I understand that the Enterprise is built on the ground but the movie does not show how it gets into space. Now this has been on the minds of many as to why it was built on the ground when the nacells would never hold up in Earths gravity. Now come to find that we never know how it gets into space? Launched? Transported? :freak::(

I was wondering this myself. I was also wondering how they will reconcile this with the fact that it has long been established that the Enterprise was built in space at San Francisco yards?

The selectively manipulate gravity.....why shouldn't they be able to support the nacelles or any other part of the ship?

I was also wondering how they will reconcile this with the fact that it has long been established that the Enterprise was built in space at San Francisco yards?

WARNING! POTENTIAL SPOILER BELOW!



I thought it was pretty widely known by now that Trek history has been altered as the result of time travel. In other words, the term "long been established" no longer applies to this new branch of time.

Just go see the movie. All will be explained!

Who cares. In the words of our favorite 3 foot tall green Jedi 'You must unlearn what you have learned.' if they've got the technology to build this thing in gravity without it buckling and have it go hundreds of times faster than light...I'd suspect they'd figured out how to get it into orbit, yes?

I bet the Shat-man is wondering if he can worm himself into the next Trek movie now that it is established that the future has been altered so that Kirk may not die after slipping on a banana peel and fallling off the girders in Generations.

Huzz

Mr. Scotts' Guide to the Enterprise states that the E was built in pieces on Earth and then assembled in space.

I bet the Shat-man is wondering if he can worm himself into the next Trek movie now that it is established that the future has been altered so that Kirk may not die after slipping on a banana peel and fallling off the girders in Generations.They can control gravity, but people still slip on banana peels? :p

Mr. Scotts' Guide to the Enterprise states that the E was built in pieces on Earth and then assembled in space.

That was also my understanding as well. Build the whole thing where breathing and getting labor to the jobsite is cheap. Make sure it all works before committing it to an enviroment where it's waaaay more expensive to fix things. Disassemble the pieces. Ship them to your orbital assembly station. Put it together. Go save the galaxy.

John O.

WARNING! POTENTIAL SPOILER BELOW!



I thought it was pretty widely known by now that Trek history has been altered as the result of time travel. In other words, the term "long been established" no longer applies to this new branch of time.

Just go see the movie. All will be explained!

OK ! Acually I am going to see it no matter what. Sorry if I rained on anyones parade here. I haven't kept up on ST eventsand wasn't aware that time travel had done that in the ST universe but that would be a good explanation !

I bet the Shat-man is wondering if he can worm himself into the next Trek movie now that it is established that the future has been altered so that Kirk may not die after slipping on a banana peel and fallling off the girders in Generations.

Huzz

Could someone explain how the future was altered? I've missed something I don't want to hijack the threa so a pm would be cool ?! Thank you

Ok. This is a spoiler thread, so no one shoot me for writing about the movie.

I was thinking that after the Narada attacked the Kelvin, and it became known that there is a big black spaceship sneeking around the galaxy that can take out starships, maybe Starfleet decided to build ships on the ground where they would be less vulnerable to attack. That would be in keeping with the "altered timeline" theme of the movie.

Just a random thought.

Thunderbolt - PM sent!

Huzz

Thunderbolt - PM sent!

Huzz

Thanks a lot for that, Dave. I tried to pm you back but your mailbox is full. That cleared up a lot and it makes alot of sence to me now. Can't wait to see the movie

Sorry but MR Scotts guide to the E was hardly canon.

well, since the movie stated that it was three years between the time Kirk saw the construction and the miden voyage, there was plenty of time for the ship to be built, deconstructed, moved into orbit, reconstructed, have the antimatter installed and undergo warp trials before the events of the film

Sorry but MR Scotts guide to the E was hardly canon.

I'm sorry but where is the line for canon drawn??? :confused:

The Kobiashu Maru scenario wasn't known about till TWOK and yet it's considered canon. I'm a fairly open minded fan for me anything to do with TOS is canon as long as it happened, is mentioned etc from the origional, animated and first 6 films. So If it something a publisher put out eg MR Scotts guide to the E. Then "I" would consider much of it to be canon.

Please understand I'm not trying to flame you I just have trouble with the whole start and end of "canon" issue.

Cheers,

Alec.

. . . I'm a fairly open minded fan for me anything to do with TOS is canon as long as it happened, is mentioned etc from the origional, animated and first 6 films. So If it something a publisher put out eg MR Scotts guide to the E. Then "I" would consider much of it to be canon.Arguing about what constitutes or does not constitute Star Trek "canon" reminds me of what they say about arguing on the Internet (I'm pretty sure we've all heard that one by now).

