I really do not enjoy doing this ,but this one really has me #!!!!#.

AS alot of you know I purchased a track and we are setting a store up in Long Beach WA. I found a track for sale here on HT. I bought the track from a person in Fremont Indiana. He asked $995.00 plus $200.00 for shipping and insurance . I paid it and assumed I was dealing with a good person. It took a couple of weeks ,but I recieved it . But what I rec'd was two boxes poorly packed and the result was broken track and a bunch of pieces on the bottom of the box. I contacted this person and he said he paid the insurance and there would be no problem .Well now it's been some time now and since he says UPS will not pay the insurance ( because the packing was not good )he will have to purchase the track himself to make things right. Well after alot of e-mails and dodging by him and excuses now he does not answer the e-mails and phone messages I guess I'm stuck with $1200.00 worth of garbage !!. What is it with people who put on this big front that are so good and pure that they screw people over and feel good about it . I mean if I sold someone something especially of this size and it's his fault like this is I would make good on it or refund thier money. He states in all his e-mails he is going to pay for new track and then I call the company and they say yeah he ordered the track ,but has not sent money . He also stated in his e-mail that he ordered the track and said when I would be recieving it and then does not pay for it . and then signs all his BS e-mails to god bless me .

Whats my purpose for this post is basicly is my line of thought wrong here .He feels if he pays for the broken track he will not make much on the track and we should both share in on the loss. But I can't see where he's loss anything he has $1200.00 of my money I have a track I can not use and he says wel just setup a smaller track and when you get or if I get the broken pieces I can say they have a bigger and faster track .Boy what a deal .If I knew that I would have paid more for it ....I'm not laughing . I'm even considering legal action . I was expecting someone to be honorable and professional.I guess I was wrong and how would you feel if this happened to you? And hey guys the track is not ready for the opening . I personally do not like airing my dirty laundry here ,but I feel I should tell you my experience so you don't get from this person like I did.

GRRRRRRRRRRR!!! GO AHEAD SUE HIS *** OFF!!!!

Wes

funny thing the issue is for $349 and some cents for the replacement track .

Well opinions are like a dime a dozen but here goes.
When you considered buying the item did you check his feedback here?
If so did you contact any of the people who delt with him to get their opinion?
I sell here all the time, I have had a few problems but I value my reputation so I do my best to make it right. If the person values theirs they should do the same.
Airing the laundry is not a problem with me, it is a good thing to get the word out on bad sellers so nobody gets the same stiff deal you got.
If they have been given ample time to make corrections take it to the next level. I would contact ups and have them pay on the insurance. There is no way for them to prove the packing was insufficient, it must have been a handling problem. Get the info on the insurance and chase ups. You may still need to deal with the seller to get it straight so dont burn the bridge just yet. Also did you use a credit card or paypal? it is good to drag the big dog into it and let them fight it for you. Well there it is my opinion.....

Would this be the track?

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=242405

Hutt used to be in retail. Hutt used to sell/ship 1:43 resin and white metal kits and models. Hutt has questions.

1) Did the UPS driver give you an offer of refusing to accept the parcels?

2) Do you have pictures of the parcels to show how the track was packed?

3) Do you have photos of the broken sections of track?

4) Were you contacted by UPS to review the packaging for an insurance claim investigation? In other words, do you even know if UPS has been contacted about the damage?

5) Have you been offered any proof that the shipment was actually insured by UPS?

6) How did you pay for the track?

IMHO, how you can procede depends on how these questions are answered.

Would this be the track?

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=242405

in my effort to keep names out of this ,but you are very hot on your choice of tracks . Is there something you know about this ?

Hutt used to be in retail. Hutt used to sell/ship 1:43 resin and white metal kits and models. Hutt has questions.

1) Did the UPS driver give you an offer of refusing to accept the parcels?
NO
2) Do you have pictures of the parcels to show how the track was packed?
YES
3) Do you have photos of the broken sections of track?
YES
4) Were you contacted by UPS to review the packaging for an insurance claim investigation? In other words, do you even know if UPS has been contacted about the damage? YES, they came to my place of business and inspected broken track and package they came in .

5) Have you been offered any proof that the shipment was actually insured by UPS? WELL THE FACT THEY CAME HERE TO INSPECT TELLS ME HE PURCHASED INSURANCE . THE PROBLEM WAS THERE WAS MORE DUCT TAPE THEN CARDBOARD.

