i mean you guys who think GL robbed you of your childhood my making inferior prequels, sequels, countless versions of Star Wars on dvd, etc.etc....

if George died tommorrow..........

would you be all of a sudden start loving him again even though at one point you declared he ruined your childhood or you swore never to buy another dvd version of Star Wars??

Why ... yes! Yes, we would! Thank you for putting things into perspective.

No problems here. I never felt that Lucas was a talented enough thief to steal my childhood.

Now, that nefarious Santa Claus guy....

So what are you planning to do to George Lucas?? :confused:

Yeah Griff that Santa guy is the worse ..GL couldn't steal my childhood I was 22 in 1977

Granted, George surrounded himself with toadies and yes-men which led to his corrpution But do people actually hate him?

If anything, it was the re-release in '97 that finally got me on the road to following my childhood dream to work in the movies -that dream being sparked by SW in '77. Now I'm here. If it weren't for him, I don't know what I'd be doing with my life.

So, are you saying that George Lucas became The Emporer, Model Man...? Kinda sounds like you're making a correlary, man.

;)

You could be right, Griff. It's more likely that yes-men surrounded George, who then succumbed to the dark side. It's Anakin all over again. sigh.

Regardless of which side he is, was, will be, his films can always be re-re-edited by fans to blend the best of all worlds. The jar-jar-less TPM is much improved, (but still a flawed gem for so many other reasons).

Personally, I hope the stereoscoping of SW is still on course. I'm worried as I haven't heard anything about it in the last year or so. The one test I saw was phenomenal.

Sorry to go OT.

I don't think I ever hated him, I just think he became a bit ridiculous and unimaginative.

Hate Lucas? For being a so-so director while at the same time becoming one of Hollywood's most powerful and skilled Producers? He is what he is. That he "industrialized" and ligitimized the art of special effects for regular consumption, and addicted viewers (over may more films than just Star Wars) to his product in a way no-one had before is a lot to admire.

John O.

I just think he became a bit ridiculous and unimaginative.

Ya, then there's that. I think it's an effect of spending too much time running a business which supports a particular craft while not actually having time to practice the craft yourself.

John O.

That's a strange question. They're only movies. I was 14 when the first film came out, and that memory isn't going anywhere. Haters need to form a support group with the Trek guys.

I'm just disappointed that the love of effects technology has been substituted for storytelling. One of the many reasons the original films work so well is that there are peaks and valleys in the pacing of story, character development and effects showcase sequences. The prequels are not much more than one long effects shot with too much visual clutter. Of course, you could say that about a lot of films nowadays.

I'm just disappointed that the love of effects technology has been substituted for storytelling. One of the many reasons the original films work so well is that there are peaks and valleys in the pacing of story, character development and effects showcase sequences. The prequels are not much more than one long effects shot with too much visual clutter. Of course, you could say that about a lot of films nowadays.

Word!

Why ... yes! Yes, we would! Thank you for putting things into perspective.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes, Dave P put it most elequently!

"And now you're punching, and you're kicking and you're punching at me
I'm relying on your common decency
So far it hasn't surfaced
But I'm sure it exists
It just takes a while to travel From your head to your fist"

- Depeche Mode, People are People

How can you hate GL, he gave us the most imaginative, original character ever in a motion picture!

JAR JAR BINKS

Mesa don't care, you don't like mesa!

I don't have the harsh views of the prequels that many do. I agree that Phantom Menace was uninspired, and things got a bit better with Clones and more so with Revenge of the Sith.

I think a lot of it has to with casting of dull actors. In particular, Hayden Christensen. the guy is so wooden. Imagine Episodes II and III with Skywalker / Vader portrayed with truly devilish zeal by someone like Colin Farrell or Clive Owen.

Huzz

Hating George Lucas is like hating Walt Disney. Having grown up with their films I find it impossible to do.

I think Lucas in particular has gotten a bum rap, but I certainly can't defend him against the surrounded-by-yes-men charges. My impression is that Marcia Lucas functioned as the "good" creative angel on George's shoulder, and once her influence fell by the wayside he sort of lost his way.

