While at the Snowbirds and not racing I was able to walk around and observe racers heating there Lipos. Some seem to have a routine figured out and pretty much everyone was doing it. To me this is an extra step racers have to worry about plus it's hurting cycle life of the packs and can cause cell swelling as the bottom or top cells are getting heated more than the center cells.

There is enough things to worry about at an RC race that racers shouldn't have to worry about putting there packs in a heating pad or other heating device.

This can be easily teched as it should be part of overcharge voltage check. I know some will say that cases can be sprayed to cool down and the cells inside will stay warm/hot but it would be fairly easy to catch any cheaters. If I were a race directer I would through the guy who cheats out of the event as cheaters should not have a second chance.

So lets try to keep racing a bit more simple and stop the heating non sense.

holy smokes!!!!!!

i just started a thread on this subject!

you are awesome!!!!!

some of the local florida knuckleheads now feel we need to heat lipos at the club level?

why why why

we ruin all that is good in the hobby for the sake of a tenth!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you danny for a great post!

p.s. i want to have children with you!

ahahhahahahhahah

now that's a thought I can do without.....


Antonio

BTW - I agree with Danny, heating lipos should be as illegal as overcharging is!
Katfish, I also agree with you.

How much difference does it really make?

Is it .05, .1, .2, .5 sec?

What if you have a pack that you are heating, does it then always need to be heated in order for the chemicals to react properly? Or does it not matter as far as the pack is concerned?

Does heating make an OK pack a great pack?

Does heating make a great pack and exceptional pack?

How many cycles is a non-heated pack good for? How much life does heating really take off of the life?

Yup, I found heating to be a pain and kind of silly.

I'm wondering how much difference racers noticed? I didn't heat for practice and didn't see much difference in lap times. For the last round my pack was 109.8*, thought I was pretty slick, car wasn't any faster.

It shouldn't be about if it makes a difference or not it should be about an extra step that racers shouldn't have to deal with.

RC racers like to copy each other so if one guy goes out and is fast with a heated pack everyone will want to try it.

who cares

But, it is ALL about if it makes a difference. It is RACING. Every guy out there is looking for that edge, the next thing that will give him the advantage to beat the guy next to him.

Look at all the steps that used to be taken just to try to get pack to last a month.

The guys that want to win do not care about how many steps it takes to go fast.

The question is, is heating making you faster?

danny i understand what you are saying but it was one of your guys who posted about heating packs and what you could do to lipo so go back and tell your team to quit doing things your preachin about:cool:

I never endorsed heating but I should as it will make packs crap out faster.

I can't control what racers do and if you guys feel it's fun to heat up packs then keep doing it.

But, it is ALL about if it makes a difference. It is RACING. Every guy out there is looking for that edge, the next thing that will give him the advantage to beat the guy next to him.

Look at all the steps that used to be taken just to try to get pack to last a month.

The guys that want to win do not care about how many steps it takes to go fast.

The question is, is heating making you faster?


If everyone heats there packs how can it be an advantage ?

As far as making a difference or not I can't tell you as I race offroad and use half throttle with a 7.5 and 5000 Lipo so there is no need for me to heat a pack.

I'm sure someone can tell us the difference as it must of been tested.

If everyone heats there packs how can it be an advantage ?



If everyone is doing it, then no there is not an advantage over the other guy, but if it is FASTER, then it is an advantage over that ever elusive lower lap time.

I am not campaigning either for or against, just trying to gather knowledge.

What happens when the outdoor season comes up? How will pack temps be regulated? Is it going to be +/- ambient temp at the track? So the guy in the trailer can either heat his pack or set it outside. Now this being said, it there an advantage to heating a pack "controlled" vs. being in a hotter environment and the pack being hotter due to the surrounding air?

Oops, I lost the top to the can of worms, maybe Katf1sh has it.

I think + 5 or + 10 degrees above ambient temp would be the way to go.

Out doors would be the same. Racers pitting in trailers with AC would have to put there packs outside which is not a big deal.

I am with you Danny, The big shocker for some should be that at the Snowbirds my best run the pack was not heated due to me running soo many classes and dealing with alot of customer support I forgot. I didn't do it the rest of the weekend. I figured at that point that it just wasn't needed. It was more important that you went out at max voltage (8.44) than the heat of the pack. Kill the issue now before it gets too out of hand. I have seen enough flames.

