http://www.teamtrinity.com/

I guess we are offically live on HobbyTalk!! So far so good!! Thanks to all for all the support.

Steve

i have been asking for a small fee of 59.00 per year to join the tour and each paid member will get a sham wow! hope you don't mind?

Kat, If my wife already has a shamwow can I get a discount or even a senior citizens early bird special?

Kat, If my wife already has a shamwow can I get a discount or even a senior citizens early bird special?

Ron just take the extra shamwow. You will need it to polish Humpty's head.

Now, thats a lot of polishing, maybe I can get a Mcquires sponsorship!

Ron just take the extra shamwow. You will need it to polish Humpty's head.

now thats funny :p

Come on, lets think big with the SnugWow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKQDG4101A

Hank, Ann Landers would tell ya to get counseling!!!

Too Funny!

Kid

Will you allow the homebuit rear wings on the Protoform cot body as listed in the protoform cot body topic on the protoform forum here on Hobby Talk?

Siggy,

Yes, any wing built to the specs in our rules will be legal. I defined all of the measurements and gave us +/- 1/8". Homemade or aftermarket is fine.

Steve

can you imagine just how much sweat that sham snug thing will wisp away from my body while racing my 1 cell 7.5 car on a hot florida day? oh it is glorius....throw a tour logo on it and i'll buy it!

Steve,Got your pm.Thanks for the flip,I'll be getting back to you soon.


Dan

I cant get the rules to open itworked the other day

I cant get the rules to open itworked the other day

I just tried them and are working now. Let me know if you continue to have trouble and I will email them to you.

So if a guy ran 17.5 4-cell in the BRL he would go to the COT class?

Yes. 13.5 1C is close to the same as 17.5 4cell. If the 17.5 4 cell class was to fast for you the TOUR came up with the 17.5 1C Truck class as well. This is a starter class, and is for the new guys to get going in Pan cars and Oval

Siggy,

Yes, any wing built to the specs in our rules will be legal. I defined all of the measurements and gave us +/- 1/8". Homemade or aftermarket is fine.

Steve

Sorry Steve, I don't think Home made wings are a good idea. I can see everyone having 10 different wings in their box to tune the cars. As a co-promoter, I don't want to constantly be teching wings. If it is the molded wing that came with the body or an Approved molded aftermarket wing I would be fine with this. Our track is run by volunteers who race also and we all take turns teching cars. If we decide to adopt the TOUR Rules, the wing issue will be one we will be tweaking.

I think the problem of having a stock replacement wing has been brought to the attention of Protoform. If I understand correctly they are going to market a stock replacement wing. I will try and confirm this. I will also ck with McAllister to see if they have any plans of doing the same.

That would be great. If both companies make a stock replacement wing, it would be easy to eliminate the homemade wings. The less we have to tech, the better. We would like to adopt the rules, but we are a smaller track that is non-profit and all volunteers, so we need to do what is easiest for the track and best for our local racers. Thanks for the feedback.

no reply for Dale yet but Gary of McAllister has them available. Will keep you informed

After talking to Steve the other night it was my understanding the reason the wing rule was set this way is because protoform was not gonig to make a replacement wing. So if only one company was going to make a replacement and you are going to have to put it on a different manuf. body you could just make your own. and save a few bucks. As far as teching goes we used a dowl rod in the old days with marks on it. It just takes 3 marks one for length, height, width it only takes a few seconds to slide it around the wing. hope this helps. :thumbsup:

Siggy,

Yes, any wing built to the specs in our rules will be legal. I defined all of the measurements and gave us +/- 1/8". Homemade or aftermarket is fine.