Still, I think the world Lucas created with Star Wars is an incredibly fun one to hang around in (warts and all). Lately I've gotten into the habit of watching Clone Wars with my sons, and like a lot of people I've found it to be surprisingly watchable (the writing in particular is a lot smarter than you might expect based on the lame movie that came out last summer).

Full disclosure: I once worked for Lucas (ILM to be precise) as a lowly production assistant, and I found him to be a decidedly fair, generous, and decent employer. Walt Disney would have been appalled.

Hate George Lucas? Not on your life... While he may have seemed to stray from his earlier patterns of filmmaking, the fact that he made 3 films that generations of people will get pleasure from, not to mention the number of advances to filmmaking (sound, editing, etc) that he's contributed far outweigh any negative elements along the way.

Do I think that he's a god? Hardly, but he's contributed so much and in some ways inspired so many others. His recent films may not be inspiring to some, but his earlier efforts spawned a few generations of people now working in the industry, it's hard to ignore.

I know that some folks don't care for Lucas in general for their own personal reasons, but that's their problem, not his.

Bryan

I am still confused. Why make another Clone War series? I like the first one, and it did tie in with Episodes 2 & 3.

How can I hate the man who gave me Indiana Jones?

Larry

He's a sad, sad example of squandered talent. Bloated, unimaginitive...sad. He is Citizen Kane.

And I don't want him to die but it wouldn't bother me a lot if he did.

Wow. That post makes me sad.

Seriously, by what cruel measuring stick has the guy who gave the world Luke Skywalker and Indiana Jones squandered his talent? :freak:

How much entertainment would Lucas have had to provide before you'd feel inclined to give him a pass?

This notion that Lucas owes the viewing public more than he's already provided in the way of entertainment is downright bizarre.

Even billionaires raise families and get old. So Lucas isn't the creative dynamo he was back in the day... does that make him "sad," or just human?

I realize it's dumb to get worked up over a post, but damn Jodet, that reads pretty damned harsh to me.

God knows Lucas is no god, but this movie fan will shed a tear when he dies, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

jodet beat me to my comparison, less the emperor than citizen kane.
the move from being the rebel to being not just the establishment, but the man who has the $ to do anything he wishes changed him.

of course, he was re-writing his own history since shortly after star wars came out. the "special editions" were no surprise.

i think people dont hate him as much as they do resent him for repressing the originals in favor of his revisons. if he had released the revisions, but left the originals commonly available, people would look on him far more kindly.

also i think he might have run into something gene roddenberry expreienced when he created ST:TNG. someone would ask g.r. how to paint the wall of a set, and he'd reply "i dunno.. blue would be nice." .. and the next thing he knew he was hearing "ok gene says this wall HAS to be blue.". everyone taking his word as gospel and not suggesting alternatives. i dont know if that happened to lucas, but it seems likely.

I share Carson's views of the current Clone Wars TV show. I also note that my six year old and all his school buddies, and the older kids at his school, seem to really like the show.

Say what you will about Lucas, he seems to have hit the bullseye with that project.

Huzz

What the heck did Lucas ever do to make anybody hate him other than give our arrogant, pessimistic, what have you done for me lately backsides some of the best moments we'll ever have in films. I mean honestly. Granted, I was no fan of Phantom Menace, but the next two films began to find their legs. Some folks are so wrapped up in hating things around here that...screw it. I'm gonna go build a model. Please, continue on the next topic to hate.

how dare those people break away from us. we demand that they come back or at the very least do everything we say. they dont like how we think. i hate them so much i think well call them americans......

....he was re-writing his own history since shortly after star wars came out. the "special editions" were no surprise.

You know, there a plenty of smart, decent, hard working old school Star Wars fans who like the Special Editions (Han shooting first notwithstanding). :)

i think people dont hate him as much as they do resent him for repressing the originals in favor of his revisons. if he had released the revisions, but left the originals commonly available, people would look on him far more kindly.

