FYI . . I recently acquired a used motor that I had planned to resale. Before resellling, I sent it to Willmann Racing Products to be rebuilt to insure I would be sellling a good product. When Mike inspected the motor he found that it was an illegal motor. The crank case had been port matched to the cylinder head and there were two parts that were also installed on the motor - 1) a flywheel cover, 2) a pull crank. These two parts were determined to be illegal Chung Yang parts. QSAC rules state "Engine replacement parts other than those supplied by the original engine manufacturer will be considered as not-legal parts".

This is not the first motor that Mike has found with Chung Yang parts. Beware when buying used parts/equipment to buy Zenoah parts. If you are not sure, contact Randy Brown, QSAC tech official. Randy's contact information can be found at qsac.org. Don't be disqualified for illegal parts.

Bob Williams 1/4 Scale Racing
bwqsr@yahoo.com

FYI . . I recently acquired a used motor that I had planned to resale. Before resellling, I sent it to Willmann Racing Products to be rebuilt to insure I would be sellling a good product. When Mike inspected the motor he found that it was an illegal motor. The crank case had been port matched to the cylinder head and there were two parts that were also installed on the motor - 1) a flywheel cover, 2) a pull crank. These two parts were determined to be illegal Chung Yang parts. QSAC rules state "Engine replacement parts other than those supplied by the original engine manufacturer will be considered as not-legal parts".

This is not the first motor that Mike has found with Chung Yang parts. Beware when buying used parts/equipment to buy Zenoah parts. If you are not sure, contact Randy Brown, QSAC tech official. Randy's contact information can be found at qsac.org. Don't be disqualified for illegal parts.

Bob Williams 1/4 Scale Racing
bwqsr@yahoo.com


aside from the non original zenoha parts, whats disturbing is the port matching to the cylinder head. where did you get it and did they claim it to be QSAC legal? This is good advice for anyone new out there. have someone like Mike check a motor if your not certain its legal. don't want your reputation tarnished.

It might be helpful in the future if these found to be illegal engines by rebuilders get a X stamped next to the serial number. That way if they do find their way into QSAC competition, it will be obvious it is not legal. Or, if somone is asked to modify a RC230, stamp an X on it too.

I am not sure how to handle this when i receive a illegal motor. My normal procedure is to consult with the customer on the illegal part, to inform him of QSAC rules, ask if he will be running under the QSAC banner or not, and then the customer must decide if he wants the parts replace. If not, then am i held responsible of the motor when it gets shipped out and then fails any tech inspection?

I could put a mark on the motor however, those parts could get replace to rid of that mark.

I am troubled about what i have seen coming though the last 3 months or so. All my customer have bought used cars with the motors and they are concern that they are not labeled as a cheeter.

I have a solution on this issue but i like to hear from the QSAC chairs or tech directors on there thoughts before i make any marks on the motors whether legal or not.

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

I don't dout there are illegal motors out there and it does not take a engine builder to find one the best thing to do is if your not familer with the motors find a local racer at your track to help you go threw it in the end the racer is responsible for it being legal if it gets tore down or not

Mike, I agree that parts can be replaced later, but if the jug and crank case have been modified in any manner, a mark placed on them (RC230's) signifying this would surely help QSAC and local tracks. :thumbsup:I am not sure how to handle this when i receive a illegal motor. My normal procedure is to consult with the customer on the illegal part, to inform him of QSAC rules, ask if he will be running under the QSAC banner or not, and then the customer must decide if he wants the parts replace. If not, then am i held responsible of the motor when it gets shipped out and then fails any tech inspection?

I could put a mark on the motor however, those parts could get replace to rid of that mark.

I am troubled about what i have seen coming though the last 3 months or so. All my customer have bought used cars with the motors and they are concern that they are not labeled as a cheeter.

I have a solution on this issue but i like to hear from the QSAC chairs or tech directors on there thoughts before i make any marks on the motors whether legal or not.

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

I personally feel it is the owners responsibility for it being legal. Not by a outside source. That is why there is Tech. If a person is not sure,Im sure it can be checked at any local race.
Having it marked by a outside source could cause problems for all parties involved.

Tim: I agree however, before i do that i will need the blessing from the QSAC gods:thumbsup:

I will do whatever the membership needs to resolve this issue. Just let me know.

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

What's missing in this picture?