Steve

I think an 1/8" is too much leeway i think the rule should read just like it is on the protoform thread or protoform needs to step up and make wings available:
Exact wording:
- Only one wing allowed, and must be screwed to the body’s 2 molded-in wing struts. The wing must be no wider than 6 ½ inches including the outer spill plates. The cord length of the wing cannot exceed 1 3/8ths inch (measured from leading edge of the wind to the trailing edge) The wing may be made of molded lexan, fabricated lexan or may be injection molded plastic/vinyl. No additional wings or spoilers.
- The wing spill plates are to be no larger than 1 5/8th in. long x 1 ¼ in. tall

just have them mold 3 extra wings into the body instead of 1 and cut em out... problem solved.

LOL!!!

That would be great. If both companies make a stock replacement wing, it would be easy to eliminate the homemade wings. The less we have to tech, the better. We would like to adopt the rules, but we are a smaller track that is non-profit and all volunteers, so we need to do what is easiest for the track and best for our local racers. Thanks for the feedback.

Do you have the same problem with teching wings in all the existing classes?
Not trying to be a smartie pants, but if a class is allowed a wing there are rules the wing must fit (even in the old stock days). It seems like Dale doesn't want to make a stand alone wing for the protoform COT, and the McAllister won't fit (wing struts on wing vs. on body). So the cheapest thing we can do for the racers is to allow homemade wings fitting the template of the original.

I can't remember one time I've ever seen a wing teched at a race I've attended, be it ROAR regionals, BRL events, or Snowbirds.

We have heard for Dale, He is trying to get something worked out.

from what we are hearing the only major problem seems to be on the outside fast tracks. Got some feed back from Fla last night saying they were not having any major problems with wing failure. It seemed if the wreck was bad enought to destroy the wing it did the body also.

Dale hopes to have a answer in a few day. Hopefully this will solve everything.

Is'nt the COT wing mounted the same as a TC car? Maybe someone with TC experience can give us some help in how they handle wings.

They run throw away extra thin bodies because they're crazier than we are :)
If their wing gets screwed up, the rest of the body is trash...

Good to hear that Dale's still open to working on something, Alan. It kind of sounded like he didn't want to have anything to do with making another mold of just wings over in his thread.

If Dale can't come up with something maybe we have find an approved aftermarket wing. I am not against making your own, but if some are maybe we can get an approved one or something to make it easier.

Either way I think it is good that we can talk about this stuff constructively.

When ARCOR first tried the 21.5/COT class they allowed the McAllister wing, a molded from HPI and a Touring car wing from BRP. Sorry part numbers escape me. This might be the way to go.

good idea dub...

hey guys here is the pn for the hpi wing 85197

oh i just want to say I would like to support TOUR but I am in the land of the lost were we are troubled buy the round cell and lipos scare owners

Do you have the same problem with teching wings in all the existing classes?
Not trying to be a smartie pants, but if a class is allowed a wing there are rules the wing must fit (even in the old stock days). It seems like Dale doesn't want to make a stand alone wing for the protoform COT, and the McAllister won't fit (wing struts on wing vs. on body). So the cheapest thing we can do for the racers is to allow homemade wings fitting the template of the original.

I can't remember one time I've ever seen a wing teched at a race I've attended, be it ROAR regionals, BRL events, or Snowbirds.

Nobody runs wings at our track. The speeds aren't fast enough to need one. If Dale can't sell a stand alone wing, the body shouldn't be approved. Our track rules will only allow stock wings cut on the lines. This TOUR thing is supposed to make things easier, instead it is giving us a lot more to tech. This is why we were against the COT body. Last year we teched weight, battery temp and battery voltage. This year we have to tech that stuff along with wing dimensions, roof heights and splitter dimensions.

We also don't like the fact that the 13.5 class is interpreted as a half step above beginner class. 13.5 Single Cell is perfect for our track size. A lot of us want to go faster, but the faster speeds on our track size, just doesn't make for good racing or fun at all. People need to realize slowing down sometimes makes for better racing. Just think how terrible a nascar race would be on a 1/4 mile track.

As I posted before, we are a small track that is non-profit run by volunteers in a rec. center. Not all of us have the luxury of running on a 150'+ track. And when I say volunteers, I mean racers. NO one is willing to quit racing to run the show or tech cars. It gets hard enough sometimes and now we have even more to worry about. When posted on our thread that we weren't going to run the COT, everyone ridiculed our decision. I understand people want to follow the TOUR rules, but sometimes everyone needs to put themselves in our shoes.

I think some of the people putting the TOUR together should have talked to small track owners or thought about us a little bit more instead of just the 4 big events. Now to avoid having only 15 guys each week, we have to follow this. So when our rules are finalized, it is only going to be an interpretation of the TOUR rules. We will follow the best we can with minor tweaks to make things easier for us running the show. If people stay away, then so be it.

I recieved a phone call today asking me if I was up to date on the various treads that pertain to the "TOUR". Like a numbskull, I asked him what he meant by the "TOUR"? :o As a result of the call I'm logging on to these threads for the first time. I had talked to Steve P a few times about the COT class etc, but somehow I never picked up on the name of the series. Doh!

Sometimes I feel a bit like that guy at the circus that spins multiple plates at the same time. He’s gotta keep them all spinning or they fall and break. Well, trying to do winning body designs for 1/12th, 1/10th & 1/8th On-Road, World GT, Electric Sedan, 200mm Gas Sedan, Mini, Micro, F1(soon) and 3 classes of NASCAR Oval keeps my head spinning at times. Every once in a while I need a phone call like that to see that I’ve developed another case of skull-cramp. :freak:

Regarding the COT/wing discussion, I’ve read your opinions regarding aftermarket and molded (improvised) wings and it seems that a lot of you guys are not too keen on them. The solution is no big deal impo. We’ll gladly supply an oem TCC style wing if you guys think it will simplify things and cut down on any potential controversy. I’m creating a double COT/TOUR spec. rear wing that will be either sold separately or possibly included in the bag with the TCC body. (with an adjusted price) Proline is working out those marketing details as we speak. It’ll be molded in nice heavy duty .040 lexan.

I’ll let you know more as I know more.

Best regards – Dale Epp - Protoform

So you never checked roof height or spoiler height either? Width? Wheelbase? Inductance? Ride Height? etc.
There are rules for all those things but you didn't tech them. You allowed the racers to govern themselves, only teching the "important/easy" things. Nobody expects you to tech splitter height, roof height, hood height, wing standoffs, wing side plates, wing chord, wing width, etc on all cars. If a question of legality comes up (i.e. somebody starts bitching) you can tech the car in question and determine if its legal. Think NASCAR or even Saturday Night short track racing. You're given a rule book and build your car accordingly. When you go through tech they don't check everything (you'd have to do a complete tear-down), but at any time you can be subjected to a full inspection and your car better fit the rules or its DQ city.

As far as a half-step above the beginner class, I'm not sure where you get that from. Most places in the northeast can only realistically run 13.5 races due to size. Its why 17.5 4cell has been so popular. Here in the midwest we've got tracks that are 150 ft + and guys are still loving the racing in 13.5 1c. By definition, there has to be a slowest TOUR class, and 13.5 1c is it. That doesn't make it any less worthy than 7.5 or 10.5, it just gets listed first in the order.

Again, I'm not trying to be a smart-alec, I'm just saying that the rules can work anywhere. If your local racers are turned off by the rules, you try to make a compromise. If everybody wants to limit it to brand X for batteries, then go for it. If they want to run brand x motors only, do it. TOUR rules were not meant to drive racers away, but to give a common ruleset so that the oval community can grow together across the country, instead of becoming even more split.

We also don't like the fact that the 13.5 class is interpreted as a half step above beginner class.

Probably the wording has thrown some people off...
This is the entry point where the “hobby” becomes a “sport” to some degree.

Could be misinterpreted as "entry level" (even though 17.5 Truck is designated as such). In many places, this (13.5 1c) is the top class, so some may have read too much into this and thought their top dog class was being belittled in the TOUR package. However, I think if you just take it for what it's worth, the line from the rules is just saying that it's an actual racing class, not a newbie, "i just want to drive around" class. (hobby vs. sport) By entry point, it means STOCK CLASS.

Frank, I see where your coming from, but I have to tell you... I run on a track smaller than yours every week, and while 13.5 is the standard class, we have run 21.5 and had a blast with it. Honestly, teching the COT bodies shouldn't be as hard as it sounds. As far as heights, thats easy... is it cut at the body line on the mold? These bodies don't have nearly the amount of adjustability that the current nationwide style bodies have, so the should be pretty easy to see if they are legal or not. The wing issue doesn't seem to be an issue now that Dale says they are working on it.

NOt ever being at our track, makes it hard for you to continue to throw out opinions about it. When we ran 13.5 4-Cell, it was too quick for the lack of bite. When you roll up the carpet every week, it is like starting over each week when it comes to traction. We also do not allow paragon. I have raced on smaller tracks over the years, and they had a ton more bite since they were permanant facilities. Unless we have 40+ guys, the traction for speeds faster 13.5 Single Cell, 4 Cell Stock, or 17.5 4-Cell just isn't there. So to compare your smaller track to ours is like apples to oranges, they are both round, but completely different.



Regarding the COT/wing discussion, I’ve read your opinions regarding aftermarket and molded (improvised) wings and it seems that a lot of you guys are not too keen on them. The solution is no big deal impo. We’ll gladly supply an oem TCC style wing if you guys think it will simplify things and cut down on any potential controversy. I’m creating a double COT/TOUR spec. rear wing that will be either sold separately or possibly included in the bag with the TCC body. (with an adjusted price) Proline is working out those marketing details as we speak. It’ll be molded in nice heavy duty .040 lexan.

I’ll let you know more as I know more.

Best regards – Dale Epp - Protoform

Great job Dale! This takes the headache away from us.

Probably the wording has thrown some people off...


Could be misinterpreted as "entry level" (even though 17.5 Truck is designated as such). In many places, this (13.5 1c) is the top class, so some may have read too much into this and thought their top dog class was being belittled in the TOUR package. However, I think if you just take it for what it's worth, the line from the rules is just saying that it's an actual racing class, not a newbie, "i just want to drive around" class. (hobby vs. sport) By entry point, it means STOCK CLASS.

You hit the nail on the head here. A lot of people I have talked to are interpreting the 13.5 Class as being a class for newer racers.

i think it's the fact that bud denning runs 13.5 1 cell cot that is giving the impression that it's for noobs! booooooyahhhhhh!!!!!!


look the classes and rules do not fit or work for every track...we run outdoors on big tracks in florida and were not affraid to put some HP in our cars..so the rules don't fit our club races like a glove either...but you must attend to the needs of the many..not the few..(star trek quote)

does nascar allow different wings on their cot bodies?

NASCAR uses handout wings...lol.

Hi guys,

Thanks for all of the constructive feedback and spirited discussion. The non-constructive feedback and useless discussion I could do without. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which was which. LOL

Let me discuss a few points:

Capet Mulisha: I know Frank Mertz. He is a great guy with strong opinions like the rest of us. I pitted across from him several times at Marshalls. He reminds me of the late great Paul Heitz when we talk. (It's gotta be the NJ accent!!) He does not look near as good as the picture he has in his Avatar LOL But all joking aside, Frank, I understand your concerns.

First, with regard to 13.5 being the "entry point where the hobby becomes a sport". I sincerely want to apologize if I offended anyone, as that was not the intent. Having said that, I stand by that statement because I choose my words very carefully. But the purpose was to convey a message to racers that there needs to be a PROGRESSION through the classes in our hobby or there will be no place for racers to develop and succeed.

I would ask that no one bother trying to “spin” my statement. I was clear in defining the there will be Major champions crowned in our 3 Tour Championship Classes, of which 13.5 is the 1st one listed. How much clearer can I be in giving the prestige to 13.5 that it deserves? It is equal in stature to 10.5 and 7.5.

But let me ask you all……..If you were “graduating” from the Sportsman class and were going to begin your first season pursing a TOUR championship………..which class would you start in?? 7.5?? 10.5?? or would 13.5 be your "entry point where the hobby becomes a sport"??

But I understand your point. At small tracks, 13.5 may be the fastest class offered. This will be the featured primary class with all of the best drivers running it. That’s fine. But that goes without saying. Apparently my statement may have been better phrased by saying “of the 3 TOUR Championship classes, 13.5 represents the entry point where the hobby becomes a sport as compared to the other 2 classes.”

I’m a short track racer born and bred. Marshall’s is a super speedway for me. I did consider those issues as much as possible. I don’t particularly appreciate the suggestion that I should have done more…gone further…..surveyed more people. (i.e. I think some of the people putting the TOUR together should have talked to small track owners or thought about us a little bit more instead of just the 4 big events.)

This was a huge task. The 4 Big events were tough enough to sort out. If what we ended up with work for you, I’m glad I could be of help to you and your track, and I wish you great success. If certain things are not applicable to you, then do what’s best for racing, and I support your efforts.

See you at the track.

Steve

Throw the COT out! Problem solved!
Kid

Steve, I think you guys did a good thing ........ a basic rules package for all of oval racing to follow at the big races and smaller tracks. Obviously there will be times on the local level where not every class or rule can fit that track. Let's give this a chance before getting worked up about it.

Maybe Steve could post the rules again ? ......... TOUR is not excluding any class IMHO, if you read them they address all the classes that are currently being run and says if the class isint dying then keep supporting it and your local track.

Guys, no one ever said this was an end all be all to all the problems facing oval now. Frankly, our portion of the hobby has been in shambles for several years now, and the damage done over that time frame is not going to be fixed over night. Steve, Alan, and everyone else have stepped up to the plate to get us all going in the right direction, they have handed the baton off so to speak, no it's up to us to run with it or not.

I have ran on big tracks, small tracks, carpet tracks, paved tracks, premanent tracks, and temperorary tracks rolled up every week (which is in a rod and gun club, and yes does get lots of dirt and gun powder in the carpet). Do I agree with everything on the list as far as rules go? No I don't, but I look at it this way, fixing oval needs to be approached in stages. Stage one is structure. Over the past several years we had no structure, at all, everywhere was different. BRL Rules here, NEOT rules there, snowbird rules here, ROAR rules there, blah blah. Now we have structure, and one that is geared towards progression, similar equipment between classes, good balance in speed and speed difference between classes. There are always exceptions to the rules, is a 450 foot paved track going to run 13.5 single cell? Probably not, just like a 80 flat oval is probably not going to run 7.5.

My point is this, nothing here is mandated. If you can't run 7.5, don't, if 13.5 is too slow, don't run it. This package is for us to utilize to the best of our ability, it is not Steve, Alan, or anyone elses responsibility to make this work for everyone, because plain and simple that is impossible.

I could not have thought of anyone better to get this going than Steve, and approaching it the way he did was a stroke of genious. We need to be supporting these guys and eachother instead of constantly complaining or being negative.

Wow, a common sense approch. That is something new. I agree with Jeff.
Butch

Where can you find the rules and classes?

First post of this thread

Awesome work guys. Makes me wish I was still racing.

I thought ARCOR had some good ideas but our problem was that if a track ran an established track, ARCOR would adopt it. So it went from 3 or 4 classes to about 10 in a matter of a year. So if I can add some advice keep it simple and limit the amount of classes as the TOUR goes forward.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Has anybody brought up the 4.24V rule yet?

IMHO it needs to be changed to 4.22V

Who cares about what ROAR set it at!

If it stays to 4.24V, you'll see guys overcharging their 1s Lipo in NiMh mode so they ramp it up near 4.24V ... do we really want that?

Most software I know cuts off at 4.20 ... some others at 4.22 ... will we see charger of the month for that sweet software that charge up to 4.24V?

Just my 2 cents.

Steve.