Aren't the original editions available? I know the original edition of the first film was released on DVD a few years back, but I don't recall if V and VI were released. :confused:

i think he might have run into something gene roddenberry expreienced when he created ST:TNG. someone would ask g.r. how to paint the wall of a set, and he'd reply "i dunno.. blue would be nice." .. and the next thing he knew he was hearing "ok gene says this wall HAS to be blue.". everyone taking his word as gospel and not suggesting alternatives. i dont know if that happened to lucas, but it seems likely.

There's no doubt the same thing happened to Lucas. The only difference is that Lucas seems to like having his word taken as gospel -- at least by the people who work for him. From an artistic standpoint this can often be a legitimate shortcomming, but not always. Let's face it, most artists want to have things their own way. Do you think Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, or Ridley Scott ever answered a question with "i dunno.. blue would be nice."?

Thing is, Lucas has made plenty of artistic calls I agree with. Clone Wars, as I mentioned earlier, is a swell series, and getting better with each episode. And despite what some of the more arrogant "fans" will tell you, Lucas still has a better handle on what makes Star Wars tick than anyone else, and by a long bloody shot.

What the heck did Lucas ever do to make anybody hate him other than give our arrogant, pessimistic, what have you done for me lately backsides some of the best moments we'll ever have in films.

Took the words out of my mouth, Jeff. The whole "George owes me... George betrayed me... George raped my childhood..." thing gives me the creeps, and says more about the insidious, hypocritical, vampiristic culture of Fanboyism than it does about Lucas.

Of course, none of this is new. Charlie Chaplin, Orson Welles, John Lennon and Woody Allen (the list goes on) all had their "fans" turn on them at one point or another, but at the end of the day their artistic legacy speaks for itself. If being hated by one's fans is good enough for those guys it's good enough for George Lucas. :)

Lucas did exactly what he set out to do which was to create a marketing empire. He's a victim of his own success in a way because he set out to make Star Wars for children, it became a monster phenomenon, some complexity found its way into The Empire Strikes Back (some of which Lucas wasn't crazy about himself), and people started expecting a little more brilliance than was necessary--something I think Lucas intentionally and publicly corrected by making Return of the Jedi what it was. I don't think anyone should have expected anything much more sophisticated than that afterwards but unfortunately the kids who grew up on Star Wars did indeed grow up and they somehow expected that Star Wars was going to grow and become more sophisticated with them.

I believe that the latest DVD versions of Episode 4-6 come with BOTH versions of the films. I will confirm that. While I'm not fan of Greedo shooting first, I think a lot of the little bits that were added help to expand the films in a way that we didn't get when they were released in the theatre.

There are some things I really did enjoy that were added in the Special Edition, such as the hanger scene with Biggs and Luke. It never really made sense in the original when Luke looked so upset when Biggs died. Other things that were better were the Millenium Falcon launch from Mos Eisley and X-wing/Y-wing launch from the rebel base. I also liked the changes to Cloud City as I felt that really opened up the feel of that part of the film.

If you never have had a chance, either read or listen to the audio book of the Phantom Menace by Terry Adams. I think that it tells the story much better than the movie did. Jar Jar is a useful (not annoying) character. Anakin isn't just a hyper little kid and you actually understand that his actions are affected by the force. There is added depth and extra story that should have been in the movie.

My feelings of the prequels are the complete opposite of most viewers; all three have absolutely atrocious, contrived plots which makes them super boring to watch after the initial eye-candy has worn out (first viewing)… that said, if I had to pick a least favourite, it’s got to be ROTS, because it was the most disappointing of the three for me (for way too many reasons to get into now). AOTC was terrible as well and doesn’t really even deserve to be scrutinized. Now don’t get me wrong- TPM was childish and vomit-inducing in its own right, HOWEVER, imo it had some ‘neat’ stuff in there; best lightsabre duel of the prequels, pod race, etc. Also, as much as young Anakin sucked, he was much easier to take than the horribly written character from the other two flicks.