In 2006, a racer ran a used engine he inherited and it cost him a NCS Truck win. Yeah, he was embarrassed but more ticked with himself for not checking the engine in the first place.

Good Point Slider.

One finale note here is that these motor slid though local inspections and NOT any NCS Races.

Good job from tech officials

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

I just can't believe people cheat in the first place. This is supposed to be for fun first & foremost!! I'm dumb founded by this. I never cheated a day in my life & I seem to do alright. This is like steroids in baseball, absolutely ridiculous, I mean its baseball for crying out loud.

Just my .02 JAMMIN :thumbsup:

Paul, my thoughts are to mark any illegal engine (ported, shaved, polished...ect). Example: The engine in question here was sent by Bob to verify it being legal. It was found to be ported. If Mike stamps the engine case in some manner, if it ever enters QSAC racing, it will be detected early.

Now if it only has the wrong internal parts, these can and should be replaced by OEM parts. No reason to mark this type of build.:thumbsup:

Installing the chung Yang parts was cheaper then Zenaoh parts. I believe it was not because they want to cheat but to buy cheaper parts and not reading the rule book clearly. Clearly no preformance gain as i see it.

Match porting! Now that is cheating

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

I agree, this is why I never buy used engines. The first car I bought had the G2D-70 engine which was already outdated. I replaced it soon after with a new RC230!:thumbsup:I just can't believe people cheat in the first place. This is supposed to be for fun first & foremost!! I'm dumb founded by this. I never cheated a day in my life & I seem to do alright. This is like steroids in baseball, absolutely ridiculous, I mean its baseball for crying out loud.

Just my .02 JAMMIN :thumbsup:

ok i know this has nothing to do with cheating but what are the differences in the g270d older engine and the rc 230 which is what is used now

ok i know this has nothing to do with cheating but what are the differences in the g270d older engine and the rc 230 which is what is used now

About 7 tenths.. LOL......Less HP.


The 270 had a smaller piston and two rings (I think on the first ones). 4 bolt cylinder. It had a bigger spark plug....The bottom end is not the same.

G2D70
Bore32mmStroke28mmDisplacement22.5ccMax. output - PS Net: 1.95 (1.41 kw)
Gross: 2.05 (1.51 kw)Max. torque Kg-mNet: 0.15 (1.42)




G230RC/1/2/3
Bore32mmStroke28mmDisplacement22.5ccMax. output - PS Net: 2.50 (1.84) ps (kw)
Gross: 2.85 (2.10) ps (kw)Max. torque Kg-mNet: 0.160 kg-m

ok i know this has nothing to do with cheating but what are the differences in the g270d older engine and the rc 230 which is what is used now

Just a Reminder...

in 1/4 scale drag racing for the Open class their are/were no motor rules...

Run what ya Brung......Probably alot of illegal to Qsac Motors out there from this type of Racing..

Its your responsibility to be legal.

1/4 scale Drag racing was pretty popular for awhile, not sure if anyone is running them anymore though

my problem is that im so new to this class and unfamiliar with the motors i wouldnt know if i was legal or not im just going off what the other guys are telln me at the track im sure ill figure it out eventually like the other classe i run all i know is that the motor will fit on my weedeater lol.

If you have a used engine, send it to Willmann to have them go thru it completely. This will ease your mind as to being legal or not. It will also give you a fresh motor with no worries to start the season.:thumbsup:my problem is that im so new to this class and unfamiliar with the motors i wouldnt know if i was legal or not im just going off what the other guys are telln me at the track im sure ill figure it out eventually like the other classe i run all i know is that the motor will fit on my weedeater lol.

You know what would be cool, is if someone or a group of people would put together a set of photos (of good quality) on tearing an engine down and put it all in a document for the QSAC website. I could then post what a legal engin is supposed to look like and this could also server as a "how to book" for those of us that do not have the knowlege and experiance of tearing one down.

As far as the gages and testing the compression, stroke, and timing, I would say leave that to the pros like Willman or others in the business of rebuilding. But if newbees and some of us non-wrenchers want to have a reference to replace a seal or bearing or ring, this would be a great way to get that experiance and referance material.

With all that online and available, you would not have to worry to much about having to mark someones engine or labeling them as cheater engines. This way if you wanted to run at your local track with a non-QSAC legal engine and your local club is fine with it, no problem. At an NCS, everyone knows the rules so I don't see it as being an issue (yet).



