Hi Guys,
I haven't seen this discussed here before, so I wanted to see if anyone has ever tried painting a routed track surface with magnetic paint. The paint isn't actually magnetic, it just contains iron to which magnets are attracted.

Here's a link to a post (post #22) that piqued my interest:

"http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23547&st=15&start=15"

I think this is a message board for 1/32nd scale, but the idea is fascinating. If this works for HO scale, I can see using this method to put together a track with non-magnetic rail/braid/tape and letting the board provide the downforce. You could probably tinker with the exact amount of downforce you wanted by experimenting with different mixtures.

Imagine spreading out the magnetic attraction not just over the rails, but evenly distributed.

I did read in another post that if you use magnetic paint with a digital system, it messes up that system because the board can actually carry a small current (there is iron in it). The solution to the problem turned out to be simply appling a layer of non-magnetic paint to the surface which isolated the braid from the magnet paint. The doenforce was still there, but the iron in the paint doesn't come in contact with the rails/braid.

Thanks...Joe

Since there were no replies, I'm guessing there might not be any interest in this topic. But if there is, I checked a local hardware store for magnetic paint. It is expensive; $30 per quart.

Thanks...Joe

Well, not that there was any interest or not, it's something different.
I have a few questions.
Wouldn't the magnetic paint be hard to keep clean?
Just how magnetic can a thin layer of paint be?
Do these paints come in different colors?
Is it an indoor/outdoor paint?
Is it an oil or latex paint?
Will the paint rust?

I was gonna wait it out and see if a few of these were answered.
It's just what I thought when I initially read your post.
I'm always interested in new concepts.

Rich

Rich,
I can't answer all your questions, but if you read the link I put up in my first post, you'll see that the poster has had his track for a few years and doesn't mention anything about rust. I would guess that since the iron (or whatever material they put into the paint) isn't exposed to air, it wouldn't rust. It would be like painting an iron railing.

As far as magnetic attraction goes, I mentioned the one post I saw where someone mentioned having to paint over the magnetic paint with regular paint to avoid problems on a digital track. Apparently, even with the extra coat of non-magnetic paint, magnetic attraction was still there.

This stuff appears to be used mostly to create magnetic bulletin boards.

Personally, I would be looking for low magnetic downforce. It would be great if magnetic paint provided a strong magnetic pull. In that way, you could mix it with regular paint and get the magnetic downforce desired while turning that $30 quart into maybe a half gallon or more.

I'd love to try this, but I don't want to throw $30 at it to start. Although the idea is so enticing that I may have to go ahead and splurge. It goes against the cheapskate gene, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Thanks...Joe

Can you use reed switches for the lap counter or does it mess that up?

Can you use reed switches for the lap counter or does it mess that up?

I have no idea. Either no one has tried this or the guys that have tried it haven't read this thread.

I'm hoping someone with experiance in using magnetic paint, on anything, will chime in. If they've painted something (originally non-magnetic) with it, it would be easy to see how much a magnet car is attracted to it.

One guy, on another list, wrote to me that he painted his side (retaining) walls with magnet paint and has refrigerator magnets stuck to it. I asked him if he could do a "feel test" with a magnet car on those side walls.

Joe

I used magnetic paint for a 1/43 track I did.

Summary: It did not work out *for me*.

Longer version: I used a magnetic paint additive to cover a 1/43 scale track I did back in '06. The particular additive I used -- 'Magically Magnetic (http://www.lyt.com/servlet/StoreFront)' -- consists of zillions of tiny steel balls that you add to your paint. I added four pounds of the additive to a half gallon of primer and rolled that on.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the primer turned out both very rough (like very coarse sandpaper) and not very smooth (there were significant 'ripples' in the paint - everywhere).

When I was done, the track had next to no magnetic grip. Four pounds of steel is a lot of steel, but when spread around an 83' track surface -- the length of my 1/43 scale track -- it gets mighty thin. In retrospect, I should have put on a gallon or more of the primer/additive combination, finding out how many coats I needed to get the kind of attraction I wanted.

Here is a link to the entry about the mag paint experience (http://wmbrant.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!663A53C396FBBBDA!352.entry) in my blog.

Recommendations: Whatever paint you use, *try it out first* to make sure it goes on smooth and provides enough magnetic downforce.

Also keep in mind that the paint is going to be at least somewhat electrically conductive because of all the metal in it. If you get careless with the paint, you might end up with a short or two.