If GL died today, I wouldn’t lament, at least not anymore than hearing about any other person dying, seeing as it’s a little sad when anyone dies.

Oh, and both Lucas and Spielberg need a swift kick to the nuts for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull- it’s like a damn Uwe Boll flick… in fact I disliked BloodRayne less- Oh, the humanity!

can someone explain the whole " Greedo shoots first vs Han shoots first " thing???

why is it soooooooooooo important that Han needs to shoot first?
does it really really matter! Han comes across as a smuggler with or without that scene.

seems petty to argue about it.

Took the words out of my mouth, Jeff. The whole "George owes me... George betrayed me... George raped my childhood..." thing gives me the creeps, and says more about the insidious, hypocritical, vampiristic culture of Fanboyism than it does about Lucas.



It's not just movies, Star Trek, and science fiction, there seems to be a real "think exactly like I do or you're obviously a heathen, commie, unpatriotic, etc" very vocal segment of the population that is becoming increasingly less tolerant of anybody that dares to think different than they do.

I think you are spot on with your opinions about Lucas, Rob, especially about the contributions of Marcia Lucas. Both the Star Wars and Indy franchises seemed to take a noticable nose dive when she left the picture.

And none of George Lucas movies have affected like the first Star Wars did. While some of it probably has to do with Lucas losing his "creative dynamo", I think it has a lot more to do with the fact I'm not fourteen anymore.

Lucas did exactly what he set out to do which was to create a marketing empire. He's a victim of his own success in a way because he set out to make Star Wars for children, it became a monster phenomenon, some complexity found its way into The Empire Strikes Back (some of which Lucas wasn't crazy about himself), and people started expecting a little more brilliance than was necessary--something I think Lucas intentionally and publicly corrected by making Return of the Jedi what it was. I don't think anyone should have expected anything much more sophisticated than that afterwards but unfortunately the kids who grew up on Star Wars did indeed grow up and they somehow expected that Star Wars was going to grow and become more sophisticated with them.

yes, agreed. that's probably part of my personal problem with the prequels.

can someone explain the whole " Greedo shoots first vs Han shoots first " thing???

why is it soooooooooooo important that Han needs to shoot first?
does it really really matter! Han comes across as a smuggler with or without that scene.

seems petty to argue about it.

Eau contrere, mon frere. Han shooting first was a brilliant character statement. Han's not supposed to be stupid enough - or nice enough - to let somebody else shoot first.

I don't think anyone should have expected anything much more sophisticated than that afterwards but unfortunately the kids who grew up on Star Wars did indeed grow up and they somehow expected that Star Wars was going to grow and become more sophisticated with them.

Yeah, well, as you say, Lucas and Lawrence Kasden set the bar pretty high with Empire in terms of striking a tonal balance between the “Boy Meets Girl and Saves the Galaxy” giddiness of the first film and the “Boy Gets Hand Chopped off by Genocidal Father” grimness of the sequel. In terms of appealing to a broad spectrum of the audience it’s a tough act to follow.

But your point about audience expectations touches on what I consider to be a fundamental fallacy built into the first three chapters of the saga.

Audiences will grant a filmmaker a lot of leeway if they if sense he’s not taking himself too seriously – especially if he happens to be spinning a really fun, exciting, uplifting story. Unfortunately the arch, stylized, Saturday Matinee schools of acting and dialogue that served Lucas so well in the Original Trilogy worked against him in the Prequels.

In Episodes I through III Lucas tried to tell what is at its core a very dark, depressing, and adult tale using the same super-kid-friendly storytelling tools he used back in the 70’s. You can’t blame Lucas for wanting to have it both ways, but the end result can be a little like listening to Schroader play a requiem mass on his little kiddy piano while Snoopy whistles along; interesting in an odd, tonally off-kilter sort of way, but ultimately not very satisfying.

Complain about the casting, dialogue, directing, or Jar-Jar all you want, but the real “villain” of the Prequels (from a creative standpoint) is the unfortunate combination of a tragedy that wants to be taken seriously and a style incapable of taking anything seriously.

