this aught to fire some guys up:rolleyes:A voltage limiting device between the lipo and esc that the race directer installs and checks after each race for tampering it would be R/C racings version of a restricter plate.....joking lol

Or we just cut out the BS and charge the pack plug it in and race NO heating no this and that.

Why do we find ways to scare of new racers or cause guys to say (edited) THIS hobby by creating issues with a simple little thing like heating lipo's. Lipo is and was suposed to be a way to get more guys racing by making it more simple and cheaper to race not finding that extra 1/2 volt by heating your pack whitch we have been told by the manufacturers that if you do it then you are shortening the life of the pack and creating a safety hazzard if you dont pay attention and overheat the pack. duhhh to me thats a huge reason to ban heating along with overcharging.

I just dont get it what is the problem with keeping it simple????? and safe.

My hats off to ALL TRACKS that do not allow lipo heating.

jmccormick

Just realize that the actual WORLD OF RACING doesn't revolve around this board and the 50-60 regular guys who chime in.

MOST racers (club racers) show up and race and stay out of the DRAMA of INTERNET racing. (thankfully)

Some do come and read and never post, then ask question locally...

If local tracks and clubs work people in their local region...they can be sheltered from a lot of this drama, and have a lot of fun racing. Just keep them focused locally!

R/C Oval Growth has to come from the homegrown LOCAL folks, racing LOCAL Club racing...

There is no room for this kind of drama there, and if LOCALS don't cause it, you WON'T have it. (You don't need to over complicate things with STUPID rules)

and what are your rules again joe? lol

it read real smooth though joe.

Kat,

My number ONE rules is the unwritten Rule of HAVING FUN

unless it's dealing with YOU, then it's "Get under your Skin"

have fun achieving both of those goals!

i vote no heat!

...I would have figured you would have jumped on TRINITY's side on this ISSUE, and been the FIRST IN LINE to have their LIPO WARMERS...

...It tickles me the things that GET to you!

it is frustrating joe trying no wait begging to trying to save a racer some money
the avg racer mind you....not bill johnson and his crew of win at all costs..

just the poor avg racer


i know it's wrong for me to do this....but i gotta try one racer at a time...

I WILL suggest you two guys take this to email. I will have no more of your public bickering. I will not ask again.

it is frustrating joe trying no wait begging to trying to save a racer some money
the avg racer mind you....not bill johnson and his crew of win at all costs..

just the poor avg racer


i know it's wrong for me to do this....but i gotta try one racer at a time...

And I'd like for you to Leave my name out of anything you say, unless I've addressed Katf1sh, or Bill Sell in anyway, I've never "Slung" your name around ever...:thumbsup:

I never fought for heating, I just don't get the reasoning everybody is against the same cost and principle as Tire compounding....All Well....Next topic?....

:wave:Later

I have many racers and friends tell me that electric RC racing has never been this fun due to BL and Lipo. These guys are club racers and have yet to worry about heating up there packs. There is already so many things needed to be competitive in RC racing that worrying about the heat of pack should not be one of them.

I have many racers and friends tell me that electric RC racing has never been this fun due to BL and Lipo. These guys are club racers and have yet to worry about heating up there packs. There is already so many things needed to be competitive in RC racing that worrying about the heat of pack should not be one of them.

Danny I wish some of the racers down here in FLORIDA would actually read and take your advice along with the track promoters.Seems that some of them only think of them selves and only what is going to benefit their racing.Brushless/Lipo has been the best thing to happen to r/c in many years so to get that extra 1/2 tenth a lap we all must go to a walgreens and purchase a heating pad. I have seen and heard of alot of stupid things over the years but this takes the cake!!!!!!!! Phillip

right on Phil...

LOL - My heating pad was CHEAP and has MULTIPLE uses...and gets used for those OTHER uses a LOT more... but my CELL BALANCER on the other hand... it was 3 times the price, gets used a lot less frequently...slows DOWN the charging process, makes me late to the start of a race...and I can't find a DANG THING to do with it other than balance a LIPO battery!~

LOL, can we make BALANCING illegal too?

This would all be comical if it wasn’t so sad.

First we have rotors… oh no, someone might have a better rotor then ME so we have to have rotor measurement gages. Oh no, someone might have a better can then ME, so we have to figure out a way to measure windings. Then we have different ESC, oh no… someone might have a better ESC then ME. Different motor manufacturers… oh no, someone might have a better motor then ME. 28c batteries, oh no, someone might have a better battery then MY 20c. 30c… it has to be better then MY 28c. Hey that 40c may have an advantage over MY 30c. Wow, that battery is 110 deg., it may be better then MY battery at 90 deg.

Can we see a pattern here? All of the above comments have the word MY/ME in it. Not one of them addresses what is best for everyone, your track or RC as a hobby.

One of the big deals for brushless/LiPo racing was that it could make racing closer because it makes everything more equal… but of course you have to find a way to make your equipment more equal then others. Or do you just want to do something just so you think you have a perceived advantage over someone else. If you want to go faster, put in a faster motor and move up a class.