Just a thought

i like that thought

You never know what you are buying when you buy used cars. If I bought a used car the first thing I would put on it is a new Engine and Carb. The rest of the car is easy to check. There are a few of us out here that will help you guys if you have any questions. I found two engines wrong a few weeks ago. The thing that shocked me was he wanted me to check the engines before we started racing this year. Then I knew he didn't know the engines were Illegal. He had a guy at a go kart shop build the engines and yes we know how the kart racing is, All or nothing.

Mike, I would like to say thanks for the great service you provide for the guys that need your help. (keep up the good work) I would like to see a sealed engine one day down the road. Have one guy like yourself build and seal up engines so when we are tearing engines down at QSAC races we know that the engine is right. (would save a lot of time.) If we get one thats not sealed we check it and tear it down.
Just my 2 cents worth.

QSAC ENGINE RULE
1. Engine Zenoah G2D-70 (both two-ring and single-ring versions), and the Zenoah G23RC/G230RC (versions A & B) are allowed.
2. Engines must be as manufactured, no mixing of components between versions or up-rated -44, 57 -cylinder 1148-12111 (to the 2HP version) may be used. Example: You cannot use a two-ring piston with a single-ring cylinder or a single-ring piston with a double-ring cylinder. The G-23RC / G230RC (versions A & B) have interchangeable parts. Each version will have its own set of specifications and will be checked accordingly. Example: Version A engine with a version B cylinder will be teched as a version B engine. If your engine has version B parts it will be teched as a version B engine. If you have any questions please contact the National Tech Director Randy Brown @ (517) 641-4452.

ENGINE TECHNICAL INSPECTION
The QSAC engine rules are written to mean absolutely no engine modification is permitted and includes specifically that the addition or removal of material is not allowed. The rule as written and currently enforced is one of the foundation blocks of QSAC and Quarter Scale Racing. The publication of this procedure is meant as a method for contestants to check their own engines for compliance to the rules. It is not meant as a guide for ―blueprinting‖ an engine within the parame-ters. An engine found to be altered, even though it may measure legal, will be disqualified and the altered parts will be confiscated and de-stroyed.
To perform the procedure, a 2.00 inch stroke dial indicator and a spark plug hole adaptor will be needed. The carburetors, carburetor mount-ing block, exhaust system, and flywheel cover must be removed. All the measurements are based on the downward stroke of the piston from the top dead center as the flywheel is rotated counter-clockwise when viewed from the flywheel end of the engine. There are five measurements that, performed as instructed below, will determine:
1. Intake Port Timing - Full Open
2. Intake Port Timing - Start Open
3. Intake Port Timing - Maximum Port Window Size (height)
4. Exhaust Port Timing - Start Open
5. Crankshaft Stroke


Look at page 25 in the 2009 QSAC RULE BOOK. It gives you each different type of engine specs.

JBell -- ask and you shall receive.

http://www.zenoah.net/products/hobby/download/G230RC_G260RC_704.pdf

JBell -- ask and you shall receive.

http://www.zenoah.net/products/hobby/download/G230RC_G260RC_704.pdf

Not what I was looking for. I was thinking of someone taking the time to actualy take a digital picture of the engine at various stages. Like first take the muffler off and look at the port to see what it should look like in real life, not a drawing or owners manual.

Pull the piston out and show what the ring position should be. Better yet, in stead of pulling one apart, show the proper way to put one together.

Not a small job which is why I said a group of people should tackel the job. I can format it, make it into a PDF file and post it.

Jiom:
I am going to rebuild a couple motors in the near future. I will try and take some good photos of the process.

I guess I should have read that better.

That manual is pretty good though.

Jeff: I like your idea on the sealed motor program. Have raced in a lot of divisions from Late models to Go-Karts most stock engines is sealed by wire with a sealed plug to a plug on the motor itself. My champ kart has a sealed wire on the motor as we speak. When i show up at my local dirt track i feel confident that i will be racing against the best driver not the best $$ motor.
Winter racing with the go-quads the heads are also sealed by wire if you race the stock class.
This should help inspectors at the tracks from tearing down a completely good motor.

Like to see it only in the NCS events only and not at your local tracks.