To many fans, not only is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier NOT canon -- it's heresy!

Arguing about what constitutes or does not constitute Star Trek "canon" reminds me of what they say about arguing on the Internet (I'm pretty sure we've all heard that one by now).

To many fans, not only is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier NOT canon -- it's heresy!

Uhhmm I didn't realize I was arguing... My apologies if it seems that way. In essance I was just wondering where the line is drawn to say it's not canon??? But I guess it's something I'll have my own conclusions to as do many others I suspect. :)

Cheers,

Alec.

well, since the movie stated that it was three years between the time Kirk saw the construction and the miden voyage, there was plenty of time for the ship to be built, deconstructed, moved into orbit, reconstructed, have the antimatter installed and undergo warp trials before the events of the film

It wasn't a biggy with me in the film I just took it for what it was. :) Though I must admit Lou that your take on it works a treat with me and makes damn good sense too. :thumbsup: the only pity was that we never got to see anymore of the fleet. As I have been wondering how many of them were "Kelvin" class or based on said class as opposed to the new Constitution class. But judging on the ships sent out to investigate Nero I'd say they were proberbly the older class styles.

Cheers,

Alec. :wave:

Perhaps the best way to look at the events in this film is to look at it as the New Star Trek and keep the events that happen in this film in this version of Star Trek.On opening night I told my friend to view this film in the way of the Reimagined Battlestar Galactica.I will keep this version separate from the Original Star Trek.Thats my opinion and I think it may work to look at it this way.

As regards Star Trek, "canon" is what's seen on-screen, and specifically, what's seen on screen latest. The books, comics, games and even the animated series (TAS) are not considered canon.

Roddenberry did not consider TAS as canon, and it's stayed that way. Some TAS stuff has managed to creep back into canon through "Enterprise" and the remastered episodes of TOS.

What's canon has always been in flux. Some details in TOS were later contradicted in the movies and even further in subsequent series.

As regards the new movie, the writers have indicated that it takes place in an alternate universe, which is created when Nero and Spock Prime travel through a singularity. All the elements of Trek that have previously occurred are still safe and sound in the original Trek universe.

Roddenberry considered canon as what happened on screen, not books. And I believe he did not include the animated series either. I think that's the only way to view it. You can't expect any film maker to be tied down by the sheer volume of 40 years worth of material that has been put out there by a wide variety of sources and is subject to differing interpretations and imaginations of individual authors/publishers. Otherwise we'll soon be arguing canon violations from comic book plots and the backs of toy boxes.

While it seems strange to build such a ship on earth and not in orbit as one is used to in Trek history, it seems pretty obvious that it was done simply as an impressive visual.

The fact that they don't show it launch doesn't bother me and reinforced in my mind that the only reason they did that was for the visual.

It wasn't a biggy with me in the film I just took it for what it was. :) Though I must admit Lou that your take on it works a treat with me and makes damn good sense too. :thumbsup: the only pity was that we never got to see anymore of the fleet. As I have been wondering how many of them were "Kelvin" class or based on said class as opposed to the new Constitution class. But judging on the ships sent out to investigate Nero I'd say they were proberbly the older class styles.

Cheers,

Alec. :wave:

Well, we did see several different ship configurations when the fleet gathers for the jump to Vulcan. There was even one that looked a bit like the Relinat style ship. We only got to see the for a few mere seconds in one piece before they jumped away ahead of the Enterprise.

Did anyone else notice the TMP reference in Aprils' new uniform at the end? I liked that.

As regards Star Trek, "canon" is what's seen on-screen, and specifically, what's seen on screen latest. The books, comics, games and even the animated series (TAS) are not considered canon.

Roddenberry did not consider TAS as canon, and it's stayed that way. Some TAS stuff has managed to creep back into canon through "Enterprise" and the remastered episodes of TOS.

You mean, like, one of Larry Niven's Kzin showing up in the background in an episode of DS9?

Yep. I think there were a few background references to the Kzinti in TNG too.

No Talus 4. Now that sucks. Pike and Spock shared much together and the movie just threw that in the toilet. I also think the movie should have put Kirk on the Farragot and then had him take command at a later point. The promotion was just contrived and ruined it, IMHO.

Yeah. That's pretty stupid. I mean, it would like assembling the space station here on Earth and shipping into orbit in a shuttle.

Oh, wait.

Jim

At least with Kobiashu Maru scenario, they kept that part of the movie fairly accurate with what we already knew from Star Trek 2. Although, I do not think Kirk was that arrogant while he "passing" the test.