It's not just movies, Star Trek, and science fiction, there seems to be a real "think exactly like I do or you're obviously a heathen, commie, unpatriotic, etc" very vocal segment of the population that is becoming increasingly less tolerant of anybody that dares to think different than they do.

Agreed, but to be fair, stubborn closed-minded old coots have always been around. Hell, some of my best friends are stubborn, closed-minded old coots. :)

As for the "think exactly like I do" thing, I think you'll find it cuts both ways (at least as far as Star Wars and Star Trek fans are concerned).

Agreed, but to be fair, stubborn closed-minded old coots have always been around. Hell, some of my best friends are stubborn, closed-minded old coots. :)

As for the "think exactly like I do" thing, I think you'll find it cuts both ways (at least as far as Star Wars and Star Trek fans are concerned).
I found that all over fandom, I think it comes from the societal mindset that people should conform(to what I have no idea). Not to different from the clicks of high school(like that made any sense).

can someone explain the whole " Greedo shoots first vs Han shoots first " thing???

why is it soooooooooooo important that Han needs to shoot first?
does it really really matter! Han comes across as a smuggler with or without that scene.

seems petty to argue about it.

I would be glad to explain. It has to do with writing. With plot. With a setup and a payoff. That bears repeating...a setup and a payoff.

The climax of SW is NOT when the Death Star blows up. We all know it's gonna blow up. The climax of the movie....THE PAY OFF...is when Vader says, 'I HAVE YOU NOW' and WTF??? Out of Nowhere that scoundral Han Solo comes to the rescue!! Remember the whole audience cheering? That was the pay off for the whole damn movie.

What's the setup? The setup is that Han is a cold-blooded, mercenary. Hell, if you get in his way he'll shoot you right thru the table top before you even draw your gun.

By changing that scene George Lucas showed his total and abysmal lack of writing skill. He killed the pay-off in his own story.

While we're talking about this, Hey, PEOPLE.... I didn't start the frakking 'how would you feel if Lucas died' thread. But when I say it wouldn't bother me that much, I'm a big meanie? I'm still sad that Michael Chrichton died. He was too young, and he never squandered his talent.

Speaking of that... you've just made the SW trilogy and can do ANYTHING YOU WANT. So you make...'Willow'? 'Howard the Duck'? The 'Young Indiana Jones' chronicles? Good God.

And one more thing. This is personal and I'd like to give GL a big F.U. for it. When this country was attacked and 3,000 people died, people had their throats slit, were burned alive, were forced to JUMP OFF A BUILDING, our President let the world know it was not 'business as usual'. He let people know if you harbored or helped terrorists, we would consider you a terrorist.

When Darth says, 'if you're not with me you're against me' and Obiwon screams, 'ONLY A SITH DEALS IN ABSOLUTES' that was ABSOLUTELY a politic poke thrown in there, and believe me, people noticed it, it was written up and discussed in the media.

So, GL has made billions of dollars CREATING A FANTASY ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CUT OFF PEOPLES HEADS AND LEGS AND ARMS WITH LASER-SWORDS, 'but only evil people deal in absolutes'. Well, cutting someone into little pieces seems pretty absolute to me. Which makes GL a hypocrite of STELLAR PROPORTIONS.

Oh, and I'm sure it was GL who came up with the brilliant, 'hop into this fridge and we'll escape the nuclear blast'. I could go on and on, but what's the point. I never said he 'raped my childhood', or any melodramatic nonsense. But hey, I'm not a fan. So shoot me. First, please. :)

When Darth says, 'if you're not with me you're against me' and Obiwon screams, 'ONLY A SITH DEALS IN ABSOLUTES' that was ABSOLUTELY a politic poke thrown in there, and believe me, people noticed it, it was written up and discussed in the media.

Thanks for reminding me.

I knew there was another reason I liked Lucas.

our President let the world know it was not 'business as usual'. He let people know if you harbored or helped terrorists, we would consider you a terrorist.





