Ok, I see over and over again that people like the HP7 chassis for various reasons.
Other than the fact that the Tomy Turbo does not fit Tyco bodies...
Why are Turbos not liked?

Scott

The Tomy has a stronger magnet than the HP-7. To me, a Tomy Turbo seems a lot like a Tyco 440. Both suffered because the traction magnet wasn't close enough to the rails to give downforce, which is bad for the magnet-racing crowd. Tyco got it right when they tweaked things and came up with the 440x2, the car practically copied by SG+, Patriots, Panthers, etc.

I wouldnt say turbos arent liked. Far from it, Tomy vs Tyco is kinda like Ford vs Chevy in a sense. Each has its fans, although theyre both fairly comparable in one way or another.


But generally speaking, the HP-7 in stock trim isnt really much of a match for a Turbo--and Im not referring to the SRT, either. But a simple mod can bring things If you take the motor magnets from a 440-X2 and pop em into the HP-7 can, it'll just about even things up. Not only does it increase acceleration and top speed, it also increases downforce just a bit. But no matter what, with an HP-7 youd better add a gear saver also since the stock setup will destroy the crown and pinion in no time.

I wouldnt say turbos arent liked. Far from it, Tomy vs Tyco is kinda like Ford vs Chevy in a sense. Each has its fans, although theyre both fairly comparable in one way or another.


But generally speaking, the HP-7 in stock trim isnt really much of a match for a Turbo--and Im not referring to the SRT, either. But a simple mod can bring things If you take the motor magnets from a 440-X2 and pop em into the HP-7 can, it'll just about even things up. Not only does it increase acceleration and top speed, it also increases downforce just a bit. But no matter what, with an HP-7 youd better add a gear saver also since the stock setup will destroy the crown and pinion in no time.

why would the stock set up destroy the crown/pinion?

I see over and over again that people like the HP7 chassis for various reasons

And some don't. I've always considered the HP7 mediocre at best, a low cost uninspired design alternative to the much more robust and well engineered 440-X2. Nothing wrong with that because you need the right marketing mix in any fully fleshed out product line, but definitely something ordered off the 99 cent value menu compared to the rest of the Tyco lineup. Just my 2 cents worth, which probably constitutes what a reasonable down payment on a HP7 chassis would be, if you're not saving up for a six pack of McNuggets.

Alright, I am going to have to reveal my low budget secrets when it comes to the HP7 chassis.

Here is the formula;

Use a chassis with the copper windings, not the green.

Replace rear gear with tyco 440 gear and saver.
Or, swap to a 20 tooth Riggen gear with a saver for max top end if you are running on a big track.
Or just use a 8 tooth pinion form another chassis to increase the top end.

Rear tires use low profile Weird Jacks or something equal, or better yet some Law tires.
Put Tyco Indy 440 X2 low profile front tires on stock front rims (they will stretch to fit)
Rebend the pickup shoes for maximum rail contact. (This will take some time of trial and error)

Now the secret sauce!
Add Marchon traction magnets on top of the stock magnet, they will stick to it and stay still.
Just make sure they are not rubbing the armature shaft.

Now pick a nice light body, I am using a Ferrari F40 which is well balanced and runs great.

With the Riggen gear and some Wizzard Law tires this car runs with 440 x2's and SRT's, it is fun because it still can step out in the corners and recover. It's like a well handling Tjet on Steriods!

Anyway, have fun experimenting with different parts from your parts box.
Later,

Keith

I really like the HP7s it is really the only Tyco chassis I enjoy without removing the traction magnets and lowering the voltage. I like Turbos too, but I do remove the traction magnets and lower the voltage to 15 volts when I run them.

But no matter what, with an HP-7 youd better add a gear saver also since the stock setup will destroy the crown and pinion in no time.

And Grunge, that explains why most of the HP7s I have have toasted crown gears. The axle walks back and forth changing the mesh until STRIP!

Scott

Keith ,

I like your formula.

That's what makes this hobby fun.

You might add a TOMY superG+ arm and epoxy it's magnets in the can as well.