I spent a couple of days trying different temps on the dyno , when the pack is lower than 80 deg. it shows loss of power ,but 80 to 130 so little change , maybe if you had a on board telemitry system it might show a diff. ,voltage is it and timing ,meaning discharge and charge back up just before you go out , shows best power

Kat is heating in the "HEAT" of Florida really an issue? I know it helps the battery when it's 40 degrees outside but when it's 80+ outside I really don't think it will be an issue anybody is worried about.

A plus Danny:thumbsup: He is basically telling you to buy less of his stuff, he is looking out for the industry! he could easily said heat em up boys and laughed all the way to the bank.

your the man

I am for no heating...As long as everyone follows. We had a no heating rule, but some were doing it. So as word got out that we were getting beat by heated packs everyone started doing it....Guess what? The same people won.

I agree that we should not heat packs (or cool motors for that matter), but once one person is allowed to do it? I think this falls on the race directors to enforce this needed rule.

Heating batteries at a club race is pathetic. Heating batteries in general should be against the rules.

Racers should go up to the race director or track owner and tell them that heating should not be legal. If a racer gets caught heating he should be thrown out of that days race.

I'm thinking of going to this years Ovalmasters and race and I don't want to worry about heating my packs even though I have access to unlimited amounts of packs. LOL

Working on the cars should be the only thing we have to do. BL and Lipos have made it less of a hassle and we should take full benefit of this.

How cold is too cold to be fully charging Lipos? 20 deg, 30deg, 50deg

I know you can harm them if you fully charge them when they are too cold but what is the number?

Heating pads nah Kat farting did this

Danny you have a PM

....So what's the real issue here?

SAFETY? -- How many MORE Lipos have had an issue due to HEATING than NiMh's did with what ever methods were used for charging?

HASSLE? -- Is HEATING a LIPO, for those who choose to do it...MORE of a hassle than ANYTHING ever done to get performance from a NiMh?

SHORTER Battery Life? -- It's funny, cause we run those CHEAP "low performance" lipos, and some of the guys choose to HEAT them ALL year long. One of our guys bought 2 USED packs, and they OUTPERFORM the ones he used ALL YEAR LONG that were Never heated or cycled! hmmm

UNFAIR ADVANTAGE? -- it's FUNNY, cause ya never hear about it being an unfair advantage if a guy has a $1,000 worth of HAND PICKED NiMn's in his pit, and all the best MATCHING Equipment in his garage, and the HIGH DOLLAR Charging equipment. (Oh wait..you did hear it, but nobody wanted to listen) BESIDES -- instead of needing several 100 dollars worth of equipment now...you can "ENHANCE" your performance with a $10.00 warming pad....and if EVERYONE Is doing it - there is NO advantage!

On the issue of SAFTEY -- unless I'm sadly mistaken, the VAST Majority of incidents with LIPO in the past 1 1/2 years have come from USER ERROR. The MAJORITY of those where charging related issues with guys using NON-LIPO Settings, (on purpose, and on accident) Putting the batteries in an OVER CHARGE situation.

Some of the other issues have been DEAD SHORTS causing the battery to Get HOT quick!

So..what's the real issue at hand here? (I'm wondering....do SOME brands respond MORE to being heated??)

NOTE: Personally, I am neither for, nor against HEATING LIPO Batteries. I've done both - heating is MORE work than I chose to do...but so is changing a worn out tire! (Inside joke for those who know me)

I think this falls on the race directors to enforce this needed rule.


Yeah...and a race director needs MORE crap to worry about on race day!!! ESPECIALLY at Club Level events!!!

Way to go Danny ! :)

How cold is too cold to be fully charging Lipos? 20 deg, 30deg, 50deg

I know you can harm them if you fully charge them when they are too cold but what is the number?


Here is what our supplier has to say about cold pack charging.

I have a racer asking me what temp is to cold to charge a Lipo pack. Many are saying charging cool/cold packs will hurt them.


this is not true. Just if the pack is cold, the charging result won't be that good at the first couple cycles
it won't hurt the pack. too hot will hurt the pack

So it will be fine if you charge a pack at 5 degrees Celsius ?

yes, no harm

the cold temp. only deactivate the chemical inside the cell


So once the pack is in normal temp it will be back to normal ?
yes, just cycle it couple times, it will be back to normal

Joe, for me, the issue is the Hassle. Heating is a pain in the ass (and does nothing positive for the hobby).
Don't bother trying to compare the hassle of Nimh to Lipo because the whole intention of lipo is to drop it in and go, just like brushless.