By talking this way Jeff , this will open a big can of worms over this issue;)

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

Jeff: I like your idea on the sealed motor program. Have raced in a lot of divisions from Late models to Go-Karts most stock engines is sealed by wire with a sealed plug to a plug on the motor itself. My champ kart has a sealed wire on the motor as we speak. When i show up at my local dirt track i feel confident that i will be racing against the best driver not the best $$ motor.
Winter racing with the go-quads the heads are also sealed by wire if you race the stock class.
This should help inspectors at the tracks from tearing down a completely good motor.

Like to see it only in the NCS events only and not at your local tracks.

By talking this way Jeff , this will open a big can of worms over this issue;)

Mike
willmannracingproducts.comMike why don't you start to seal by wire.Talk to Randy to see if you can work out something.

Working on my website .I will start offering cad files to download.Some for free some for a small fee.http://first25q.tripod.com/

ED

New engines will keep us from using the sealed method. And, it will stop the racers that have the ability to rebuild their own and save money. Plus, a sealed motor will need a good warrantee.

Example: Racer X just installed his freshly rebuilt and sealed motor. After a run or two, he notices a leak at the head gasket. He has a spare gasket, but he can't install it himself due to his engine being sealed. So, he has to pack up his stuff and heads to the house. Then he has to UPS his engine out for repair. Yes, I know other racers would help him out in this situation, but maybe he's not a likeable racer? ....LOL;)

I don't know the answer to this dilemma other than: Always know what you have engine wise before racing it!!!!!

I forgot to add: I would not be opposed to a engine claimer rule.....

Exactly why I would prefer to educate rather than impose something on the manufatures and engine re-builders. The rules are clear, people are in place to over see the fairness of racing. In the end, we are all responsible for what we drive and there are plenty of folks willing to help out the newbees and any racer in fact.

Jim, I'm with you on the educating of racers. Any and everything that we can learn then share(have to share cause I ain't no teacher :)), only makes our hobby better.

I'm not saying that you have to run a sealed engine all the time just if a guy had a sealed engine it wouldn't need to get taken down if he drew the low card at a QSAC race.

Mike, I didn't mean not to run it on a local level. Just that everyone will be able to run there old engines that they don't have to spend money to get rebuilt and seal by a engine builder. I would like to see all of the sealed but we know that won"t happen.

I ran late models on drit for years and then they came out with the Late model crate cars were the engine was a Sealed GM engine and that was fun. A lot of close racing and everyone new if you were getting out ran that it was in the chassis, shocks and gearing. That was a lot of fun.

Everyone knows that they are responsible for their engines.

If anyone has any question about their engine or engines. I can sit down with you at the track after a race and I will go through the engine and check everything for you. I won't charge you anything to take it apart for inspection.

Just $100 to put it back together right? :D

Depends on what it needs. LOL:thumbsup:Just $100 to put it back together right? :D

I am new to 1/4 scale, but I like the engine rules just as they are. if someone has mod-ed their engine a tare down will show it.
I would want to rebuild my engine myself.

I do not like the engine clammer idea. say 100 engines are dyno-ed, 1 or 2 will be better, so people with the most money will end up with them sooner or later. a person racing on a budget with a fast engine will end up loseing it.

just my -.02 cents

Chuck #3

Bottom line is, No not replace parts that has a Chung Yang Name or Part # on it.
I know it's tempting if on a limited budget to buy CY parts (a lot cheeper then Zenoah parts) but shy away from it. It will get you in trouble with QSAC.

If you get a part from a another vendor, make sure it does not say CY on it.
If you get bearings, cranks, pistons, flywheel housing or pullstarters from a vendor, take your time, look over the part and compare your old part to the new part. If you have a used motor from someone else, take a good look at it.

If you decide on purchasing a CY part, make sure your not paying Zenoah price on a CY part. Again CY parts is cheeper and sometimes vendors will charge for the Zenoah amount which can cost you a lot more money.

If you order online, make sure that the heading does not say CY

On my site i sell Zenaoh and well as Chung Yang parts however each part is listed as such with part #s

On used motors have someone take a dial indictor and measure port timing to make sure its within spec. If not in spec, then there is a problem. Timing will weed out any porting done in a cylinder
Check for missing key, broken flywheel or ground down fins.