-- Bill

Hi,

I heard that magnetic paint can dismantle itself, and then micro magnetic parts stuck to cars magnet too. I didn't try it myself, but...

Hi,

I heard that magnetic paint can dismantle itself, and then micro magnetic parts stuck to cars magnet too. I didn't try it myself, but...

I'm thinking that in order to use magnetic paint, you may need to put a coat of regular paint over the top of the magnetic paint; this was the advice of someone who used it for a digital system where it was fouling up the system. This would (should?) isolate the paint from the electrical connections and bury the iron below the surface.

But, as Bill pointed out, it needs to be experimented with before any conclusions are drawn.

Thanks...Joe

Go ahead Joe, break down and try it. Chalk it up to experience, R&D work...RM

http://www.lyt.com/servlet/the-1088/Magnetic-Paint%2C-Full-Quart/Detail

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=115535-90-223081&lpage=none

Yes, you can always write it off your taxes. :thumbsup:

perhaps another weird solution possible, why not route another slot or two (one under each copper tape line) to glue in it some steel wire, behind the copper tape ? (= route a slot, glue the steel wire, cover it with a coat of something, glue the copper tape on it).




perhaps it should work...but I'm not comfortable with magnet racing on magnetic (braid or round wire, I don't speak of routed tracks using the standard "blade" wire used in common plastic track) routed tracks, I'm afraid it can false the natural settings and balance of magnet cars.

I explain : I first tried h0 cars on a carrera go plastic track (soldering braids on pickup shoes, and adding a big pin). The cars (magnatractions g+ and tomy turbos) were too much glued on the track. Because the metallic contact surface was very important (a lot more than the thin usual wire we see in standard plastic track) . It was very visible on magnatractions, wich are cars really well tuned and balanced for standard h0 tracks (the magnet traction feels more like a "virtual weight adding").


I hope I translate correctly my tought...

Demether,
I think I understand the point you are trying to make. You are worried that a board painted with magnetic paint will provide too much downforce. I am hoping that a painted surface will provide LESS downforce than plastic track.

The downforce of plastic track is fine for T-Jets/AFX (which don't use downforce) and AFX Magna-Tractions. If I just ran those, plastic track would be great. It is when I go to cars with stonger magnets (AFX Super-Magnatrations, Aurora G+, Tyco, Tomy, Lifelike, Marchon, etc.) that the downforce of plastic track is too strong for my tastes.

What I hope to achieve, through testing, is the proper mixture of iron powder and paint to produce a downforce less than steel rail, but still noticable. This would make running my magnet cars more fun for me. I've run on a lower downforce routed track and I liked it. If the magnetic downforce could be spread over a larger area, instead of just over the rails, that would make it even better.

If the magnetic paint works, I can then use non-magnetic braid (which is less expensive than magnetic braid) on a routed track. I want to use braid because I understand that pickup shoes will last forever. If you've ever owned an Aurora Super-Magnatraction, you'll understand how important that is; I think those shoes wear out in about 25 laps.

As to laying rail under copper tape, it's certainly something you could do. In fact, I may try putting copper tape over the rails on my plastic track as an experiment. In fact, I found a company that seems to sell a copper tape that is conductive on both sides. If true, I may put a small piece at each rail joint to smooth out the transitions.

Thanks...Joe

It's very interesting, and I 'll follw your experiment, for a simple reason : in France where I live, finding afx plastic track is almost impossible.

So we have to be lucky to find some tyco or other used track, or have to order it in USA, with huge shipping rates (even if USD is lower than EURO for now). So a lot of people (especially who can't speak english) are afraid to choose H0, even if it's adapted to their needs and tastes.

If a good , and simple method to route h0 tracks will appears, it will be easier to spread the h0 taste in my country.


It is when I go to cars with stonger magnets (AFX Super-Magnatrations, Aurora G+, Tyco, Tomy, Lifelike, Marchon, etc.) that the downforce of plastic track is too strong for my tastes.


I agree.

Personaly, tu reduce the downforce effect, I run anything faster than tomy turbos or 440x2, and I use hard tires on it. It works (440x2 f1s are very fun in this setup, spinning around when you make a driving fault, like the real thing), BUT it's really difficult to balance all the cars to have the same grip.


If the magnetic paint works, I can then use non-magnetic braid

why not using coppertape instead ?


bye

So we have to be lucky to find some tyco or other used track, or have to order it in USA, with huge shipping rates (even if USD is lower than EURO for now).

If you ever want new Tyco track, I have lots of it for sale. But like you say, the shipping overseas would be very high indeed.


why not using coppertape instead ?


I would probably experiment with copper tape first. I've already done a small test oval with copper tape. This is how I realized magnet cars cannot be used (unmodified) on a non-magnetic surface. Once I experiment and think I have a good mixture, I would pick up the tape, paint the board and relay the tape. If it works, then I can try some braid.

Braid will last a lot longer and probably work better than copper tape.

Thanks...Joe

I finally got off my duff and picked up a vial of iron powder which I will mix in with paint and experiment. I'm going to need to find the proper proportion of paint to powder in order to produce the level of downforce I'm looking for.

I'm going to have to mix by volume as I have no way to mix by weight. I'll be experimenting on small pieces of scrap wood.

So, does anyone have suggestions as to how I can measure downforce? I'm thinking that the only way to do this will be to "feel" the attraction and match it against a piece of plastic track; although I will need to get enough magnetic downforce to pull magnet cars to the track so the front tires meet the road surface. I'll be using an Aurora SuperMag chassis for that test as they seem to have the strongest pickup shoe springs.

Thanks...Joe

Home depot sells a magnetic paint...looks like a chalkboard but I bet you could lighten it..

I have a half gallon...I never tried it yet...it's heavy as hell though...

Joe --

Magically Magnetic sells two pounds of steel to add to a quart of paint; that would make it a pound of steel to a pint, and as we all know the old ditty: 'a pint's a pound the world round'. So if you *assume* (and we all know what that means) that paint weighs as much as water, they are recommending equal amounts of steel and paint by weight. So, weigh your paint and add the same amount of metal to it.

Or spluge and spend $15 and get enough to mix into any kind of leftover paint you have on hand.

-- Bill

Magnetic paint, from what I remember, is very expensive. Plus, with preset magnet paint, you have to take the strength they give you. I guess you could thin it out, but you couldn't increase it.

The iron powder is fairly inexpensive - I think 5 pounds is $15 and the store is in the next town over so there's no shipping charge. I just got a 30 gram vial for $3 to check it out.

I think I know a way to test it out. A Tyco 440-X2 will stay attached to a piece of plastic track when turned upside down. I'll take some old 9" curves, remove the rail (forgive me for such wanton destruction) and paint the track surface. I will try different mixtures until I get the car to cling to the track. Then I'll back off so that I get less downforce than steel rail.

Of course, the rail is much closer to the traction magnets than the paint will be, so I may never get to the point of the car hanging from the track. But I'm going to try mixing half the vial into maybe half a pint of paint. Then, depending on how it looks, I can either add more paint or more powder to achieve the level of downforce I want.

Joe

Just route a track and use magnetic braid.
I believe it comes in different steel/copper
percentages.

Just route a track and use magnetic braid.
I believe it comes in different steel/copper percentages.

The advantage of using magnetic paint and coating (nearly) the entire surface of the board would mean that downforce will be present whether your traction magnets are over the rails or not. There should be no point at which the car "lets go" because the traction magnets have moved off the rail/braid. I'm going to guess that no matter the concentration of iron powder to paint, I'll never achieve the level of downforce produced by steel rails - which is fine by me. I base this on the fact that the traction magnets will never be as close to the board as they are to raised rail.

This is just an experiment to determine the feasability of using magnetic paint.


Bill,
Thanks for the info on Magically Magnetic. Knowing the mixture amounts used by an existing product gives me a good starting point. A pound per pint would mean 8 pounds in a gallon or 4 pounds in a half gallon. I imagine a half gallon would more than cover a couple 4x8 boards. The 30 grams I got, which is equivilant to 1 oz., would then equate to 1/16th of a pint of paint.

It may also be necessary to apply multiple coats.

I just checked and the price for 5 pounds of iron powder is $55, not $15. So it's not as inexpensive as I thought, but a lot cheaper than the $30 a pint I found at a local hardware store.

Joe

I just checked and the price for 5 pounds of iron powder is $55, not $15.
Joe

Joe --

Eight pounds of the 'Magically Magnetic' additive (the amount recommended for one gallon of paint, but you can mix it any way you want) is only $40 plus shipping, so your local source costs more.

The additive, as I've stated earlier, is zillions of tiny steel balls that you add to the paint of your choice - and the paint can be any kind, any color -- either latex or oil-based. The additive consists of only the steel balls that you just pour into your paint.

You don't have to mix up the whole amount at one time, and you can mix it at any strength you want, although there might be an effective upper limit on the amount of additive you can get the paint to hold.

I am concerned that 'iron powder' might rust if mixed with a latex (water) based paint.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Also, since HO scale track is 3" wide, which is 1/4 of a foot, that means that 4 feet of HO scale track would equal 1 square foot of surface. Now that number is only for a 2-lane section, so you would need to double the track length for a 4-lane track.

So, for example, let's assume that I wanted to paint my track with magnetic paint. I have a 70-foot 4 lane track. Since it's four-lane, I need to double my track length length to 140 feet. Then I divide that length by 4 (the number of feet that make one square foot) and come up with 35 square feet.

Looking at the Magically Magnetic website, they claim that a half-gallon of paint, with *their recommended amount of additive* will cover 40-50 square feet. So, a half gallon of paint plus additive would cover my track at their recommended rate. They charge $25 for that much additive, plus whatever I would choose to spend on paint/primer to mix it with.

Now, I have no idea of knowing that their standard rate is either too strong or not strong enough -- that's where your experiments will come in.

-- Bill

Hi Bill,
I just reread your blog to get an idea of your experiance. The most disappointing aspect is you found little to no magnetic attraction once you were done. That doesn't bode well for this experiment.

The iron powder I got looks like metal shavings, not little steel balls. So the question will be whether the stuff I got produces a different result when mixed in the same concentration. You are correct in that Magically Magnetic is less expensive than my local source; The Chemical Store (www.chemicalstore.com).

However, I have already tried putting the vial next to a Tyco 440-X2 chassis. The magnetic attraction is not strong enough to pick up the vial.

I'll take my 1 oz. vial, add it to one ounce of paint and slap it on an old 9" curve. If I can find a sealable container to put the paint into, I may be able to get a second coat on after the first one dries. Then we'll see what we got.

I just checked on braid prices. Regular braid is less than half the cost of magnetic braid. Looks like 1,000 feet of braid will only cost about $.20 a foot. Considering you should only have to do it once, that's not bad at all.

Joe

Did a bit of research on HO braided tracks myself. The guys that run/have run them state the the braid needs to be installed raised to work with standard pick-up shoes.

I like the idea of the Banchi-style tracks with 1/8" slots that allow multiple scales to be run on the same track. I've got a layout and a CAD drawing. Everyone I've sent it to: A: Wants ~ a grand for a 4x8 track. B: Stops talking to me :) I have to wonder what the deal is with having a 4x8 CNC routed. Two shops have been approached, both of them slow as hell in the current economy and you would think they would welcome the work. It's not like I'm lookin' for freebie here. Once I get bored enough this coming winter to border my Tomy track, I'll probably can the whole idea.

I got a chance to try the first (and last?) experiment with trying to make magnetic paint. Using the formula of 1 lbs. of iron powder to 1 gallon of paint, I took my 1 oz. sample vial and mixed in 1/4 of the vial (.25 oz.) into an ounce of paint. If I did my basic math correct, this should produce the same concentration as the pound per gallon.

I painted a 9" curve with the rails removed. After one coat, I don't really feel any kind of magnetic attraction. I may try a second coat with the leftover paint. Maybe increase the concentration of iron powder. I really have no use for the rest of the vial.

As Bill pointed out, the track surface gets very gritty after applying the paint. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise when using paint containing metal shavings.

So, this may turn out to be a failure, but at least I tried. I really wouldn't need magnetic downforce except, as I've pointed out before, for the fact that some chassis types require some kind of downforce in order overcome the pickup spring tension and pull the front tires to the track.

Next experiment will be to try both magnetic and non-magnetic braid.

Joe

The advantage of using magnetic paint and coating (nearly) the entire surface of the board would mean that downforce will be present whether your traction magnets are over the rails or not. There should be no point at which the car "lets go" because the traction magnets have moved off the rail/braid.
Joe

Why not just make a steel track like this guy did?