Gonzo

Well, everyone forgot one thing. Although not as fast, the HP7 has an adjustable wheelbase. This gives you quite a range of body styles and handling techniques. In my opinion, the long wheel base handles better than the short HP7. I happen to like both chassis very much. If I were to rate chassis on a scale of 1 to 10 on what I like, not what's actually the best, it would be as follows....

7 - HP7 (don't like the tabs sticking down behind the shoes)
8 - Turbo
6 - 440
9 - 440x2
6 - SuperG+ (Where did my shoe go? Anyone see a spring?)
5 - any Patriot
9 - M chassis (inconsistent, but the good ones are great)
4 - T chassis (great the first five minutes out of the package)
6 - AFX
9 - AFX Mag (there's nothing smoother than a good Magnatraction)
8 - AW UltraG Mag (Good improvement in handling without over kill.)
5 - HP2 CH (shoes seem to be an issue, availability)

In case anyone was asking. I know there's more chassis but I either don't have them or refuse to give an opinion on them. This is just the chassis we usually run. This ranking gives you a good idea how I feel about the HP7 and the Turbo.

Rich

Hey Pomfish, why do you say to avoid the greenwire arms? Those are the hottest ones, in my experience. Its basically a modified version the same arm used in the 2nd generation HP-2s, and theyre pretty powerful. Now, the wide gap gold wire arms arent bad either, especially if you find a motor that has the black front endbell. They seem to run right with the greenwire ones more or less.

And Newbie, your question was answered by Noddaz. They dont have a gearsaver, and since these have a long pinion shaft it has a tendency to torque away from the crown and then its strip city. But put a gearsaver on it and your golden.

And Rich, I know a few tricks to get around the HP2/Curvehugger pickup shoe issues. And depending on how far you take it, Im serious when I say that these chassis will run like you wouldnt believe. Ive been meaning to post pics and a tutorial on how I tune them as well as HP-7s, but my camera is total crappola and wont pick up any of the details. If youd like some pointers tho, PM me. I know youre one of the the main Tyco addicts here.

Ill say that I disagree with AFXToo on this. The HP's and Curvehuggers are WAY more fun to tune and run than 440X2s. In fact, on most cars that I run at all, I dont bother with 440 widepans, Id rather have an HP of some kind. Narrow tab bodies, you dont have a lot of choice.

Yeah the 440s will smoke them in straight speed and handling, for kids or inexperienced slotters its a LOT better place for them to start out and learn how to race, but I like the fact that HPs take more skill to run. I like the weak magnetic traction and tail sliding. If you know the right tricks you can get the motors in most of these to run WAY fast and with the weak magnetic pull it can get interesting when you run them flat out. But thats why slots are fun, theres something for all tastes.

I think the 440s and the AFX nonmag make great drag cars.

ggj, I do have a HP2 CH that runs great. The shoe design on these makes it where you have to run tall fronts. I actually like these chassis because they tuck the rear wheels under the body. You can get one of these to look way more realistic. I would like to know some tricks on tuning them and a way around the shoe shortage. Why not go ahead and post that info here? Our guys won't run the HP2s because of lack of parts. Everyone seems to have one or two, but no one has twenty-five that they can pick the best from. What ever happened to run-whatcha- brung?

Ok, I see over and over again that people like the HP7 chassis for various reasons. Other than the fact that the Tomy Turbo does not fit Tyco bodies...
Why are Turbos not liked?

Scott

Scott,
I guess I'm partial to the HP-7 because I have a lot more of them (as runners) than Turbos. My Turbos are like bullets, and I'm just not much of a high speed - super sucker fan. The HP-7s, depending on the strength of the traction magnet, can actually fishtail around corners.

I have disassembled many HP-7s (no tolls required) and it is the simplicity of the design that makes it appealing. Plus - no small parts!! It would be my chassis of choice to use as an introduction into this hobby. Especially if there were various motor/magnet combinations available.

Joe

I like the Turbo a lot, but yeah, they got the gearing all wrong on it for a car designed to run at 22V. Less downforce and a top end gear ratio just don't mix on a small track. The SRT's 7/25 gear ratio would have been much more appropriate for the Turbo. The only car that had a more lopsided setup out of the package was the Life-Like Pro Tracker SS.