If you suspect something, feel free to call me (talk is cheep):)

Mike
willmannracingproducts.com

I was not trying to say budget as in cheaper parts for the engine. the rules are very clear. Zenaoh parts only.
I just want to buy Zenaoh parts and install them myself.
I have been rebuilding Chevy engines most of my life and wish to rebuild my Zenaoh engines myself. I fully understand the QSAC rules on engines, that is why I have got into quarter scale. rules are clear and no changes of any kind.
I use to drag race full size cars. many of there rules have many GRAY areas.

thanks for reading my stuff...

Chuck

The illegal motor will always be an issue.Years ago there were only 3 distributers. For Zenoah.In North America.1 in Canada 2 in the states.Now everyone under the sun can one.How can QSAC or the manufacturers control a motor?Maybe a few ways.
1.The 1/4 scale racing body( did not mean QSAC).Has to help the manufacturers.Buy not buying a motor from anyone. Other than the manufacturer.(Sorry to every guy who wants to make a buck)
If you sit back and think for a minute.The best buy for the manufacturer is the motor.They only have overhead.So thats their biggest profit margain.Order them then put in car.I was told this by an ex QSAC offical.When he told me i under stood him.It made things clear for me.Now if you make your own parts.The profit margain goes down.Overhead is alot more.
2.If that cannot be agreed by everyone.Then QSAC and the manufacturers.Should have a spec motor built.There was talk about it not sure what happened.
3.If the first 2 don't work.Then WRP should be in charge of all the motors.Not sticking up for Mike.I bet most of the guys on this site.Have a Wrp motor in their car.If so what does this tell us.WRP is keeping an even playing field.He don't care who wins.He is trying to help 1/4 scale.
My 50 cents
For guys who are trying to download files from my site.The files are not uploaded.I am about putting the 3 cad formats,jpeg and bit map all in one download.If you are looking for sometthing.I will help as fast as i can. E-mail me
ED

The QSAC motor rules are very clear. Go here www.qsac.org (http://www.qsac.org/) and read them. If you have any questions about your motor (being legal) ask someone who knows, or send it to someone who can inspect it for you……Simple.

Next. :)

Amen Scott!!!

There are none so blind than those that will not see.
Also, selecting which rules to follow and when is tantamount to deception. Ignorance may be bliss, however it is not an excuse.

Thanks for listening and have a stress free day.

There are none so blind than those that will not see.
Also, selecting which rules to follow and when is tantamount to deception. Ignorance may be bliss, however it is not an excuse.

Thanks for listening and have a stress free day.

Jim - I think the step by step motor rebuild with pics is a great idea. :thumbsup:

There are none so blind than those that will not see.
Also, selecting which rules to follow and when is tantamount to deception. Ignorance may be bliss, however it is not an excuse.

Thanks for listening and have a stress free day.

Thanks I will try to have a stress free day. thanks for offering.
read the rules and follow them = no problems...

The photos of the rebuild would be GREAT for all interested...

There are none so blind than those that will not see.
Also, selecting which rules to follow and when is tantamount to deception. Ignorance may be bliss, however it is not an excuse.

Thanks for listening and have a stress free day.

Thanks a lot jim now I got a headache

There are none so blind than those that will not see.
Also, selecting which rules to follow and when is tantamount to deception. Ignorance may be bliss, however it is not an excuse.

Thanks for listening and have a stress free day.

Let me explain it to you Will. If you cheat you're blind, selective, deceptive, ignorant but you are blissful, but that doesn't count.

I don't think we will ever get away from this. The truth is with the carb and intake system we have there is really very little to be gained in the engine and not worth the stigma you'll have if you're caught. I have taken a new motor out of the box flipped the muffler, install the clutch housing and intake and won a Main. The darn thing didn't qualify very well but by the time the mains came she was good to go. I don't know why so few people believe this. I have seen people that should know better get caught up in this. I'm down on power! I'm down on power! No.....you're down on corner speed.

Sealing engines works for local or regional racing. I really don't see how it could work nationally. It would also force people to carry a sealed back up engine with them not to mention the added burden put on the manufacturers.

i under stood it brent just messing with jim and his big words take that thesarus away from him he is done lol

Yeah, some mug shots of legal and illegal bandits would help all of us. I would like to see pics of the ported areas belonging to the initial motor in question.

Anyone care to sacrifice a motor for a cut-away view.... LOL