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL489/2222574/15781831/240351369.jpg
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL489/2222574/15781831/240351507.jpg

Rich

Why not just make a steel track like this guy did?
Rich

Rich,
A steel track would probably be the ultimate racing surface, especially if you could get the right amount of downforce to suit your taste. But it's not something you could do yourself. With a routed track, you could at least decide somewhere down the road to build another without great expense (just a lot of time). With a steel track, you're locked into a layout unless you want to put out a goodly amount of money to get another; although I guess if you thought about it long and hard, and planned well, you could make a modular steel track.

Remember this thread...

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=180536&highlight=steel+track

You are actually the last one to post on it.

Joe

Remember? Heh, I can't forget that thread! I wonder what a steel routed oval would be like? :rolleyes:

A second coat of paint didn't seem to do anything. I may try to use a very heavy concentration of iron powder to paint, but I'm guessing the amount of iron you'd have to use might make the project financially silly, or just be too much iron tand make the paint unusable.

Joe

This project has been closed. After two coats, there was no noticeable magnetic attraction and the track surface was very gritty. It's on to something else.

Joe

Hey Joe:thumbsup:
I build and fly RC aircraft and have just found your thread. I have painted a work bench with magnetic paint purchased from Lee ValleyTools. The idea was to get a surface to which I could use the new super magnets to hold up the balsa ribs while gluing them to to leading and trailing edges. Here's what I found out : One or even two layers of paint were not enough to provide sufficiant force for the magnets to stick well. Four layers is getting to the place where they are sticking well, six would even be better, but I have run out of paint and need to buy more.
Recently I have gotten back into slotcars in the Ho scale, so I took my AFX SRT car over to the bench and put it on. With the pin hanging over the edge I have found the the magnetic force is there, at about half the amount of my rebar wire railed piece of test track. Using this unscientific method of reasoning then 6 coats would give 75% of the rebar wired magnetic force. Would that be sufficiently less then the original downforce to give you good control with more realistic drivability? ( slides etc?)
The track could then be painted with a plastic like paint to help dull the sharp edges of the iron bits and add to the overall driveability and remove or at least smooth the sandpaper like texture.
Of course all the painting would have to be done before routing ( I am assuming a wood track here) and the iron may dull the routing bits quicker but they are cheap. The added cost of the extra paint can easily be justified over the life of the track( measured in years).
It seems that the mag Ho cars are so fast that they are beyond the abilities of the average driver and many of the power supplies are now offering a lower voltage choice so the realistic driving angle is a very good one . The lower magnatizium direction has merit.
Oh yeah...I put my ohm meter on the work bench and found there was no continuity where I put the probes and I really dug them in but I have a cheap meter. Someone needs to do this with a Fluke.
One last thing, a friend recently told me that just when things seem to not be going well, the goals are realized. Don't give up, you're almost there.

Cheers: Ted

If you are going to be a bear... then be a grizzly!!

Someone needs to do this with a Fluke.

It's not a meter quality thing, you'd need a different tool to see if you are getting continuity. Specifically a megohmmeter or "megger" which is used to test insulation resistance. These are distinct and different from your standard multimeters, although some companies like Fluke do offer megger like capability in combination multimeter/insulation testers. Meggers require very high voltage, which is a design challenge in a battery operated tool, but very possible with step up coils and capacitors. On a conventional megger the high voltage is provided by a hand cranked generator that is built into the tool. On the newer insulation testers the high voltage is provided by step up coils and capacitors, much like on a stun gun or taser. In fact, any greenhorn working in a field that uses meggers has probably paid their salt as a newbie by being meggered ... "hey kid, hold these test leads for me..." not realizing that it's a piece of test equipment that generates electricity instead of simply measuring it. (All ohmmeters generate electricity, but typically at very low voltages like 1.5V instead of 1000V).

Hi Ted,
Thanks for the info on your experiance with magnetic paint. After I wrote my previous post, I went back online and read the web pages which first gave me the idea. I realized I want to make this work. A track surface with consistant downforce throughout the driving area is just too good an idea to let go.

Hey Joe

I build and fly RC aircraft and have just found your thread. I have painted a work bench with magnetic paint purchased from Lee ValleyTools. The idea was to get a surface to which I could use the new super magnets to hold up the balsa ribs while gluing them to to leading and trailing edges. Here's what I found out : One or even two layers of paint were not enough to provide sufficiant force for the magnets to stick well. Four layers is getting to the place where they are sticking well, six would even be better, but I have run out of paint and need to buy more.

Do you know the mixture of iron to paint? Is it an oil based primer paint?