Any relative assessment of cars must be weighed against the track layout you run them on. To say the track makes a big difference is a gross understatement.

thanks ggj!i guess the long pinion shaft would create what they call"whip"?thus causing the shaft to spin off center?

. . . I actually like these chassis because they tuck the rear wheels under the body. You can get one of these to look way more realistic . . .

Rich --

This is how we mod the HP7 chassis to stick the rear wheels up under the bodies . . .

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/HP7_chassis.jpg

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/ARAchassis.jpg

Look at the little 'wings' in front of the rear wheels and you will see them missing on the one chassis. A Dremel with a small grinder or even an Xacto knife (be careful) can be used to remove the extra material. I think the wings are there for chassis integrity, however, we have never had a chassis fail after this mod, so maybe it was a little overkill by Tyco.

Ok, so what do you hot rodders do with the HP-7 pick ups...?
Those nickel-plated spring-loaded thingys seem to want to push the front out of the slot for me...

scott

Ok, Rich. First off, lemme answer Noddaz' question about HP-7s: What you do is completely disassemble the chassis, first off. Two mods I do to EACH and EVERY one of these things is a gear saver, and a little mod to the pickups. underneath the little plates that retain the pickup shoes and that have the little leaf spring thingy are two little ridges that run under the springs to increase tension. Get rid of em. Get one of those little scrapers that takes a single edge razor blade and shave those right off the chassis. Be sure NOT to shave off the little round 'nipple' things that are under there, or the plates/springs wont ever stay put again. Now the leaf spring can fully flex all the way and you wont pop out of the slot near as much. And you can tweak and tune the springs however you want.

Rich, there's two solutions to the HP-2 and Curvehugger pickup dilemma. You need taller tires since the pickups dont retract all the way into that assembly thing. When you pull one apart, you realize that those little 'buckets' that the springs set into are the culprit. Look at the assembly from the side, and you'll see that its not much, but those 'buckets' extend down below the rest of the assembly. Now here's where it gets complicated, since there are 3 distinctly different designs on those pickup assemblies.

The black ones from the first generation black curvehugger chassis have a full brass sleeve/rivet that goes all the way thru the spring buckets and holds the contact plates onto the assembly. Some of the first grey ones have that too. These are the best assemblies if you want to keep the stock pickup shoe/spring arrangement since basically the springs are the only electrical connection between the shoe and the plates on top of the pickup assemblies. That brass sleeve gives a little more metal-to-metal contact than the later designs, and the little tabs that extend to the brush barrels dont have that thinner area about halfway down that always breaks off on the later designs. Trouble with the black ones is theyre a bit more brittle and prone to cracking than the silver ones. So the silver ones with the full brass buckets and the rivets on top are really the most desireable design.

The later design was used on all the 2nd generation HP-2s with the separate traction magnets and wide rear axle. That one doesnt have the full brass sleeve in the spring buckets, instead its crimped on with a front and rear tab. The tabs that go to the brush barrels on these have the thinner end section which is prone to breaking off. I cant really do a good job of describing how I do it without pics, but this is the one I try to use for converting to braided pickups--resulting in a SCREAMER of an HP2 or curvehugger, although I can fix it up for pickup shoes/springs also if the barrel tabs arent broken. Which by the way, if one or both is broken off at about halfway, you can still set it up for braids.

So, to correct either design for proper pickup shoe function youre basically doing the same thing but the technique is a little different. In both cases you want to first off put the pickups in a pair of pliers and flatten them out pretty good. Then bring in the front and rear tabs since when you do that theyll spread way out. Then on the earlier sleeved bucket design, simply take a needle file and file the buckets and sleeves down even with the rest of the assembly. Its just like a 3rd of a millimeter or something but this'll make a HUGE diffference since your front tires will actually support the front of the chassis now, and the pickups will float below. And while we're on it, this problem is nowhere NEAR as bad on the earlier design chassis if they have the stock centerline design wheels with the narrow tall tires. Thats what this pickup system was designed to work with. On the black assembly, if you have the silver steel pickup springs, toss em for the later copper ones. The silver springs conduct for crap and have no tension at all. If the copper springs are anything other than brand spanking shiny new, make sure to *very carefully* polish the ends with a rubber emery wheel in your dremel. Be sure to hold the end nice and firm or it'll shoot right out.

The later design is a bit more involved but its still pretty easy. First, flip over the assembly and look at the front tabs crimping on the brass plates. Take a flat blade screwdriver and bend it back towards the spring bucket and press it down in there flat, getting it out of the way. Those little tabs crimping on the plates also extend down and limit pickup shoe travel. Then take that same single edge razor scraper that Noddaz used to mod his HP-7 and razor off the excess spring bucket. Be careful not to razor off any excess finger while youre at it. Then take a square needle file and file it down anything you missed nice and smooth, including the rear brass crimping tab. Get right in there tight toward the insides also, you want all the excess gone.

In both casesYoure removing a very small amount of material but once you reassemble it all, you'll again notice your stock front tires supporting the front of the car, not the pickups themselves dragging right on the rails. Your cars will run quieter, and faster due to less friction and the pickups will last a LOT longer.

Oh and to complicate things further, there are more or less 3 different motors in the 1st generation HP2s, and 2 in the 2nd generation. One good rule of thumb is green wire motors (Mabuchis) are always good, but there is one of the goldwire Johnson motors in the 1st generation HP2s that runs awesome too. I actually do have more than 25 or so HP2s in my collection. In fact, between black ones, grey ones, 1st generation and 2nd generation I have 3 times that, easily.

Oh and btw, pickups arent in THAT short of supply for CH/HP2. NCP hobbies has them, Slotfather on ebay has them, Tubtrack, etc. True, theyre all N.O.S. and in limited quantities, and sometimes complete pickup assemblies at $5 a pop but you can get them. And theres always EvilBay which is where Ive built up my supply.

But there's always my braid conversion to solve that anyway!

I have read this thread with interest but have one question about something I don't understand. Every chassis I own with a gear saver gets the saver removed and the crown spaced to optimum clearance. This saves rear weight and provides a better mesh. Is there something unique to the HP-7 (i.e. chassis flex) that precludes this option?

Thanks,
Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com

it was stated that the shaft for the pinion is pretty long,creating "whip"i believe.this would help to strip the pinion prematurely due to off center rotation.namely.the closer the pinion is to the arm,the more true the rotation of the shaft...

Is there something unique to the HP-7 (i.e. chassis flex) that precludes this option?
Thanks,
Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com

Yes,
The HP7 doesn't have a rear bulk head like the 440, or 440x2. If you look at the diagram at the top of the page, you can see where the can stops after the open motor space. Just behind behind that, the armature sticks out of the bearing on the back of the can, and goes all the way back to where you can see the gear pressed on, with no support. This allows just enough flex in the mesh to strip a gear easily. If you try to shim the flex out of it, it binds the motor. The AFX turbo doesn't have this problem for 2 reasons, the armatures shaft is thicker, and the shaft is shorter. Still, AFX sees the need to install a gear saver. The earlier Tyco can motors didn't have this problem, for the same reasons as the AFX turbos. Since the HP7 comes with the same pinion gear as the 440x2, it's just easy to put a gear saver on it.

Rich

thanks for the clarification rich...

Anytime B

hey rich,any advice on tycopro tuning?i have one and just can't seem to get er running how i would like.ggj and twollf and i have discussed this a few times,wipers/vs braids/vs buttons,etc.just thought i would ask your take on it

Sure thing,
The best thing I've found to tune a TycoPro is to pop the body off and slide an HP7 under it. Seriously, we don't have enough in our group to get anyone to run TycoPros. A couple of us like the chassis, but no one wants to try to run them. They'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to tune a Fray car, but won't mess with a TycoPro, even though you can get a TycoPro to run circles around a Tjet. Something about that pancake motor hypnotizes them into buying more.
I have a button chassis. I don't have as much trouble with it as other people say. I know the one with the shoes runs better, I think. I'm saving these cars to run in drag races, so, I guess the braids and shunts would be the best. I only have three or four of these. How many do ya'll have?