6) How did you pay for the track?HE WOULD ONLY TAKE A CASHIER BANK CHECK. GUESS HE DIDN'T TRUST ME

IMHO, how you can procede depends on how these questions are answered.

AT THIS POINT i AM ONLY TRYING TO GET WHAT I PAID FOR NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS

Thanks for your answers. It must be pretty painful to think about this deal now. Let's go through the legal facts.

1) UPS refused to pay the claim based on the poor quality of paking the seller used to prepare the two parcels. Thus, the seller did not provide reasonable protection of your shipment.

2) UPS came to inspect the shipment. This shows that you paid for insurance in the $200 charged for shipping and handling. So, the seller charged you for insurance but did not go to the reasonable effort required to meet the requirements of the insurance.

3) You sent payment through the United States Postal Service. The seller has defrauded you accross state lines.

I see some low cost possibilities.

Fremont is in Steuben County, Indiana. The county seat is Angola Indiana. Thus, Angola is where the offices of county government would be. (Hutt grew up in Indiana. My parents were married in Angola.) Let's see, Angola has a city website.

http://www.mytown.com/towns/index.php?gt=37

I supose one could just copy the whole thread and post it in the web site. But that would just embarass the owners of a business in the next town, Fremont. Maybe a better choice would be Angola's chamber of comerce.

http://www.angolachamber.org/

OF course, we could look directly at Fremont. Here's the city's web page.

http://www.townoffremont.org/

Police Chief Ed Johnson looks like a pretty good guy. I can't see him being really happy that somebody in his was fleecing outsiders and giving the town a bad reputation. May Ed would be willing to go talk to the seller and convince him to set matters right. That would just take a call, email or REGISTERED LETTER.

http://www.townoffremont.org/police.html

OOOOWWW lookie here. Fremont has its own chamber of commerce. That is a very good sign that they pride themselves in the good behaivor of thier stalwart business owners.

http://www.fremontchamber.org/

Google is just so much fun. I reckon the good folks at the CoC would really like to see matters put right. Maybe A&M Raceway is a member of the CoC...

So, lets' start with the chamber of commerce. If that don't go, try chief Ed. All the legal facts are on your side.

This is Hobby Talk and we look after or own.

I can not tell you how grateful I am for your time and effort you have put into this . I am beside myself .I can not thank you enough for caring and feeling my pain . I will pursue these avenues and let me get back to you on the results.

Hope you get it worked out, Bruce. Thats total B.S. to take someones money, drop the ball on getting it to them for what they ordered and then give them the runaround. Its not like we're talking about a $20 car here, thats a chunk of change ANYONE would miss.

I am sorry you have had these problems,I almost bought the track.It amazes me how some people pack a shipment I once bought a set of motorcycle pipes that the guy wrapped in a single piece of cardboard,and shipped ups.He returned my money after I shipped them back but I had to pay the $50 shipping both ways.

I know I was hoping I'd have this setup and running so we could setup the date for the big NW Pow Wow. But who knows we may just have to drive in a circle . I was just sitting here talking with my wife and she said he may have pocketed the $349+ from UPS . Wouldn't surprize me from what I've seen so far . I really hope know one else get's it from this guy the way I did .

I thought the insurance was for your protection. Can't you file a freight claim with the shipper? You are the one involved. That is what we did when I was working at a place where we were receiving freight. We would file the claim. The shipper should have refused to ship it if it wasn't packaged properly. They damaged it. You have to stay on them though to get your money..and if you want to settle for 300 some odd dollars they ought to jump on that.

UPS policy is the shipper takes responsibility for the packing unless UPS does the packing. If there is damage, the first thing UPS assesses is if the parcel was properly packed. UPS has guidelines for such things.

Let's look at two examples. First, I pack track in tight bundles, wrap the bunndles in bubble wrap and put 2 to 4 inches of peanuts all around the contents. The parcel arrives with one corner crushed and the track in the crushed area is damaged. UPS says, "my bad" and pays the insurance claim. Second, I put track in a box loose with minimal cushioning material. The box shows up looking fine but the track inside is damaged from moving about within the box. UPS says "take packing 101 for dummies" and refuses the claim.

You can not expect the carrier to be responsible for poor packing. Poor packing may not be noticeable unless they open the parcel. Do you want UPS to open every parcel they get? Of course not. The system relies on the shipper doing the right thing. We TRUST the shipper to DO THE RIGHT THING.