Recently I have gotten back into slotcars in the Ho scale, so I took my AFX SRT car over to the bench and put it on. With the pin hanging over the edge I have found the the magnetic force is there, at about half the amount of my rebar wire railed piece of test track. Using this unscientific method of reasoning then 6 coats would give 75% of the rebar wired magnetic force. Would that be sufficiently less then the original downforce to give you good control with more realistic drivability? ( slides etc?).

My understanding is that rebar wire creates more downforce than regular steel rail, so 75% of that downforce may well be within the range of downforce I'm trying to achieve. The minimum amount of downforce needed would allow the front tires of magnet cars to touch the track surface; without downforce, the front tires on some cars (Aurora Super Mags) will not touch the track.

However, I can keep applying coats of paint to a test piece until I get what I feel is the right amount of downforce. The big question - again - is what mixture of iron to paint to use.


The track could then be painted with a plastic like paint to help dull the sharp edges of the iron bits and add to the overall driveability and remove or at least smooth the sandpaper like texture.

I also thought about this after I wrote my last post. A coating of regular paint may smooth out the surface. But what will it do to the magnetic level? How much of a dropoff will there be if you apply a topcoat?


Of course all the painting would have to be done before routing ( I am assuming a wood track here) and the iron may dull the routing bits quicker but they are cheap. The added cost of the extra paint can easily be justified over the life of the track( measured in years).
It seems that the mag Ho cars are so fast that they are beyond the abilities of the average driver and many of the power supplies are now offering a lower voltage choice so the realistic driving angle is a very good one . The lower magnatizium direction has merit.

Cheers: Ted

I'm not too worried about wearing out the bits faster. Most of the work for the bit will be in the wood, so I doubt the little bit of iron will cause that much extra wear.

Thanks for the encouragement and if you can, get back to me with the mixture amounts if they are listed on the can.

Thanks...Joe

Hi Joe:
Sorry I have not answered you sooner but I forgot to put a link to this forum on my desktop and forgot how to find it. (problem fixed).
When I made the work bench I used up all the paint and have thrown the can away so I cannot read the lable. I seached the Lee Valley Tool (google them and do a product search) cataloge and here is what I found: The paint is a latex primer with the iron fillings mixed in a dark grey in color. It is called Magic Wall Magnetic Paint, made in the USA for $17.50 Canadian dollars/ pint. A pint will cover 10.8 square ft. with 2 coats. My table is 2' x 7' and I used two pints for four coats.
The paint was very thick at the bottom of the can as the fillings sink and must be constantly stirred as you use it, almost like a putty. After stirring, it is the consistancy of porage but not as lumpy, needs to be applied with a foam brush or roller, I used a roller a 6" one. You can wash out the foam roller under the tap but the iron fillings don't wash down the sink very well. I can't tell you the mix rate but it is very heavy and has tons of iron in it, so if you are mixing you own don't be afraid to put in lots of iron fillings, Two cups to one pint does not seem to be too much to me or about half and half paint to iron. Remember the iron gives you the magnetic strength the paint only works as a medium to carry it and you only need enough to make it stick to the wood and only need to paint it where the cars will run, not the whole sheet like my work table so it should go a long ways.
Consider this: the rail wire I used for my test track is 1/16" thick so you want half to three quarters of that for 50 - 75 % magnetic force but the paint will be wider so you will need to figure out how many coats to apply. 6-8 I figure.
The top coat should not effect the mag force as it will be very thin but you will need it to seal the iron to provide a smooth surface for the copper tape power tape to stick to as it will not stick to the magnetic paint. You might have to go to the slide guides and brushes to pick up the power from the copper tape which means modifing your cars. The slide guides are available on the net. Riggen or Ho Race Pro has them. They also put added weight over the guide pin to hold the front end down.
Good luck with your project, I will watch with great interest and offer suggestions where I can and may try a magnetic paint track my self one day.:thumbsup:

Cheers Ted

If you are going to be a bear... then be a grizzly!

What about just painting a thin steel surface? Something like the stainless steel track, but with something for the rails.

Rich

Rich,
If you make the track out of a top piece of stainless steel (even very thin steel), why would you need to paint it, or use something for the rails? The track surface is the rails.

This is something I'd also like to try with a small test oval.