All this talk about heating and no one even seems to know (or care) if it makes a difference. The impression I'm getting is everyone just assumes it helps.
So far there are 2 votes for "heating doesn't make a difference"!
I'm not looking for "Ya it's worth a tenth"....something more concrete would be nice! (like someone that forgot to heat at the birds and actually went slower).

If it doesn't make a difference, it will be a LOT easier to convince everyone not to heat and they aren't getting beat by a heated pack (if their rules don't allow it)! That's all. But that's a silly question I guess.

it's settled than...NO HEATING!

i promise if it is ilegal to heat at my local track i will use that extra time i have not baby sitting my heating pad to hunt down cheaters and get them thrown out for the day!
you know i will have fun doing it! he he

no heat
no heat
no heat


btw danny the oval masters i'm sure will allow heating...peer pressure is a beotch


btw in the end there is one battery expert on this thread...that is danny..

HE IS TELLING US FLAT OUT IT'S NOT GOOD TO HEAT A LIPO PACK...

YET THE VULTURES THAT WE ARE THINK WE KNOW BETTER AND NEED TO HEAT THEM NO MATTER WHAT OR WHO TELLS US IT'S A BAD THING!

WHAT IN THE HELL IS WRONG WITH US?

danny orion says there battery works best at 100 deg. and i never get mine higher than 110 so please tell me what i'm doing that is so wrong.orion pushed lipo before you did and thay did plenty of research on them before they put out there recomendations on lipo charging and care.:cool:

I am for no heating...

I agree that we should not heat packs (or cool motors for that matter

I agree with this...

But for the "fear factor",
so far, the hairiest clip I've seen is the flame show of
spraying a motor.. because it involved humans holding
the fireball... at least briefly.

So for the moment, I think if it's "possible" for a lipo
swell/fire, even though UN-likely, it is just as possible
for a flame show... albeit UN-likely..
So why aren't we erring on the side of caution in both
instances?

If NOBODY heated or sprayed, then it would be the same
if EVERYBODY heated and sprayed...

Why do we continue to make things harder for oursleves?? :drunk:

I will not start a dispute about what others claim who knows what. I can only speak about what I know and have been told by the engineers.

If heating your Orion packs works for you than go for it. It's still an extra step that is needed to worry about and most racers aren't using Orion packs.

I personally have heated some of our packs up to 180F with no issues. This was done for testing purposes and in an oven where the heat is spread equally amongst the cells.

SHORTER Battery Life?[/b] -- It's funny, cause we run those CHEAP "low performance" lipos, and some of the guys choose to HEAT them ALL year long. One of our guys bought 2 USED packs, and they OUTPERFORM the ones he used ALL YEAR LONG that were Never heated or cycled! hmmm!!

I'm the guy That bought them
I use a Orion Charger That Never Over Charged my Batteries Now I bought these ones Knowing that have been using Heat on them. And BAm they are over charging by about .05-.08 every time now This Isn't an Advantage? Is in my books
Hum Makes me want to start heating

Ask yourself, and your fellow racers this.

If a number doesn't make a difference, than WHY do guys go out of their way to TALK DOWN about a product because it has LOWER numbers?

Why will guys spend a fortune for the BEST number (Run time and VOLTAGE) battery they can buy?

Guys would FLIP OUT if they found out a new 40c pack had an average voltage .15volts HIGHER than a .28c pack, and would cross the earth barefoot to GET THAT pack 2 days before the snowbirds or a national event.

So, nobody can tell me if you have a pack at 68 degree room temp that tests at a 20 amp discharge of 7.23 volts, and by simply wrapping that pack in a $10.00 warmer for 20 minutes and bringing the temp to 103 degrees(AND DOING NOTHING ELSE) the average voltage at 20 amps jumps up to 7.44 volts.

Will you see this on the track? CAREFUL HOW YOU ANSWER if you are in the business of SELLING Batteries....cause a NO ANSWER would mean EVERYTHING ever said about a product being 'Better than the other guys' is FRAUD!

I agree with you Danny. I also know the guys at Thunder Power feel the same way.

So lets try to keep racing a bit more simple and stop the heating non sense.

A better statement has yet to be made. Do we really want to have to be buying the heating pad of the month?

-E

I'm the guy That bought them
I use a Orion Charger That Never Over Charged my Batteries Now I bought these ones Knowing that have been using Heat on them. And BAm they are over charging by about .05-.08 every time now This Isn't an Advantage? Is in my books
Hum Makes me want to start heating

Uh if they are overcharging then your charger is bad or connections have resistance. The charger determines the final charge voltage NOT the pack.

my thunder power pack I ran in the mod main went thru tech at 90deg & ran fine.

