concerned about the insert pictured in the mockup pic, i'm guessing its a 'conjecture' part, the 'top' of the well where they support arm I assume slides along and stores in. It doesn't seem to allow for enough 'depth' in the well, but that could be just an optical illusion, or part of the 'things to be corrected'.

(and of course it's going to be a problem, gear wells would be in the way of the lower deck and even intrude on the flight deck if done 100% as seen on the 'full size' set :) )

My argument for using the set landing gear is, again, it's meant to be seen, the actors interact with it, it's supposed to be 'real', while the landing gear on the mini is just a rough representation meant to be briefly seen...altho, yes, I will be fair, that first time they show the legs (I believe in 'the Derelict') it's a prototypical beauty shot, just about shouting "hey! LOOK! LANDING LEGS!" so...

Tick.....tick......tick.........

The writing is on the wall that this thread is already trying to take the same direction as the first, so don't be surprised if it get's laser rifled in the near future! LOL!

I will say, I can't wait to get my grubby mitts on this new kit. I'm almost done with my PL version, which I really have enjoyed, but I think this big kit, with all of it's elaborate details, is going to be hog heaven for us Jupiter fans! Just what sneak peeks we got early on was enough to keep me stoked for months! I think your going to see some really incredible builds as a result of it a year from now too! A good foundation and a lot of imagination goes a long way.

I never understand the endless nitpicking anyways. I agree with whoever said "it's time to build some models". I've known guys on other sites for years, who I have never seen one finished build from. They talk about it, what they would do with the subject, but you never see anything produced. I'd rather talk about the stuff we all build and look at pictures of them in progress or finished than speculate for hours about something that only exists in our minds!! Get away from the computer and pick up that glue! Mush!

Hopefully we'll have more pictures soon on this. Test shots should be coming soon, and we'll all get a better look at what is happening.

I am really looking forward to seeing the test shots! :thumbsup:

Tick.....tick......tick.........

Oh, now, be fair!

If I've set the 'thread close' alarm off it's the paragraph above what you quoted, as it doesn't mention the new model AT ALL :)

And how do you discuss an issue without some context?

As far as aftermarket legs, If I mold the original parts in a really good RTV I should get about 200+ pulls out of it. The other smaller parts might be a bigger pain. The footpad door sliders is an example. I also need to see how much room I have to work with for the jack shaft system to raise and lower the legs via cables.

My argument for using the set landing gear is, again, it's meant to be seen, the actors interact with it, it's supposed to be 'real', while the landing gear on the mini is just a rough representation meant to be briefly seen...altho, yes, I will be fair, that first time they show the legs (I believe in 'the Derelict') it's a prototypical beauty shot, just about shouting "hey! LOOK! LANDING LEGS!" so...

Steve,
Let be begin by reassuring you that I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree. I know I used the phrase "Definitive Jupiter 2" with respect to my scratch build, but that had more to do with a catchy title for a magazine article than anything else.

The argument involving interaction of the actors with set design is an interesting one, but then wouldn't that line of thinking logically have to extend to the contours of the ship itself? I think we all agree that the choice of the hero miniature hull contour for the new Moebius kit is a far better choice.

To me, it's all about something I call proportional integrity. Having faithfully duplicated the "hero" hull contour, I do not feel that the overall look is entirely validated unless those graceful curves are seen in combination with the other external elements for which they were originally intended. That's why I felt compelled to jump on an after market alternative as soon as I saw the final plans, fully anticipating that this issue would come up. That does not necessarily make it the "correct" answer, but it's one that I'm betting quite a few people will agree with. For those who favor the "full scale" leg design, this is what the kit will come packaged with, so there should be no concerns.

All of that said, I did not intend for this new thread to become a platform for this subject, as there will surely be a discrete thread established when the time is more appropriate. So I guess I will ask that we defer future discussion on this subject until that time. Frank has indicated that test shots are soon forthcoming, so there should be plenty of material to discuss very soon.
Ron G.

Ron, let me say that you've just about convinced me. Now I understand your thinking on the subject and it's consistent and logical.

I'll leave it there for now. :)

No matter how you reconcile it, no matter how you build it, there is not and never will be a "Definitive" or "Accurate" version to please everyone. That is what makes us builders, we can make it any way we want and it will be ok. Just have fun with it, the way Frank and everyone else at Moebius wants us to.

Should the test shots photos get their own thread to make them easy to find or be posted here?

No matter how you reconcile it, no matter how you build it, there is not and never will be a "Definitive" or "Accurate" version to please everyone. That is what makes us builders, we can make it any way we want and it will be ok. Just have fun with it, the way Frank and everyone else at Moebius wants us to.

DANGNABBIT!

Why'd ya have to go and post that comparison illo? It's setting off about a million discussion points in my head!

Which I will manfully restrain myself from talking about. :)

(but seriously, I'm really thinking that the lower hull difference is...NNggg no no, must..not...)