Joe

Hi Guys, Tuckmaster here. I would like to ask Rich to bring forward some of the past posts, I have no idea how to. The effect of racing on a track with non stop magnetic attraction offers a form of racing unlike anything to date. Thanks in advance. Dave

Why not just run old school magnetless cars ? make your routed +copper tape track, put it under 12volt, replace your magnets with weights, use silicone or silisponge tires, and it's everything you'll need to enjoy slot racing ;)

Why not just run old school magnetless cars ? make your routed +copper tape track, put it under 12volt, replace your magnets with weights, use silicone or silisponge tires, and it's everything you'll need to enjoy slot racing ;)

On my experimental 2x4 board, with no paint, etc., I have routed three lanes in an oval. I have applied copper tape to one of them. Unmodified cars are not running consistantly. The problem appears to be that the tape has no thickness to it, so it lays almost as flat as the board surface. You need to get some kind of pressure, whether that be weight or magnetic downforce, to force the pickup shoes onto the tape.

Then there is the problem that certain chassis type, Aurora Super Mags and Tyco 440-X2s for example, have pickup shoe springs which are strong enough to keep the front tires off the ground unless there is magnetic downforce (or added weight) to pull the car to the track. You can run a 440-X2 around the track, but the front wheels don't touch.

I've gotten a few cars to run around the oval. It sometimes takes a while for a car to run fairly consistant - don't know why that is. I had an AFX chassis running pretty good yesterday. But it is still inconsistant.

It's actually a little better in the curves and I believe that's because the tape is a little kinked there from being bent. In the straights, where the tape lays very flat, the car tends to lose contact with the tape.

So while I would like to go completely magnetless, you need some downforce if you want to run chassis without any modification.

Joe

perhasp you should try to modify the guide and replace the pickshoes with braid ?

A american guy make slide guides for h0 cars on routed tracks :

I bought some, but it's not very eficient on my plastic track. I found the wire too strong too...but the guide itself is well designed, and on a routed track, who knows ?


here's the adress :

http://www.horacepro.com/


hope it 'll help you :thumbsup:


I've got a friend who used this guides, I remember he modified it to make the wires more soft. I'll ask him .

Hi,

I found the informations about h0 slide guides, to use h0 cars on routed tracks and/or 1/32-1/24 tracks.

My friend (named Fred, I showed you some of his hotrods in the past) modified the slide guides.

Out of box, ho race pro slides guides use a big silicone wire to replace both the wires and the braid. But we found that the wire wasn't soft enough, causing problems (fronts wheels not on the track, deslots in curves, etc...)

So Fred found a solution : he replaced the feeding wires with a thin audio cable, and add real braids. The car runs great in his opinion.


Here 's some pics and 2 vids of a slide guided car (on a routed track and on a 1/24 Carrera test track )


http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/slotdem/dessus-1.jpg


http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/slotdem/dessous-1.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWa5fItp5pE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnMAojlLZcA




on the first vid, even if the video quality is crap, you can see that a classic coppertape routed track CAN run h0 cars that way. Hope it will help you on your project.


Dimitri

Joe
The Steely guys solder a piece of braid to the bottom of their pickup shoes. I wonder if that might not work for you?

Cheers, Ted

The Steely guys solder a piece of braid to the bottom of their pickup shoes. I wonder if that might not work for you?


it will work, I already tried it a long time ago. The problem is that the front wheels will not touch the track, especially "hard" pickup shoes like 440x2 chassis.

It's why the solution may be the slide guide, or even only replacing the shoes with braids and keep the pin.

You can make the pin thicker too : add a little plastic tubing on it.

THe important thing is that you can make "professional racing" even on a simple routed copper tape track :thumbsup:

The Steely guys solder a piece of braid to the bottom of their pickup shoes. I wonder if that might not work for you?

Hi Ted,
I am trying to create a routed track that requires no modification to the car or the pickup system. I want the cars to run on plastic track, railed track and braided/taped track. I have a LOT of cars. They would run differently on different surfaces, as the routed track would have far less magnetic downforce, but that is the point of doing a routed track (for me). I want a smooth track with little to no downforce. The Steely, I'm sure, provides some downforce, therefore they don't have the non-magnetic problem. Hence, my timid experiments with magnetic paint.


it will work, I already tried it a long time ago. The problem is that the front wheels will not touch the track, especially "hard" pickup shoes like 440x2 chassis.

As Demether correctly points out, even if you figure out the problem of getting good contact between shoes and tape, you are still left with the problem of the front tires not touching the track. Putting braid under the shoes should make this problem even worse.