Don't blame UPS (who I do not work for, by the way). Keep the blame focused where it belongs - on the guy who sold the track, didn't pack it right, and won't man up to his error.

:cry:Hello, To all just to let you know I am here and I well take care of this and the person who payed the money for this track will be happy and you guys will all know that it was done

Now I do say sorry to the Hobbytalk family and to MR.G WHO HAS PAYED FOR THE TRACK AND HAS NOT GOT WHAT HE PAYED FOR. I HAVE E-MAIL HIM AND I AM ON THE PROBLEM. AND I WILL NOT GO IN TO THAT E-MAIL, But please belive that i was not out to hurt any one. LIFE makes a TWist AND U MUST SHAKE IT OFF AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT.I ASK That THOSE THAT GAVE YOUR THOUHTS ON THESE TO FORGIVE ME AND MY BAD PACKAGEING and keep up the good on this forum for we all are in the best hobby in the world.

Moe

:cry:Hello, To all just to let you know I am here and I well take care of this and the person who payed the money for this track will be happy and you guys will all know that it was done

Now I do say sorry to the Hobbytalk family and to MR.G WHO HAS PAYED FOR THE TRACK AND HAS NOT GOT WHAT HE PAYED FOR. I HAVE E-MAIL HIM AND I AM ON THE PROBLEM. AND I WILL NOT GO IN TO THAT E-MAIL, But please belive that i was not out to hurt any one. LIFE makes a TWist AND U MUST SHAKE IT OFF AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT.I ASK That THOSE THAT GAVE YOUR THOUHTS ON THESE TO FORGIVE ME AND MY BAD PACKAGEING and keep up the good on this forum for we all are in the best hobby in the world.

Moe


Way to man up! Glad to see someone who takes responsibillity in this world Still..

Fantastic.

I hope once and for all this will stop people posting, when somebody else has a deal go sour, that these sorts of disputes should be kept off the forums and boards.

Moe may have manned up anyway, but this thead has made sure of it and very likely hastened the process.

I disagree Montoya1,

I think we as hobbiests need some bite in transactions gone bad. Having the oportunity to use H T as a tool for persuassion is a blessing the way I see it.

I do think maybe we should have a seperate catagory for such complaints just to keep the others open. If not, I don't have a problem seeing them here in this column.

Anthing to keep all of us honest is a good thing I say. Besides, why should we depend on EBAY for selling or trading ? They've gotten too big themselves.

I really thnik that if nobody knew who the seller was, that the buyer here would have still been on the gooie end on the stick.

Gonzo

I disagree Montoya1,

I think we as hobbiests need some bite in transactions gone bad. Having the oportunity to use H T as a tool for persuassion is a blessing the way I see it.

I do think maybe we should have a seperate catagory for such complaints just to keep the others open. If not, I don't have a problem seeing them here in this column.

Anthing to keep all of us honest is a good thing I say. Besides, why should we depend on EBAY for selling or trading ? They've gotten too big themselves.

I really thnik that if nobody knew who the seller was, that the buyer here would have still been on the gooie end on the stick.

Gonzo

Agreed!

Guys, you need to read more carefully what I said.

I got it now, but your wording is confusing.

I agree with these 3 points:

1: Bruce posting his problem and making it public... he didn't bring any names into it,
a very classy thing to do, considering how upset he was.

2: Moe manning up and going public with his promise to make things right, also a classy thing to do.

3: The right of any hobbyist to air their grievances here. No one should be expected to be polite when they feel like they're being ripped off. If they are polite, good for them ... but the feeling of getting ripped off can drive people into a rage... and some understanding of their sitation should be considered before passing judgement on them. Money is money is money... and it doesn't grow on trees. We all work hard for it.

and that's my 2 cents... for what it's worth.

I got it now, but your wording is confusing.

Sorry. What I meant was that the outcome this thread looks like producing for Bad Dawg, should once and for all silence those who are against people using the forums to expose bad practices.

I appreciate and respect Moe coming on HT and owning up to his responsibility to make good on the broken track and original promises. He has e-mailed and explained. With that said I hope the matter will be resolved . I appreciate the support and opinions . As much as I did not want to bring this type of subject to the forum I felt because the transaction originated here the integrity of the forum should be protected. If things go as promised I will come back and share the results with the group .

:thumbsup:I HAVE GOT TO REASON WHY Maxtrack did not get the money on new track
but i will not go in to that. I stand alone on that and say that faith in the personal family system was shot in the arm.