Rich

More than I care to count :) I matters little to me that the TycoPro is not the fastest of it's kind. I like the way they handle on my Tomy track with a pair of Wierd Jack's BOR rears and o-ring front tires. They remind me of running stock 1/24th scale cars.
The TycoPro history articles are a great read and explain a number of things. Like why those drop arm chassis I like so much will never run right or at least not as well as the later models. :(
I can get the wiper chassis running good, but the wipers wear quite rapidly. I've gotten a supply of replacements and am planning on trying out a virgin pair to see how long they last. As it is, I'll wear through a set of refirbished wipers in a single evening of hot lapping. Probably more laps than the average race day. The button chassis are just plain inconsistent and slower than the wiper chassis. They won't accept any tuning near as I can tell making them low maintaince. The buttons are supposed to rotate making replacing the shunt wires on them a challenge.
I have all the parts to build a Riggen now too. I'm only short time.

Thanks for the explanation Rich, I knew I was missing something.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com

Also, the early LifeLike M chassis did not have a gear saver, and had the same problem as the HP7, no gear saver, and stripped gears. They fixed that though.

Also, the early LifeLike M chassis did not have a gear saver, and had the same problem as the HP7, no gear saver, and stripped gears. They fixed that though.

So there is a reason they call it a "gear saver" versus an "extra plastic dealie"? Who knew? Well, Rich knew.

:drunk::hat::freak::dude: Hutt

Rich Ive had a handful of Tycopros, and its pretty much like this:

Button Chassis: Crap. Harvest the motor, pinion and rear axle, put the rest in a box and when you have enough dead chassis with useable parts, put em on Ebay.

Drop Arm Chassis: Get it running good, then put it on ebay also. For some reason people think this one is the most desireable but Ive rebuilt like 3 or 4 and not one has ever accelerated or taken a curve all that great. Definitely not as well as...

Wiper Chassis: this is the one you want. Nice and heavy, runs smooth, handles well. Yep, the wipers wear out quickly. So, either get some thin copper sheet and make your own, or rig up some braids.

Incase anyone is interested, I was making my own gear savers and selling them on eBay which I'm sure some of you have seen before. I do still have some available I just need to get off my lazy butt and get some on there. I also have a ton of my Custom Wheels that I need to list as well...Just thought I'd throw my 2 pennies in :) I'll try and post some pics somewhere so you can see them.

[quote=grungerockjeepe;2726997]Rich Ive had a handful of Tycopros, and its pretty much like this:

Button Chassis: Crap. Harvest the motor, pinion and rear axle, put the rest in a box and when you have enough dead chassis with useable parts, put em on Ebay.

Drop Arm Chassis: Get it running good, then put it on ebay also. For some reason people think this one is the most desireable but Ive rebuilt like 3 or 4 and not one has ever accelerated or taken a curve all that great. Definitely not as well as...

Wiper Chassis: this is the one you want. Nice and heavy, runs smooth, handles well. Yep, the wipers wear out quickly. So, either get some thin copper sheet and make your own, or rig up some braids.



yeah me and my buddy are playing around with solutions for the button problem.i am just going to go braids,as i want to run it on his big routed track anyway.we have tried a tiny bit of solder,with a small amount of braid material,but it's not cutting it.i am just gonna rip it apart and make it work with braids.i like the brass pan tycopros.more from a "nifty show and tell night "point of view.but once they run well,they run well!

Rich --

This is how we mod the HP7 chassis to stick the rear wheels up under the bodies . . .

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/HP7_chassis.jpg

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/ARAchassis.jpg

Look at the little 'wings' in front of the rear wheels and you will see them missing on the one chassis. A Dremel with a small grinder or even an Xacto knife (be careful) can be used to remove the extra material. I think the wings are there for chassis integrity, however, we have never had a chassis fail after this mod, so maybe it was a little overkill by Tyco.

Thanks 'doba, sure makes those Porsche bodies look a lot better!

Thanks 'doba, sure makes those Porsche bodies look a lot better!

Cool :thumbsup:

I try to help when I can :)

I guess I've been lucky... I have all types pf Tyco Pro chassis, and they all run great.
I have one that was modified with an AJ's pan that flat out screams!

Some handle netter than others, but not a sleeper in the group.
I have about 30 of these little babies... like I said, they all run great.