There's lots of folks more deserving of your outrage than George Lucas. Even with Howard the Duck.

It could have been worse. Lucas could have had a bunch of religious nuts from the planet, oh, let's call it Faudi Barabia, launch an attack on the World Trade Deathstar. But in a plot twist, Darth, The Emperor, and all their friends and family have been making a bunch of money dealing with the Faudi Barabians for years in the thriving, let's call it mitopetroleumchondrium, business. Darth ingeniously decides to attack another group of nuts on the planet, let's call it Miraq, even though they had nothing to do with the attack, in one move he saves his Faudi business partners from retribution and embarassment and satisfies the rank & file troopers need for revenge. The Emperor convinces the empire it's all neccessary because only he can keep them safe, especially since he has proof positive that Miraq has bunch of Deathstars and star destroyers laying around and is just itching to use them. Then to celebrate, Darth goes womp rat hunting and accidently shoots his lawyer in the face.

On second thought, it's probably all too farfetched to be believable.

Yeah, well, as you say, Lucas and Lawrence Kasden set the bar pretty high with Empire in terms of striking a tonal balance between the “Boy Meets Girl and Saves the Galaxy” giddiness of the first film and the “Boy Gets Hand Chopped off by Genocidal Father” grimness of the sequel. In terms of appealing to a broad spectrum of the audience it’s a tough act to follow.

But your point about audience expectations touches on what I consider to be a fundamental fallacy built into the first three chapters of the saga.

Audiences will grant a filmmaker a lot of leeway if they if sense he’s not taking himself too seriously – especially if he happens to be spinning a really fun, exciting, uplifting story. Unfortunately the arch, stylized, Saturday Matinee schools of acting and dialogue that served Lucas so well in the Original Trilogy worked against him in the Prequels.

In Episodes I through III Lucas tried to tell what is at its core a very dark, depressing, and adult tale using the same super-kid-friendly storytelling tools he used back in the 70’s. You can’t blame Lucas for wanting to have it both ways, but the end result can be a little like listening to Schroader play a requiem mass on his little kiddy piano while Snoopy whistles along; interesting in an odd, tonally off-kilter sort of way, but ultimately not very satisfying.

Complain about the casting, dialogue, directing, or Jar-Jar all you want, but the real “villain” of the Prequels (from a creative standpoint) is the unfortunate combination of a tragedy that wants to be taken seriously and a style incapable of taking anything seriously.

There've been a lot of very savvy analyses in this thread, and this was one of the most spot-on. You guys are putting thoughts that I couldn't quite figure out how to express into nice sharp focus for me.

And let me save the mods the trouble by being the first to say, let's knock off the politics. :)

Let's not forget that Michael Crichton made Twister--that's as bad as all three prequels rolled into one.

I agree with your analysis Rob but I still think that is all laid down in Return of the Jedi, where there's a potentially moving story about redemption and the futility of vengeance, but it's undercut by Ewoks, horrendous plotting and Lucas' refusal to allow any genuine drama in there--all the foreshadowing designed to lay the groundwork for Han Solo dying in the final Death Star battle for instance, but Lucas didn't want to deprive himself of a potential action figure license down the line so Solo's character essentially has no function in Jedi other than being the MacGuffin in the first third of the movie.

I do appreciate some of the politics in Sith, even though most of it is just too blunt and obvious. But the idea of the Emperor physically tearing apart the Senate in his battle with Yoda is a nice one.

On last week's episode of Lost, while our main cast has been thrown bak in time to 1977, Hurley is passing the time by rewriting the script for Empire and Jedi so he can send them to Lucas before before HE writes them. "I'm leaving out Ewoks. Dude, nobody needs Ewoks."

:lol:

On last week's episode of Lost, while our main cast has been thrown bak in time to 1977, Hurley is passing the time by rewriting the script for Empire and Jedi so he can send them to Lucas before before HE writes them. "I'm leaving out Ewoks. Dude, nobody needs Ewoks."

:lol:

That was hilarious. This season of Lost has been really strong, it might even be their best imho.