GREAT news is that i have spoken to Dave @ Max track and the new track sec are to be made ASap and they will be payed for. I am over nighting the money and he should be payed by Friday and he can get the track done asap for Bruce.:thumbsup:

I appreciate and respect Moe coming on HT and owning up to his responsibility to make good on the broken track and original promises. He has e-mailed and explained. With that said I hope the matter will be resolved . I appreciate the support and opinions . As much as I did not want to bring this type of subject to the forum I felt because the transaction originated here the integrity of the forum should be protected. If things go as promised I will come back and share the results with the group .

Bruce you did the right thing and belive it was not the chioce u wished to make please forgive me for not staying on this But i was sure that you were took care of.:)

Kudos!

Posted, manned up, and with any luck solved! What's the problem?

As we have advertising of various sorts it only seems fair to have consumer reporting.

all's well that ends well.... right?

Moe is personal friend of mine and I am confident that he will do the right thing.

I have no idea what the exact circumstances are but I do know that Moe is a man of integrity and he will not walk away from any situation.

I am glad matters are working out. I don’t want anyone to have any negative impressions regarding Moe. He is a gentleman and has the best interest of the hobby in his heart.

Moe, you have many friends and if you need anything just let me know.

Sincerely,
John Miller

Bruce,

Sounds like all the rocky roads are smoothing out hopefully. :thumbsup:

WOW! I just want to go West and race....yeah baby! :hat: Still have a few days of vacation left and Ginger has given me the O.K. to a West Coast slot fest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't wait...oh boy!

Bob...let me know when so, I can get plane tickets...zilla

I hope once and for all this will stop people posting, when somebody else has a deal go sour, that these sorts of disputes should be kept off the forums and boards.

I respectfully disagree under almost all circumstances, including this one. I can handle my own problems, on my own, and see no value whatsoever in dragging other people into my personal disputes.

If someone is committing a fraudulent activity that affects other people on the board and is systemic, and after I have contacted the authorities who are able to do something about it, then I would feel obliged to post a warning to others.

Too often in these personal disputes there is a rush to judgment and a supposition of fraud right off the bat, as was done in this thread with talk about contacting authorities and such with the closet lawyers and armchair prosecutors weighing in, and this does little other than to set the tone for a bad outcome in most cases, even though it provides morbid entertainment opportunities for board readers. The fact that a personal, one on one dispute is apparently resolved through public embarrassment and/or humiliation should in no way establish it as a precedent or validate it as a preferred course of action in these sorts of disputes. This is a classic case of the end not justifying the mean.

Just to make it perfectly clear, respectful disagreement means that I respect your right for you to do things the way you choose to do them. You have to decide for yourself what you think is right and wrong and the way you want to conduct yourself. The same is true the other way around, so I hope people will feel empowered to keep posting,or throwing the warning flag, when they see something being dragged into a public forum, and subjected to the ensuing mob mentality, that may be better solved in a private way.

It would appear at least possible that Bruce has only got traction on a satisfactory outcome as a direct result of this thread.

There may have been other ways and means, but this one worked.

Both the UPS and the USPS have been able to damage
items of mine that I packed quite well before shipping.
Getting the shipping insurance money out of them has
been a futile task also.At International Paper,where I
work,I have had to repair many items that were shipped
in damaged because my boss said it was just too much
of a hassle to deal with the shippers.

my brother works for UPS, I will never use them to ship, as he has told me, "if it is marked fragile all over it, i can guarentee it will get thrown kicked or bashed by most of the drivers", and "never use moniter or tv boxes to pack, they get thrown across the truck with a laugh too".

my brother works for UPS, I will never use them to ship, as he has told me, "if it is marked fragile all over it, i can guarentee it will get thrown kicked or bashed by most of the drivers", and "never use moniter or tv boxes to pack, they get thrown across the truck with a laugh too".

A close friend of mine works for UPS and he has told me the same thing.

Dave

Don't think it's strictly a feature of UPS either. USPS has mangled more boxes for me than anyone. I did 5 years as an Airborne Express driver when I was going to College.

"Fragile" is French for "broken".

gee, it sounds like UPS guys are classless jerks in need of a beat down

Pack for survival!

I cant complain about UPS, just received yesterday a 24 inch wide screen monitor an not even a small dent in the box it was sent in which stated samsung monitor on it, Maybe I was just lucky

Pack for survival!