But you're right, there's just no way to blend ALL the differences into one model. You gotta just pick a version/variant and go from there.

This is about the JUPITER 2...NOT the Gemini 12.

No matter how you reconcile it, no matter how you build it, there is not and never will be a "Definitive" or "Accurate" version to please everyone. That is what makes us builders, we can make it any way we want and it will be ok. Just have fun with it, the way Frank and everyone else at Moebius wants us to.

No arguments here. But there's nothing wrong with trying to please as many people as possible, one way or another. BTW, those images are great. :)

So at 18 inches across what scale Rail Road might go with it, i was thinking some figures inside this big kit wood also look good.

So at 18 inches across what scale Rail Road might go with it, i was thinking some figures inside this big kit wood also look good.

Now that's the kind of topic I had in mind. Does anyone have other ideas for suitable figures? Placing them inside the freezing tubes is an idea that always appealed to me.

No arguments here. But there's nothing wrong with trying to please as many people as possible, one way or another. BTW, those images are great. :)
Thank you Ron, they were fun to do. You should see my Seaview cutaway!

If Drewd isn't already making figures, he ain't the man I know he is.

Now that's the kind of topic I had in mind. Does anyone have other ideas for suitable figures? Placing them inside the freezing tubes is an idea that always appealed to me.
I believe it is 1/35 scale. Plenty of Army figures that can be modified if that is the case.

Probably too early to ask, but anyone working on a lighting kit for this?

I look forward to this kit. I just finished a two month build of the PL kit. It's going to be nice not to have to do a lot of modifications. I'm also glad this will be friendly to the modeler who wants to add lights. trying to cram 50 LEDs and over 25 feet of FO into a PL is not fun. I suspect the new J2 will be much easier.
Don't know if it's just me or not, but I fully expect the aftermarket to go wild over this kit and look forward to what surely will be available. I will be doing at least two. One out of the box to get a feel for the kit and then a fully lighted version. I just hope a fusion core curcuit board will be out around the same time.
Has it been shown how the upper and lower hulls fit together in the middle? My work computer blocks that image host so I can't see the pictures. From what I saw at Wonderfest the edge seems to be very sharp unlike the PL version.

Rob, I agree on all counts. BTW, I tried to answer your PM, but a message said that you need to clear some space first. I'll try again later...

a choice of differant legs along with other parts well be a good thing. its not like ill be doing just one build up.http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/509/thumbs/legs.jpg (http://photos.hobbytalk.com/showphoto.php/photo/35755)

If Drewd isn't already making figures, he ain't the man I know he is.


Drewid is... he just isn't posting pics 'til they are ready. I will have complete set of figures ready to test fit in a few days... when the test shot gets here the figs will be tested, adjusted, and scultping will commence on details... they should be available in September or October... all 3 sets... tube poses, and 2 sets of assorted poses in silver suits and daily uniforms! ...robot included in the 2 sets of assorted poses... suitable for lighting.

:)

oh... and worry not... I will post a bunch of WIP shots when I show off the finals!

There was never a question as to the choice of landing gear, as the model will include the design from the full scale mock-up. This is the single fundamental aspect of the design with which I respectfully disagreed. Please see post #139 on page 10 of the original thread (and subsequent discussions) for a comparison, and my proposed solution for those who share this view. The good news is that the proposal is becoming closer to reality, as a plan is now in place with an after market manufacturer to offer the alternate "hero" landing gear. More details will follow at the proper time.

Thank-you, sir! I couldn't bear the thought of wading through that last thread to find such details. I gave up on reading it all the way through after it grew so big. Your directions, however, sent me straight to the pertinent details and I read most of the immediate discussion regarding the legs..

Now that I've read over Gary's rationalization of his choices, I get it. I think that's a pretty good way for him to go and have no real problem with it. :thumbsup:

I still prefer the full-scale mock-up in all it's dimensions as having a more practical look to it. I know I'll have to scratch/bash my own if I want one but that's no problem.

As for the coming model kit, I may go with the 4 foot miniature look since it's already so close--not sure yet. I'll probably scratch build my own landing gear in that case.

How about figures that are cast in clear..give them a light coat of silver then light them pulsating from below till they glow in the freezing tubes to simulate the freezing process.

How about figures that are cast in clear..give them a light coat of silver then light them pulsating from below till they glow in the freezing tubes to simulate the freezing process.

Oooh! I like that idea!:thumbsup:

Oooh! I like that idea!:thumbsup:

I do as well. Im not sure about making the figures all silver though. The may be to transparent. But very cool idea.

No, I meant make the suits a light coat of silver and even thin flesh color over the faces just for when the effect itself isn't being used. Then use the brightest LEDs you can get to create a glowing effect from below that should shine through the thin paint. Maybe they would have to remain clear cast to keep the effect realistic but it would be fun to experiment with it!