Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite—a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.[1] Alternatively, the term elitism may be used to describe a situation in which power is concentrated in the hands of the elite. Those opposed to elitism are considered supporters of anti-elitism, populism or the political theory of pluralism. Elite theory is the sociological or political science analysis of elite influence in society - elite theorists regard pluralism as an utopian ideal.

Elitism may also refer to situations in which an elite individual assumes special privileges and responsibilities in the hope that this arrangement will benefit humanity or themselves. At times, elitism is closely related to social class and what sociologists call social stratification. Members of the upper classes are sometimes, though inaccurately, known as the social elite. The term elitism is also sometimes used to denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others. This form of elitism may be described as discrimination.



Ok, I know I am going to get trashed on this one! However, I think I am seeing some of the problems more clearly. Now Please take in mind we are planning a concrete oval track for 2009 and have been doing some research and general discovery in order to make sure we do it right. In this discovery, I cannot believe some of the crap i am learning.

So let me bring you up to date on why I say this. Those of you that have read my posts in the past know that I came back to Rc in 2008 and was involved in it from 1981 to lets say 1993 in the past.

I have read the ROAR agruments, I have read how the BRL has somewhat standardized Oval (at least Carpet) and recently a friend and I wanted to try dirt oval. I planned to try dirt oval so that I could get some insight into the scene and understand it better for potentially building a DO track at the facility we plan to open.

After Looking into cars & committing to buy one. I was informed that the SMC 3200 28c BRL legal batts are not a legal batt in the Dirt oval scene which uses the SMC 3200 28c Dirt oval "spec Pack" ( a sticker that is installed). This really made me think the downfall of the industry has been this goal to achieve elitism from the other forms of racing within the sport. You may argue this, and I understand you. You want to feel that you form of R/C racing is the truest form of scale racing. Great.

that brings me back to Roar! They Really Screwed Up, or maybe the racers Screwed Up! Once was a time when the parts and supplies you had at least allowed you to run multiple form of scaled racing! I mean I ran dirt oval when a big race came, I ran offroad, 1/12th 1/10 scale on road and oval. I just wanted to race everyone and do my best. I had to buy specific cars true. But the general equipment was the same. Stock Mod 6 cell "latest batts that were legal" ROAR should have listened, learned and adapted to make sure they governed the sport better!

Coming back to the sport after being involved in motocross and seeing how this is structured, makes us laugh, CRY and most of all say [edited i improper language] ! I thought the AMA Was Screwed up. Now I believe they have a very simple approach.

Imagine the same conditions in motocross (values not intended)

You go buy a Yamaha yz250 motocross bike from Dealer A and Dealer A says this bike is legal to race at any A type tracks, Then you want to try Flat tracking and the flat track say oh no you bought that Yamaha yz250 at Dealer A and we only deal with bikes from Dealer B, So that Yamaha yx250motocross bike is not legal to race.

Come on???!!! Do you think the AMA Motocross scene would pull 3000-5000+ at a national event if this was the case???? I do not think so. Let’s see R/C pulls 400+ at a big event. There may be a reason for that. And i think i was being fair with the 400+ entries as a comparison.

So maybe the problem is that the Racer want to feel special , the Carpet Oval Guys want their thing, The Dirt oval guys want their thing, the Off Road Guys want their thing, The Carpet on road guys wants their thing....... and nitro and so on.

I think out of all of them the OFF Road Scene is the one that make the most sense, it is also the largest. Isnt it?

Oh, crap I must have forgotten that these are all R/C Scaled-racing cars!

I think the problem is that none of R/C racers feels that they should make rules together, so that the average Joe r/C'er can 'tuse the investment he has made to the industry as a stepping-stone to try other things. I mean what is next? ESC's with Sticker that is only legal if purchased from the organizations that is holding the event?

Maybe the Organizations of R/C should try to organize some sense out of all the different form of Racing in R/C. and Roar should have been a better Organization that listened and worked for their members to bring unity to the sport! I beleive that if that had happened the sport would be larger today then it being smaller today then it was in the past! That is based off seeing the spearation and smaller number I have witness at local events. Big events I guess still bring in the racers. But i feel that is due to the fact the rules are post well in advance.

Sonny from the BRL, I commend you for allowing the racers to USE the SMC Dirt oval spec 3200 28c batts at your events. It shows that you are not trying to excelude to profit, instead expand and organize. :thumbsup:


Ok bash away, I hope that when we get the track up and running that we can make sense of all these different versions of the same thing. And I hope that it brings more people to race.

I guess the days of having all different cars, and even competive slot cars in the garage are gone. That is how I grew Up. Boy I am getting old!