One possible easy solution would be a heavier guide pin. This should be a simple design change as there is plenty of room to add weight to the topside of a metal pin (like Tyco, Tomy, Lifelike, etc.). Another solution would be to create a blade style guide pin (ala Aurora AFX) out of metal. This should have enough additional weight to pull the front end down and the bulk of the weight would be inside the slot, not top heavy. For T-Jets, the pin would be metal, adding a bit of weight to the front; or maybe even design a swival blade for T-Jets.

The heavier pin should provide enough additional weight to pull the front tires down on non-magnetic track. For magnetic track, maybe you go back to the lighter, plastic pins.

Joe

you should take a look on ho race pro slide guides : you might be happy with them, once you'll modify them a little (like my friend Fred did, see the vids and pics).


Since I'm making a lot of research for magnetless racing, I can say to you that the weight is not so important, finaly.

You'll need a clean track (really clean)

good silicon tires (good silicon slipon, or silisponge)

a controller adapted to the track lenght , voltage and type (on my own setup, parma eco 45ohm is the lowest barely useable controller, but I'll swap it to 60-90 ohm soon for more comfort).

a adapted voltage (12-14 volts range is good).

and perhaps on several chassis, modify the gear setting.

ski shoes (on a plastic track, of course).



My "tyco pan jet" (magnetless version of the tyco 440x2 widepan) runs verywell even without a lot of weight additions. I simply added more weight than I needed to make the car more comfortable to my newbie friends.



My humble advise should be "don't try to reinvent the wheel" : find a sample of Ho race pro slide guide (or other brand if any exists), and make tests, modifications, to the point you'll have one perfect chassis running : so you'll be able to validate and compare the next ones after that.

you should take a look on ho race pro slide guides : you might be happy with them, once you'll modify them a little (like my friend Fred did, see the vids and pics).

There's no doubt in my mind that the slide guides would work. But I do not want to make any modifications to the car in order for it to run on a magnetless, or low downforce, track.

Making a heavier pin seems like a simple solution and one which requires no modification (other than swapping out the pin).

I am currently awaiting a restock of braid. I already have one of the three lanes set up with copper tape. I am going to do one of the other lanes with regular (non-magnetic) braid, and the other with Magnatech (magnetic) braid. Then I can compare all three types on one oval before any paint is laid down.

One thing I did notice that is probably going to be a problem. I routed 1/8" slots. It seems skinny T-Jet tires can go down into the slot (when you are fishtailing) and deslot your car, as well as knock the tire off the rim. I may have to rethink a 1/8" slot if I plan to use skinny rear tires on T-Jets.

Joe

Making a heavier pin seems like a simple solution and one which requires no modification (other than swapping out the pin).


Not speaking about tjets, the other cars will need (IMHO and personal experiments) modifications, especially for the weight. You'll have to replace the traction magnets with weight to obtain a decent traction and handling. See the gjet, t2jets, or even the brass riggen or tycopros : the weight (and silicone tires of course) brings traction.

I run magnetless cars under 14volt on a tyco track: even if I keep motor magnets traction (tyco 440, tjet), I need the extra weights. The only cars wich I can run without extra weight are the xtraction/magnatractions because they're designed to run with the little motor magnet traction they have, used as a "simulation" of weight.


Since you want to use some cars designed to run with magnets on a steel plastic track on a diferent surface (in that case, routed wood track with braid or coppertape), it will be difficult to keep them in stock form and have good results and performances.


The slide guide can be a key (after all, it 's just a pin guide replacement part, with 2 small solding points), but you'll see it 's not the only one (especially voltage, tires and controller ohmage too) to run without magnets ;)


Or...simply run cars designed to run magnetless out of box : riggen, tycopro, superII, afx, tjet, etc...


Braid for h0 track...I know some people use it, but as yoy spoke about tjets, they 're so light and have so small tires, I believe the braid can be a problem for a good running...But I can't say that for sure, since I didn't try it.



Anyway, good luck for your experiment, and keep us informed about your progress :thumbsup:

Joe
Some guys are putting a styrene tube over the guide pin to make the pin thicker for wider guide slots.
Just recently I have soldered a piece of braid to the power pickup contact. I used a short piece of solder wick called super wick. The stuff that people use to desolder joints and soak up the solder.
I also read where even two coats of magnetic paint made a difference to the handeling of cars on the corners.
Pics now.

Cheers Ted