I would also have like to see the other ships for more than the second or two on screen.

In my opion one of the glaring errors that is unexplained by the film - if this is a time screw up caused by Nero and Spock going back in time - Why did so much technology change? I can understand changes to some of the people, but not the technology.

Did anybody else catch this error in the film: When Enterprise is "leaving" the station you hear them issuing the standard commands, "release unbilicals", ect. But when they recut to the exterior views - they are nowhere near the station.

if this is a time screw up caused by Nero and Spock going back in time - Why did so much technology change? I can understand changes to some of the people, but not the technology.Well, consider this. George Kirk died, where he originally did not. Everyone who would have served with him otherwise now does not -- and everyone those people will serve with will find a somewhat different person who never knew George Kirk, or who thinks of him differently because he was someone who died so they could live. The Kelvin was destroyed where it originally was not. Everyone who served aboard it will be reassigned elsewhere, and they will work with people other than those they originally would have. Some of them might retire where they originally would not. Some of them might stay in Starfleet where they originally might not. Every encounter and mission the Kelvin would have had in the prime universe will now be somewhat -- or a great deal -- different because there is no Kelvin. Some might die in situations where originally the Kelvin came to the rescue. Some might live where originally they died due to the Kelvin's actions. People will work together who otherwise might not, as stated above -- who can say what effect that might have on technology if some of those people are scientists? People who originally would not have met will meet -- how many marriages and friendships will result that otherwise might not? People who would have met now will not. How many marriages and friendships that otherwise would have happened now will not? In an indirect way, any of these differences could drive changes in the resulting technology.

That's just off the top of my head.

Qapla'

SSB

I don't understand all this talk about canons. I thought starships used phasers.

I don't understand all this talk about canons. I thought starships used phasers.They use phaser cannons. Don't you know anything!?

;)

Qapla'

SSB

I don't understand all this talk about canons. I thought starships used phasers.


can·on 1 (knn)
n.
1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council.
2. A secular law, rule, or code of law.
3.
a. An established principle: the canons of polite society.
b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion.
4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture.
5.
a. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: "the durable canon of American short fiction" William Styron.
b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.6. Canon The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and ending just before the Lord's Prayer.
7. The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
8. Music A composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time.

And this dude.

http://www.findagrave.com/photos/2004/352/4517_110340251022.jpg

Well, consider this. George Kirk died, where he originally did not...

SSB

None of that explains the Kelvin itself. That ship, with that bridge and a standard crew of eight hundred would not predate the Constitution era Enterprise. Accepting what we see on screen, Spock and the Narada could only have entered an already divergent timeline, or parallel universe, not have created one from that point of entry.

None of that explains the Kelvin itself. That ship, with that bridge and a standard crew of eight hundred would not predate the Constitution era Enterprise.I think there's no way around the idea that some things are going to be updated visually. And I'm not sure that the size of a ship's complement is necessarily directly coordinated with the level of sophistication of the ship. Perhaps the Kelvin carried 800-some-odd people because it needed them.

Qapla'

SSB

Considering that modern ships of that size carry around 5,000 people, 800 seems low and a Constitution class with only 400 people seems really low.

I think there's no way around the idea that some things are going to be updated visually. And I'm not sure that the size of a ship's complement is necessarily directly coordinated with the level of sophistication of the ship. Perhaps the Kelvin carried 800-some-odd people because it needed them.

Qapla'

SSB

Visually, I understand and accept. If I couldn't, I would take issue with Pine and Quint not resembling Shatner and Nimoy. :D

No, I accept some tech updates for granted. If nothing else, the existence of ENTERPRISE has prepared us existent Trek fans for things like that in this film. I wouldn't expect a retro Constitution-like bridge, but ENTERPRISE, for all it's anachronistic updates in relationship to TOS, did emphasize NX limitations to lessen it in regard to the Constitution. Here in this film we see a Kelvin, albeit not for very long, that is a vast improvement over TOS or TMP era ships with little to no impression at all that it would be a predecessor to them.

I fault that less compared to the other issue which is the more glaring, and possibly rectifiable, inconsistency.

Considering that modern ships of that size carry around 5,000 people, 800 seems low and a Constitution class with only 400 people seems really low.

I agree, and I do wonder if that fact is why we hear the crew complement as looped in dialogue from Greenwood offscreen, and not matching Pine's onscreen track. It may actually have been 200-400, and in hindsight, they thought that would be unrealistic. Also, since its saucer might be considered the same scale as the later shown Abramsprise.