Heating batteries at a club race is pathetic. Heating batteries in general should be against the rules.

EXACTLY!!! heating pads are for acking muscles! :thumbsup:

danny orion says there battery works best at 100 deg. and i never get mine higher than 110 so please tell me what i'm doing that is so wrong.orion pushed lipo before you did and thay did plenty of research on them before they put out there recomendations on lipo charging and care.:cool:


Are you saying that since Orion was first to market, we should just defer to them because they know best? :confused:
Our batteries work best at 130, but that doesn't make it the best thing for racing. With the push for simplicity and ease of maintenence (BL and lipo), heating batteries is contrary to the direction racing is headed. There is no hidden agenda. It is simply an added step that adds complexity, reduces cycle life, and increases the chance of swelling.

:thumbsup:

Of course no heat.

IMHO the problem isn't that racers are heating up the lipo packs for performance (real benefit or not). The problem is that the track owners/racing organisations don't structure themselve to prevent racers from doing it.
...

Steve.

Our batteries work best at 130,

Remember you Said it


I dont think he meant it that way, He was Saying Orion Said that. Thats all

A better statement has yet to be made. Do we really want to have to be buying the heating pad of the month?

-E
Why not we have everything else _____of the Month

my thunder power pack I ran in the mod main went thru tech at 90deg & ran fine.

So were my 17.5 packs. In between 90-95*. I used a heating pad so that no matter what the ambient was, my packs were always the same temperature every time on the track (ambient at my home track has dropped to the 50* mark before on test days).

My pad will easily take them over 130* but I don't want to have to keep getting packs all the time because I killed them in a club race.


Adam

what do you do bout the tracks that are 30-60 degrees inside? there is a possibility of shock right? why can't there just be a 110 deg limit and everybody find something else to complain about? besides somebody will buy up some of those gfx's for sale and start cycling before charging,again. with the heat pad it makes it easier than cycling packs constantly. Set a reasonable limit like 110-120 and forget about it! setting a rule like ur proposing, danny, could open up a can of rules. I think the simple solution is 110-120 degree limit and forget about the complexities. just so ya know i i put my battery in the pad for a while before i start any cycling. an oven is no more effective than the heating pad because an oven like a heating pad heats from outside-in. ever stick ur finger in a caserol dish to see if it's still cold in the middle?

Remember you Said it


I dont think he meant it that way, He was Saying Orion Said that. Thats all

I said it to illustrate my point, not as an endorsement to heat our packs. :freak:
Racers look to companies like SMC for advice on charging and battery maintenance every day. Danny is giving advice that can vastly increase pack life and decrease the chances of failure. I think we owe it to the consumer to recommend the safest and most cost effective methods of battery care.

im not the fastest guy at my track but i havnt noticed a difference on the track from when i heat the pack or not. been just as fast with 75 as i am at 95. probly just me though. and i dont want extra steps

...ok so you are at the BIG Club Race....

You haven't been heating your packs all day...

You have been running the SMC 40c LIPO, and it's got you solidly qualified in 3rd spot, but you are .75 off TQ after the 2nd round.

The class has 42 entries, and first through 16th is less than 1.5 seconds apart...

Do you HEAT your battery, looking for that SMALL Edge to get you that .75 seconds off your best run.

Do you go BUY a Brand New Thunder Power 40c battery, looking for that little edge...

Do you go BUY 2 more motors, rip the rotors out, check them, check the numbers on the motor and scramble trying to get a motor that will put out just 3-400 more rpm and just a touch more power?

Do YOU have the "HAVE TO WIN" bug that bad??? (There ARE guys who DO - and if they can't WIN - in their mind they are FAILURES and will do WHAT EVER IT TAKES!)

Now YOU deal with them!



(I'm so glad we don't have to deal with these issues....aren't you Doug? LOL)

maybe we should stop putting oil in our shocks to make life a lil easier too.:thumbsup:

I think you guys are taking the motor freezing to far by saying it's hazardous...You gotta remember, how often to you connect a battery, make an arch, and spray a 180* motor at the same time??

As for the heating, if it does or doesn't make a difference, who cares....It's not like Heating pads aren't available to the general public, everyone has the option.....You know, not like the Nimh's for Team guys a couple years ago that know one else could get there hands on...:rolleyes:

NO HEATING...:thumbsup:

Lipo charging is simple, lets keep it that way. It really is one less step we all will have to worry about.