With that said, would I ever heat up a pack? You can bet you bottom dollar I would. But then my situation may well be different then most. We go to the track on Friday to practice and camp out to race on Saturday. In the spring I’ve gotten up in the morning and seen ice on the track. Charging and racing a LiPo that is at 40 deg. can not be good for it and even in off-road I think there will be a very noticeable difference between a pack that is at 40 deg and one that is at 100 deg. When it’s warm out I wouldn’t bother to do so.

HANK,

Racers will never change at ANY level...

Not RC
Not GoKarts
Not LOCAL Speedway (Dirt or asphalt)
Not NASCAR
Not F1

The opportunity was there with B/L and LIPO to fix a lot of issues for a lot of racers, racers and mfg's who profit from CHANGE will make sure it never happens.

Is it comical? YES
Is it frustrating? YES
Is it OVER? Oh, HECK NO!

Is it OVER? Oh, HECK NO!

Not yet, although attendance is only declining exponentially. We have enough racers to at least get us through one more season. :rolleyes: Of course, if someone finds another performance angle to exploit this could be the last year. Good job, guys - keep it up.:thumbsup:

Actually we have the technology to build a Lipo pack with built in heating that would wrap each cell. We decided not to release this as it would ad to the cost and hurt the packs but maybe we should not care and release one so those who like heating there Lipos can be happy. It would be allot easier than wrapping it up in a heating pad.

danny you might as well just build it!!!!

let's get this over with fast

fishing is heating up in florida (no pun intended) and i will have alot of time now to fish!

BTW i have a patent on the heating coils and lipo case!!!! you know you stole my idea!

it must last no more than 10 cycles!

get out the eraser boys track records are gonna be smashed!!!!!!

kinda like subway (sorry food refrence)

sir would you like that toasted?

so damn sad i gotta laugh

say it ain't so .....

roar going to step up to the plate and hit a homerun?

As far as heating and cooling of motors or batteries. Due to the recent lipo incidents at he last couple major indoor carpet races there will be an announcement made in the next week or two regarding some rule changes in lipo charging/discharging as well as the use of heating and cooling equipment in the pits at ROAR events.

Thanks to all the alchemny done by the self-minded racers looking for an edge not barred by rules, LiPO's are quickly turning into NiMH batteries.

Is lipo heating needed when it's cold? YES. I've done some bench testing with cold packs under 70 degrees and the output is very weak.

Is lipo heating needed when the track is warm? Not really, but some edge can be found.

Granted some lipo brands may have have a noticeable diference from 80 to 100 but if the rules are set to be 100 or 110 max then everyone can be on a level playing field. As a racer I would rather spend $25 on a heating pad than having to dump 5000mah at 35amps to preheat the pack before charging reducing the life of the pack and increasing the risk of having a fire or swelled pack. The racing is already getting more technical and complicated that every imagined 5, 10, 15, or 20 years ago. So do the next round of racers a favor and keep things simple or r/c will no longer be a hobby but a curse. Right now there are so many grey areas with lipo and brushless and just a few simple rules could end the confusion and increase the appeal for new racers.

If there is an ambient temp rule for Lipos it makes no difference if you run at a track that is 40 degrees or one that is 90 degrees. Just set a + 5 or 10 degree rule. If everyone runs packs at the same temp it will be fair for everyone. Using a heting pad is an extra step that shouldn't be done.

Question, Any given outdoor Hot weather race, how hot could the battery get at the end of a run?....

Figure that number out, build a pack with an internal fusible link/fuse that would burn up after a certain temp...They say heating (Colder weather) is like adding 20 points to the output.....Measure that current, make the bitch burn up (Without harm) internally, and the only way to be repair is a $30 service charge for you (Danny) to open her up and repair.....
Then base the rule on that max temp....

Just another way for you to make money and keep things honest....:thumbsup:

Here is some interesting info direct from a Lipo manufacturer:

Handling precautions and prohibitions for Lithium-Polymer batteries

General information:
Lithium-Polymer ( abbreviation : LiPo) batteries require particularly careful handling. Mishandling these batteries may lead to explosions, fire, smoke and a risk of poisoning.
1. Charging

1-1 Charging voltage :
These batteries should charged with a charger that is specifically designed for LiPo cells, charging at above 4.25V per cell , which is the absolute maximum voltage. It must be strictly prohibited as higher voltage causes permanent damage to the cells and causes fires.
1-2 Charging current:
LiPo batteries can be charged at a rate of max. 2C (1C corresponds to the cell capacity). Charging with higher current than recommended may cause damage to cell performance and safety features deeply, and can lead to heat generation or leakage.
1-3 Charging temperature:
These batteries shall be charged within a range of temperature 0C to 50C. If these batteries are charged at the temperature out of the specified range, leakage, heat generation or other damage may be caused.

2-1 Discharging current :
LiPo batteries can be discharged at continuous currents of around 30C (with 70~80% capacity). High discharging current may reduce the discharging capacity remarkably or cause over heating.

2-2 Discharging temperature :
These batteries shall be discharged within a range of -10 degree C to 60 degree C.
At a temperature of -10 degree C or less, the battery will show a significant decrease in discharge capacity. The battery temperature during the discharging should not exceed 70 degree C.
2-3 Over-discharging
Normally, LiPo batteries start to discharge at 4.2V and terminate at a cut-off voltage of 3.0V. Discharging these batteries to a point below 2.5V per cell causes permanent damage to the cells, and this must be avoided.

3. Shipment
Lithium cells and batteries must be shipped in 30% charged state for safety reasons.


Maybe some already know some of this but maybe not.

Here is some interesting info direct from a Lipo manufacturer:

Handling precautions and prohibitions for Lithium-Polymer batteries

General information:
Lithium-Polymer ( abbreviation : LiPo) batteries require particularly careful handling. Mishandling these batteries may lead to explosions, fire, smoke and a risk of poisoning.
1. Charging

1-1 Charging voltage :
These batteries should charged with a charger that is specifically designed for LiPo cells, charging at above 4.25V per cell , which is the absolute maximum voltage. It must be strictly prohibited as higher voltage causes permanent damage to the cells and causes fires.
1-2 Charging current:
LiPo batteries can be charged at a rate of max. 2C (1C corresponds to the cell capacity). Charging with higher current than recommended may cause damage to cell performance and safety features deeply, and can lead to heat generation or leakage.
1-3 Charging temperature:
These batteries shall be charged within a range of temperature 0C to 50C. If these batteries are charged at the temperature out of the specified range, leakage, heat generation or other damage may be caused.

2-1 Discharging current :
LiPo batteries can be discharged at continuous currents of around 30C (with 70~80% capacity). High discharging current may reduce the discharging capacity remarkably or cause over heating.

2-2 Discharging temperature :
These batteries shall be discharged within a range of -10 degree C to 60 degree C.
At a temperature of -10 degree C or less, the battery will show a significant decrease in discharge capacity. The battery temperature during the discharging should not exceed 70 degree C.
2-3 Over-discharging
Normally, LiPo batteries start to discharge at 4.2V and terminate at a cut-off voltage of 3.0V. Discharging these batteries to a point below 2.5V per cell causes permanent damage to the cells, and this must be avoided.

3. Shipment
Lithium cells and batteries must be shipped in 30% charged state for safety reasons.


Maybe some already know some of this but maybe not.

another note. When checkpoint says it's not safe to charge lipo batteries any higher than 90-95 degrees it had me thinking the batteries would be ok. Gueuss not. It was a single cell lipo when the battery reached 5.00 volts it was only 70% Farenhight. I was charging a at 5.5 volts. I looked for signs of the the battey swelling and sure enough witin 10 seconds the battery began to bulg up. I quickly opened my bulcked door and tossed it in the sand. The battery did not blow up.

paceracer,

You didn't have a HEAT issue, you had a OVER VOLTAGE issue.

a 3.7v LIPO should be charged to a M A X of 4.20v +/- .02v

You can stuff a LOT of voltage in w/o getting them HOT the way a NiMh would get...and because LIPOS don't peak like round cells - they will just charge and charge until they GET REALLY Big and/or go POOOF!

And make sure you had the charger on the Lipo Setting Greg.....
I know how you like to forget little stuff like that...:hat:

If you want to end all this batt - motor problem. Run a 3 cell with 5.5 brushless. No need to heat pack or worry if the next guy has more HP.

If you want to end all this batt - motor problem.

...I don't want to end what we have NOW! Personally...I'm LOVIN' IT!

Thanks


NOVAK
ORION/KOKAM


These two companies helped get the ball ROLLING on B/L and LIPO -- since when several others have jumped in the pool to take a few laps too!~ s'all good!

it seems that one big mis conception about lipos..

you can charge a lipo at 12 amps and it will not get hot while charging...

you can charge them at 3 amps and they will not get hot while charging

if you do not charge them correctly and over charge them they will swell and in an extreme over charge case catch on fire...no explosions though.


if you take a lipo pack that has been correctly charged and place it in a heating pad for an hour and it get's above 180 deg than you will have serious problems...


charging correctly (no overcharging) will never result in a lipo getting warm or hot..

that is the negative about lipo's (from a hard core racers perspective)..they drop in IR and voltage goes up when heated...if they would get warm when charging we would not have this discussion at all....the chemicals that make up a lipo seem to get excited when heated..but they do not get hot when charged correctly.

That is why I cant understand why on earth would any track operater or promoter in thier right mind allow heating. At first I was against voltage tech in weekly racing didnt think that it would be needed but after Gregs deal I guess to prevent any incidents from someone being forgetful it may be necasary now albeit it should't need to be that way but I guess there are those thant cant follow instructions and those that just have to try to walk that fine line just so they can pick up that extra voltage.

And some wondered why lipo sacks should be required.....................I guess we know why now.

i say bring on the lithion ion cells and lets start matching.lol

After reading this tread I agree with Jim M..why throw caution to the wind. Let be safe. Let race to have fun..

Chris