And yes, wipers are better then buttons...

What Id like to work out is a reliable way to ditch the lead wires from tycopros. That setup is EXTREMELY fragile and will tear loose if you so much as stare at it. The riggen chassis is similar, but at least it eliminates 2 of the solder joints by clipping the leads right into the brush tubes. I bought an extra one of those AJ's wiper rigs thinking that the wipers with the extended tabs would make it right to the motors like they do on the OSCARS, and other AJs chassis, but the dimensions are different. Thats how it should be designed if using wipers, IMHO.

But no matter what, with an HP-7 you'd better add a gear saver also since the stock setup will destroy the crown and pinion in no time.

I was looking at the Scale Auto site for an unrelated matter and was taking a look at the G-Jet chassis (just looking, I have no intention of buying). I noticed it also does not have a gear saver on the rear axle, so I was wondering whether or not the gear stripping problem occurs on this chassis as well.

Thanks...Joe

If it's the same as the superG+, then no. The gearing is different, the HP7 has finer teeth, and the shaft is longer on the HP7, causing the 'whip' action when torqued which causes the stripping of gears. Improper marshaling causes most gear stripping though.

Rich, theres the longer pinion shaft and fine teeth issues, but I think part of the problem is also the fact that if you look on the right rear axle boss, there's just this half of a nib to the inside that pushes the crown gear against the pinion. It looks to me like they had meant to have a gearsaver, then decided to cheap out, save 3 cents per chassis and mold in the nib calling it good enough.

On top of that, the Super G+ chassis is also an integrated inline chassis, whereas the HP-7 has a drop in motor. Id imagine that the SG+ is overall stiffer and more stable than the HP-7, which would help reel in that problem. Just the same, any chassis that I can fit a saver onto, I install it. Cheap peace of mind.

You can use spacers between the crown gear and chassis to set the proper gear lash and eliminate the need for a gear boss on this class of car.

I'd be very surprised if you are getting whip from the armature shaft on an HP7 motor running at the maximum torque that the motor is capable of generating. Sloppy motor bushings, sloppy rear axle retainment, loose motor mounting, overly soft gears, excessive chassis flex, maybe, but the puny little motor causing enough shaft whip to contribute to gear stripping, I'm very skeptical.

I use a gear boss on Mod and RO cars and Tyco X2s with Phase IIs, i.e., cars with heavy traction magnets and where chassis flex may be an issue (Tyco). On stock and SS cars, almost never used a gear boss and never stripped a gear due to gear mesh issues, but I also never use Tyco crowns on a race car because they are soft and I don't like how their teeth mesh. Tyco pinions I don't mind on low downforce cars because they are soft and break-in very quickly, but because they are soft I always glue or Loctite them on the shaft, especially if they have been removed. If your pinion gear slips backward and starts rubbing on the gear boss or crown gear flange (like on Slottech crowns) you can toast the motor rather quickly.

I'm of the opinion that gear bosses are generally only needed in two cases: 1) extreme performance situations on high end, high stress, mega downforce race cars, and 2) on low end, high volume manufactured products that may scrimp a bit on material quality and need to accommodate rapid assembly with course grained precision, i.e., slap it together assembly line manufacturing.

The GJet has a nice sturdy chassis, high quality gears, low downforce, and precision assembly. It does not need a gear boss.

Spacers might help, AFX2. I have literally several dozen of the first style of hp-2/curvehuggers which have no provisions for a saver and gear mesh and strip on those is almost never an issue, even as old and well run as most of those cars are. They did a good job on the gears, I guess.

About HP-7 motor torque, remember there are like 4 different variations. If youre running a narrow gap, gold wire arm completely stock then yea, theres not a lot of torque there. But there's also the gold wire arm with the wide gap stacks, and those are much more powerful, especially if you find those that have the brush endbell molded in black. But then of course, the green wire arms are torque monsters. And its further complicated by the fact that I always drop in upgraded motor magnets on the HP-7s I run either from a 440, or from an Ideal TCR--the motor is pretty much the same as the later style HP-2s. Once you modify an HP-7 motor like this its a LOT more powerful and will destroy the stock gear setup.