Bill is not kidding.
Obviously, he has some kind of experience with this.
Some years back, to cast for the HOHT roadster builds, Bill sent to me the complete and beautiful original roadster that he had filled the hood-sides on and I had chided him on his packing job. The car was wrapped in several blue fluffy shop towels (taped), sealed inside a plastic bag and wrapped in bubble-wrap (two sizes and taped into a softball size) and set into a box that measured 5x5x5. It wunt goin' nowhere! Bill was protecting his car. Plain and simple.

On another note, I have received cars that were packed so tightly that they had actually been broken/crushed without any outward damage to the box.
Go figure.:rolleyes:

Joez is right, I have considerable formal training on the matter but that's a story for another day. Lets just say that the vast majority of freight handlers use all the delicacy of a tomb robber.

The Egyptians went to great expense to package things up properly for the after life...and look what happened to their carp!

With these two concepts in mind all shipments from Model Murdering are entombed within a small planetoid.

Note to self: Ship Joez next package in stone pyramid.

It would appear at least possible that Bruce has only got traction on a satisfactory outcome as a direct result of this thread.

There may have been other ways and means, but this one worked.

:rolleyes:You stand in the dark, I at no time told Bruce that i was not going to take care of the bad that ups or my bad packageing did, THIS ONE DID NOT WORK .;) I made it work

I sent the money to MAX Trax 3weeks ago and was not in the loop that they did not get the money.

THIS THREAD DID NOT MAKE ME OR ANYONE GET THIS FIX
Who makes this right for Bruce MOE,DID ALL OF you SEE THIS,:thumbsup: MOE

We all sent back and thing the worst, call the law, get the towns people in this Do this, do that

Did someone e-mail me on this forum and say MOE WHATS THE DEAL LETS HELP YOU AND Bruce fix this were do you stand on the matter. KNOW THE PEOPLE HERE SAID FOR Bruce to do this and that . AND NOW SO U all can say looks like it got done BECAUSE we said to do this (HORSE SHIt)

I DO WHAT I SAY AND I MEAN WHAT I SAY

:wave:News flash the new track has been payed for NOW WE PUT THIS IN THE HANDS OF Maxtrax to get Bruce the track. so go and think what u wish for i know the truth and it shall set me FREE OF THE PAIN THAT U THINK I WAS TRY TO CAUSE Mr. Bruce. THE END

Both the UPS and the USPS have been able to damage
items of mine that I packed quite well before shipping.
Getting the shipping insurance money out of them has
been a futile task also.At International Paper,where I
work,I have had to repair many items that were shipped
in damaged because my boss said it was just too much
of a hassle to deal with the shippers.

THANK YOU FOR NOT THING THE WORST:thumbsup:

Moe is personal friend of mine and I am confident that he will do the right thing.

I have no idea what the exact circumstances are but I do know that Moe is a man of integrity and he will not walk away from any situation.

I am glad matters are working out. I don’t want anyone to have any negative impressions regarding Moe. He is a gentleman and has the best interest of the hobby in his heart.

Moe, you have many friends and if you need anything just let me know.

Sincerely,
John Miller

Thank You- those that know a Man have faith in the man and not set in the seat of judgement on what to with the man For God almightly shall judge :thumbsup:

Item sold on 1/27.

Posting made Tuesday, 3/31.

Issue resolved yesterday, 4/1.

You have to admit that it sure looks like the postings facilitated the resolution of the issue unless Bruce was not truthful about calls and emails going unanswered. Is that the case? I do not think so.

:cool:GRRRRRRRRRRR!!! GO AHEAD SUE HIS *** OFF!!!!

Wes DEAL DONE

I choose after no satisfaction of a return e-mail or phone call I had no choice but to go this route . We have feedback here for transactions done here so what's the difference whether I do it there or in a general subject forum where others have done it ? I appreciate those who spoke thier opinion and also those now who are friends with the other party to voice thiers. When it's all said and done I just want what I paid for nothing more or nothing less just like anyone else would want .

Would this be the track?

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=242405
DEAL DONE

I choose after no satisfaction of a return e-mail or phone call I had no choice but to go this route . We have feedback here for transactions done here so what's the difference whether I do it there or in a general subject forum where others have done it ? I appreciate those who spoke thier opinion and also those now who are friends with the other party to voice thiers. When it's all said and done I just want what I paid for nothing more or nothing less just like anyone else would want .
BRUCE I SAY THANK YOU BECAUSE YOU DID belive that i was a man of my word and AS I got in to family things I just drop the ball But now i can say we got thur this :thumbsup: