As a practice run to my still-boxed 350-1701, I am building this Destroyer variant. This is my learning edition. Specifically how to light and paint the bastard. Setting up light boxes looks like a must. I'll be experimenting with shaping and masking individual LEDs as well. The led I'll be using are white, but they appear blue in the video. This is a white balance issue that my camera is having a time with.

Tonight's entry:
Pt2 First Light 7 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7gUWvxIYt0&feature=PlayList&p=3DA4C5CCA10F8975&index=2

Previous entries:
pt1A Overview 4 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ3lZzBM4UU&feature=PlayList&p=3DA4C5CCA10F8975&index=1

pt1B Overview 8 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLO8KwKdxS0&feature=PlayList&p=3DA4C5CCA10F8975&index=0

Can't get Youtube at work. Can you post some photos?
I'm doing a destroyer as well, but I'm stalled halfway thru working out the wiring. I'm using 18-LED strings of Xmas lights that Target was selling for $5.

You should be working at work not researching models! ;) lol!

But yeah, I'll be taking the occasional pic as I go. There's not much specific to see yet. The First Light vid is me contemplating and exploring the saucer with a single white led mostly.

The videos cover so much more in a few mins than a dozens of pix, thousands of words and hours of typing can cover. So my apologies on my laziness to all on that count.

General Lighting notes so far: I first thought the interior ridge around the saucer was going to need eliminating. Messing around with some leds this evening I found that it actually adds to the illusion that there are rooms behind the windows. But it will require strategic sculpting.

However, by keeping this interior room illusion, I am now thinking each window section will need three leds to light them properly -one on each side pointing to teh center and one in the dead middle behind a wall. The trouble I'm seeing is getting flare from direct angles. Hmm. How can I explain that better? I'll need to get some pix or vid on that point.

Basically, I want to eliminate the possibility of seeing an led directly. On paper, it can be done. However getting an led into position and keeping it there forever may be tough. I don't want to do 'general lighting' where all saucer windows are lit be three or four leds.

I've shaved a couple leds into rectangles and this has helped immensely with positioning them and getting the right lighting effect, direction and angles. However, I'm seeing a nightmare in controlling fall off vs. intensity, angle and shape.

I think the saucer 'beauty lights', can be achieved w/o invoking the Raytheon Method, but it's tough so far. The lower hull should work, but the top may be impossible. I gotta watch the films while I'm working on this monster.

Another big consideration is intensity vs. scale. I don't know the exact math, but a light that covers x space w/ y intensity on an object z big, means that all those factors need to be scaled down simultaneously. In this case, i am considering the size of the E to be 8 feet, not 1,000+.

The leds I have are all 13kmcd or 17kmcd. They are too bright in some cases and not bright enough in others so far as i have seen. I am contemplating dropping their intensity by chaining multiple lights into single circuits to drop their power. The simple side of that math I can do, but will need to do some real world experiments to truly know the results. As example, I'll be using a 12v wall wart to juice this bird. Each white led of mine takes just under 3v to light, so I may be able to string 5 or 6 together and still get them to burn, but a little less intensely.

Followups to follow. All help appreciated!!!

More lighting notes:
I just finished watching TWoK specifically for ship lighting ref. All the TMP stock footage is pretty much self-consistent.

When ILM takes over, every setup has different lighting. Some attention was paid to what Trumbull did on the broadstrokes, but there is little apparent effort to match anything else. Lights are on, then they are off; positions and the very shapes of the light change. The only ones that stay on are the broad dorsal, fwd saucer top and bottom, and the end of the nacelles. However, even all these change shape or appear in different regions of their respective areas.

As this is a Destroyer I'm building, I only need to worry about the saucer most of all. I think I can do that w/o the backlighting the plastic by shaping the leds and super-positioning them. I think I can cheat the neck lights from the saucer somehow, but the nacelle ends are out of the question.

Also, looking at Reliant physically, I will try to match those nacelles more so than 1701's in terms of shape.

Aside -A 350 Reliant will be immune to the Raytheon methodology as portions of the pylons and the rollbar are lit. There is simply no interior space t house an led. But light sheet could possibly work...

http://twinlitworlds.com/modelwerx/graphics/kits/k000_youtube/pl_350d_01.JPG

Slice and Dice! 10 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEn3Cx01NEg&feature=PlayList&p=3DA4C5CCA10F8975&index=4

Preliminary Tape Up 1 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77uS3vr1RaY&feature=PlayList&p=3DA4C5CCA10F8975&index=5

I've seen successful results lighting the large areas of the saucer from within directly through the white plastic. Black out only the areas that you want no light, then feather the edge of black to the unpainted plastic where you want light to appear. The light from inside allows the white plastic to glow in those areas, giving the illusion it is being lit from some external light source when really it's from inside. Painting the exterior of the saucer will reduce the amount of light transmitting thru the plastic somewhat, but combined with some LED's thru the planetary sensor like what you're doing will supplement that. The idea here is to just get the plastic to glow a bit from inside.

Can't get Youtube at work. Can you post some photos?
I'm doing a destroyer as well, but I'm stalled halfway thru working out the wiring. I'm using 18-LED strings of Xmas lights that Target was selling for $5.

I've been getting my leds off ebay from China. 100pk white + matching resistors you specify for $10 shipped. Various mcd's and colors available. Though some colors are more/less expensive than others. At that price, most of them can be DOA and it's still cheaper than local electronic store purchases. Getting XMas lights is the next best thing I've found as well.

I've seen successful results lighting the large areas of the saucer from within directly through the white plastic.

I've recently come to understand this is unofficially dubbed the 'Raytheon method' as model builder Raytheon first hit on the idea. I could be wrong.

There's a lot of this on youtube. A bunch of the builder's don't do the falloff though and it looks... jarring, which has soured me on the idea. But painting the fall off onto the plastic is the next best thing.

I have also seen the entire ship lit w/ properly aimed spots. This guy here may be the master on that front:
http://www.culttvman2.com/dnn/Models/ModelingStarTrek/StarTrekotherEnterprises/KyuWoongLeesMovieEnterprise1701/tabid/815/AlbumID/1526-515/Default.aspx

No cheats on that ERTL build, all done with aimed lights. Nice!

As this Destroyer build is the experiment for my 1701 build, I'm gonna try to do it w/o the cheats and go for the Kyu-Woong method. Depending on success/failure, I will adapt those lessons to the 1701 build. A mix of both techniques may be the best result as you suggest.

Thanks all!

As example, I'll be using a 12v wall wart to juice this bird. Each white led of mine takes just under 3v to light, so I may be able to string 5 or 6 together and still get them to burn, but a little less intensely.

Don't forget that each led also uses 20ma of currant. I know I had to go out and source a specific plug pack to run my refit as all the leds add up to approx 720ma plus the nav board. Thru trial and error I found one of the easiest ways to shield an led is shrink tube and a couple of coats of black paint painted on the bits not covered by by the shrink tube, warning don't use metalicsas they can cause a short on the leds pins.

Cheers,

Alec. :wave:

Good to know about the metallix paint. Makes sense.

I've got a wide selection of wall warts to choose from of all volts and mA, so not too worry. But I do not want the issue to get out of hand either! 720mA is def. a huge #. When things look like they might get out of hand, I will make some tough decisions.

This Destroyer should go easy on the power and I think what I learn from this will prep me for the 'real deal'. I'll be starting the Hvy Cruiser very soon. Laying out the wiring will be the ultimate thing to do first.

I saw that you blacked the interior completely first. Has that come back to bite you, Alec?

Here's a super shaved down LED in teh wingtip. It was 5mm, now it's just barely larger than the inner leads. A little further and it would be quite dead. I killed a few of them in trying to shave them down.
http://www.twinlitworlds.com/modelwerx/graphics/kits/k005_1701refit/pl350_ledwingtip.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iunm8XYVjk&feature=PlayList&p=3DA4C5CCA10F8975&index=6

I saw that you blacked the interior completely first. Has that come back to bite you, Alec?

On the whole I'd have to say no as most of the black was overcoated in a white primer then 2-3 layers of gloss white. On hindsite maybe a silver then overcoated with the white gloss. That is pretty much the way I'll be going on my FS1 build.

And yes your right 720ma is a big number but you need a lot of leds to light the beast.

Cheers,

Alec. :wave:

I've recently come to understand this is unofficially dubbed the 'Raytheon method' as model builder Raytheon first hit on the idea. I could be wrong.


Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. I don not understand why so many people seem to like this effect.

Backlit plastic does not look like an external spotlight! It looks like backlit plastic. It's like you put hours and hours into a detailed, exquisite paint job to make your miniature look as realistic as possible, and then a flip a switch that turns on a neon sign reading "THIS IS A TOY!"

Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. I don not understand why so many people seem to like this effect.

Backlit plastic does not look like an external spotlight! It looks like backlit plastic. It's like you put hours and hours into a detailed, exquisite paint job to make your miniature look as realistic as possible, and then a flip a switch that turns on a neon sign reading "THIS IS A TOY!"

Though I don't belittle anyone doing this effect and some of those done are very good. I have to agree with guartho here on this. Thats why I chose not to do mine like that. But thats what modeling is about... Choices and what we want to do on our builds.

Back-lighting is a second best choice.

The ERTL link I posted was all done 'externally' by punching holes in the plastic and aiming the lights where they needed to go. That guy used lensed train lights.

From what I can tell so far, you have to throw a LOT of tightly focused lumens at the areas to get a similar studio effect -and drill holes where needed to house the lights -also a second best choice if you are looking to make it accurate. In this case, the ERTL is better as it is smaller and the light has less distance to travel. The bad size is it's smaller and ther'es less room for housing. So this can be done, but a second best choice.

The only way to do it accurately is with the Trumbull method, which is also a second tier choice.

So there are 3 methods, none ideal, all achieving similar results.

I would say most back-lit E's I've randomly come across are done poorly. They fail in the execution or the understanding of light's properties (fall off being the worse culprit and utter death-knell). A few builds are done exceptionally well and at least impart the illusion of front-light to a large degree.

Once I restock my leds, I will try all three methods on this Destroyer to see first hand the bene's and negs of each and report here.

We're all stuck with imperfect options on this model.

Have I missed any alternatives? Not lighting it is not an option for me. I think the model looks 'worse' when not lit up. Worse is the wrong word... Lacking? Under-dressed? Yearning for another layer of beauty? Something...

-And that is not to denegrate anyone who doesn't light their's. I simply have to push mine to that limit.

Though I don't belittle anyone doing this effect and some of those done are very good.

Re-reading my post it seems to come off a bit belittling to those that go for the backlit effect. My little rant was about my aesthetic opinion and not about your choice to go another way. I apologize if anyone took it as such.

For me the deal-breakers are the paint job and the hard lines (this is the first time I've read of someone addressing falloff) When you've got a great aztec painted on or in decals, they make the backlighting much more obvious.

This is also the first time I've read of someone combining the backlighting with real external lights. Anyone have some good pictures of how that looks?

Did I just come across the holy grail of warp drive lighting?

Let's review the two common techniques in circulation.

LEDs: No good because they create hotspots no matter how many or few are used.

CCFL: A single CCFL tube by itself looks bad because it looks like a single ccfl tube behind the grill that demands four light beams. And more than one ccfl becomes logistically unfeasible fast.

But...
I was at a plastic supplier the other day and saw a 1/8" x 6' acrylic rod. It struck me that slicing it down and gluing ten lengths into a pyramid of 4 rows (4,3,2,1) just might diffuse the light perfectly.

The base 4 across match the warp grill design, then stacking 3, 2 and 1 rod on each other and backed directly with the ccfl tube. I thought this would bounce the photons and light all four rods at the grill backface. That didn't quite work as I thought. The light did bounce around, but it went straight to the outer edges of the four rods and mostly missed the interior two rods.

However a variation of this idea looks utterly perfect! Take a look. I think I nailed it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoaWYt0xKMI&feature=PlayList&p=3DA4C5CCA10F8975&index=6

Dude! You are my "hero" for the day :thumbsup: That looks perfect. Thanks for sharing this with the rest of us.

Any up dates?

Updates... I still need to re-supply my electronics dept.
This build would suck up all my white leds at once. Or I can spread what I have left to several kits. So I'm doing the Robin Hood deal. I've had a few on again-off again jobs lately. Until I get something longer term and stable, I gotta be careful where I put the cash I do have. So I've been working on other kits that don't have huge resource issues like this one.

Also, I'm in a quandry. I don't want to mask every last little bastard of a port hole. But I don't want to paint the body first, then light and assemble (though AJ-1701 seems to be having some good luck doing just that).

And I need to finally experiment with CMOS. I won't be spending any money on pre-made lighting kits. DIY is a tenth the cost for the same thing. The down side is that I have to learn how to do it all. The other upside is that I have to learn how to do it all. I've got the chips, capacitors and some resitors on hand, it's a matter of finally sitting down and doing it. But once done, this opens up a new realm of lighting for me and also advances lighting on other models that are waiting for me to learn cmos for.

Rest assured, updates will be posted here immediately. I think this ship will not be gotten back to until the summer though. I've got some good scratch builds going now and I see a 2001: ASO frenzy in my May/June future.

The acrylic glue.....

where did you get it from?

Same place I got the rod.
http://www.hastingsplastics.com/