However, in either instance, it's a big departure.

Again, with the windows shown, and shuttle size in comparison, do accommodations for 800 really look likely? Is that secondary hull also containing quarters? Is that only a nacelle, or is engineering in there too?

If those are clarified, it might be easier to accept that number.

As-is, I would still find it easier to believe this is an already alternate reality. That possibility might be good fodder for sequel scripts regardless of this issue anyhow. ;)

The Design of the ship grew on me in the movie. It looked sturdy.

Its quite obvious that JJ abramas didnt give a rats rear end, as to what Roddenberry laid out in classic trek, nor did he care about the Characters, and how they originally developed, from what we knew..He was going for an audience that was too young to actually know or remember classic Trek, and if some classic fans jumped on board..so much the better..cant make a successful movie solely with whats left of those that were around for the original series..He also decided to make it more like "star Wars" and have shoot em ups like that, to keep the audiences dazzled..I guess the traditional and very powerful beam weapon phasers werent exciting enough..even if they could Vaporize something...its better to just have short blasts that bounce off or burn something or someone..lol
Therefore, He simply kept the characters original names..and started from scratch...Nothing more..I havent seen the movie, nor do I really intend to as I had said earlier, until maybe its on DVD..In any case..From what I have heard..its not my idea of classic Trek..sure, the effects are great, but nowadays any movie can have great effects...thats easy..in my case, its too far off the beaten track of the Star Trek I grew up with know and enjoyed..But thats my take on it.. and judging from the revenue its pulled in..The general public seems to love it...

Wow...haven't seen it........sounds like a great place to start with a criticism. Reminds me of getting my daughter to eat peas or anything "green".

Perhaps the Kelvin carried 800-some-odd people because it needed them.

Qapla'

SSB

That's exactly what I figured. As technology advances, less people are needed to perform the duties. Some machines would be able to perform a lot more tasks. Ever watch The Jetsons? George only had to push ONE button.

I tend to agree that the timeline where Vulcan is destroyed has to be a parallel universe. I'm just at a loss in trying to figure out why none of the crew realized it.....especially Spock Prime.

He did, hence forth his message to the young Spock at the end.

I tend to agree that the timeline where Vulcan is destroyed has to be a parallel universe. I'm just at a loss in trying to figure out why none of the crew realized it.....especially Spock Prime.

They did, so did the original Spock. My point, is that from the outset (that is, when the Narada arrived into this timeline/reality/universe) things were already different before the Kelvin and Vulcan were destroyed.

Its quite obvious that JJ abramas didnt give a rats rear end, as to what Roddenberry laid out in classic trek, nor did he care about the Characters, and how they originally developed, .....

No, it's not quite obvious.

I grew up in the 60s and am a fan of TOS in the same way I'm a fan of The Outer Limits or The Twilight Zone or any other good classic television series from that era. Star Trek is a damned good movie and it does what was absolutely necesarry (inject life into a dying franchise that had been feeding on itself for years) with intelligence, artistry, and fidelity to the original characters and concepts first conceived by Roddenberry four decades ago. I'm not a big fan of movie "blockbusters" but this one does what it is supposed to do and delivers on pretty much all cylinders without diminishing, disrespecting, or misunderstanding it's original source.

That was also my understanding as well. Build the whole thing where breathing and getting labor to the jobsite is cheap. Make sure it all works before committing it to an enviroment where it's waaaay more expensive to fix things. Disassemble the pieces. Ship them to your orbital assembly station. Put it together. Go save the galaxy.

John O.

From an Engineering standpoint that is a VERY inefficient way of building something. You don't build it, then take it apart just to move it somewhere else and put it back together.

Look at how the newest Aircraft Carriers are built. The are built in "cells" on location and then moved and attached to the ship for final assembly. You would do it the same way. Build the subsection, heavy lift them into orbit and then put them together there where gravity won't hinder your manipulating them as needed.

He did, hence forth his message to the young Spock at the end.

It didn't seem to me that he knew it was a parallel timeline. In fact, he didn't want to say "Live long and prosper", because he felt it would be self-serving. If he'd thought Master Spock was his own earlier self, then the statement would be self-serving. If he'd thought Master Spock was not his own earlier self, then there'd be no reason to refrain from saying it.

Who says they disassembled it? Perhaps it was lifted up somehow.

How do Shuttlecraft go up? They don't have wings, or jets, or any other apparent means of lift. They just go up.

Maybe Space Helium.

Maybe they used a heavy duty freight transporter.