Oh and one other thing, Why is it that when i hear people talk to potential new comers it instantly goes into braggin mode, on how much money they spend???? That blows me away. I am not sure if you hear it or even listen for it, but it is a perfect way to scare away folks.

be at track owner not a friend -- set the rules--- make EVERYONE go by them-- sponsored or not -- watch the scenes at other tracks-- dont fall victim of the class of the month scam -- talk with vendors and sponsors and local clubs or civic groups -- talk to the people who make signs and banners they can help you out alot -- most of all pay attention to your core racers -- people that are there week in and week out -- they will be more than happy to help out when times are lean ---IF YOU DISCOVER PROBLEMS OR TROUBLE RACERS PUT A STOP TO IT THEN NOT LATER ---MOST OF ALL REMEMBER ITS RC CARS NOT THE NEXTELL CUP( THATS A JOKE STILL SHOULD BE GRAND NATIONAL STOCK CAR)

be at track owner not a friend -- set the rules--- make EVERYONE go by them-- sponsored or not -- watch the scenes at other tracks-- dont fall victim of the class of the month scam -- talk with vendors and sponsors and local clubs or civic groups -- talk to the people who make signs and banners they can help you out alot -- most of all pay attention to your core racers -- people that are there week in and week out -- they will be more than happy to help out when times are lean ---IF YOU DISCOVER PROBLEMS OR TROUBLE RACERS PUT A STOP TO IT THEN NOT LATER ---MOST OF ALL REMEMBER ITS RC CARS NOT THE NEXTELL CUP( THATS A JOKE STILL SHOULD BE GRAND NATIONAL STOCK CAR)

Nextel sprint , US BAIL OUT What, They still race???? HAHA

Sorry for venting, It just seems everywhere I turn coming back in there is a hurdle, someone disagrees. Etc ETC. That is why i said ROAR Messed UP, there once was a time when life was simple speach! LOL

I didnt walk up hill to school both ways with out shoes though!

I've been lurking here for a couple of months. Raced RC about a year or so back in the 90s, got out of it because of the cost. But now that I'm back in Northern NY, where winters are 6 months long, RC is starting to sound appealing again...

But I agree, every track has its own set of rules that make it very difficult.

What got me out of RC -- and I think what keeps people from getting into RC in the first place or gets them to leave -- are two very simple issues:

1. How much does it cost to get a car?

2. How much does it cost to be competitive?

I have a car, an old BoLink Legend from 15 years ago. It's worthless here because there are no divisions locally where it is legal.

I can go buy an old pancar for maybe $100-150 if I'd be happy running around last every week -- but I'd still have to go out and buy the right batteries, the right motor, etc, so it really is going to cost me quite a bit more than that just to get on the track.

If I want to be at least semi-competitive -- ie, being able to "race" someone, even the next-to-last guy, as opposed to being a rolling traffic jam, I'm going to need to spend quite a bit more.

The cost to be "competitive," to be able to have fun and race, and the constant bickering over rules from track to track drives a lot of people away from RC.

I think a lot of tracks would be well-served to have a "Bracket Bangers" division for both newbies and guys like me who are not serious racers but just want to have fun without spending a lot of money.

The idea is "run what ya brung": Run whatever you have lying around. Any car or truck, any battery, motor, tires. Any body too..but seriously, a REAL racer is going to run a EDM or SK body because those are the only real racecars. :)

There will probably need to be some simple rules on bumper reinforcements because people will start "armoring up" their cars if you don't limit them.

So how do you make this a "division" where people can race competitively?

A few very simple rules:

1. Banger-style. Somewhat inspired by "full contact" UK Stockcar racing, contact is allowed. If someone tries to pass you, you may block them. If someone is in your way, move them out of the way.

If you go against the direction of racing or just criss-cross the track to deliberately cause wrecks, you're out. But as long as you're "going forward," contact with other cars is legal.

This is still a race...just an action-packed brawl.

2. Flip a coin to determine race direction as the field is being assembled on the track. Heads, the race is "normal" (go fast, turn left). Tails, the race is clockwise (go fast, turn right).

This eliminates a lot of setup issues to make it easier.

Starting positions are determined by random draw.

3. Everyone runs. Break the fields up into heats of 10 or fewer cars but the mains are "Everyone starts". Obviously, if you get more than two-dozen cars and start running into frequency issues, go to the B and C main system with bumpups.

4. This is a fun division. No emphasis on TQ, starting spots, etc. No points are kept (because of the bracket rule).

If you don't do well this week, there's always next week.

5. The Bracket (this is the key to making this work). Drivers can see how many laps they run in their heats. They then choose their "Bracket" (maximum number of laps) for the feature event and inform scoring of their choice.

If they run more laps than their bracket choice in the main, they are disqualified. Any car that does not finish the entire race is disqualified.

At the finish, cars are scored in the order they cross the finish line and based on how close they came to their bracket limit.

All cars that finish on their bracket lap are scored in order they cross the finish line, followed by all cars one lap below their bracket limit in order they cross the finish line, etc.

Bracket scoring sounds complicated but it really is easy.

WHY THIS CAN WORK. There's no incentive to go out and buy new batteries, new motors, new tires all the time. You are racing against yourself, trying to drive consistently and smoothly in a very challenging environment. You beat the other guys by being consistent and by slowing them down.

It is something newcomers can have fun with -- as they get better, they can increase their bracket, but they also know that they can be competitive from the very first time they show up to race. People can use any RC equipment they have lying around -- you can buy an old, used car from a neighbor or friend and just show up and race without having to deal with the "what do I need to buy to be legal" problems that stop so many people from racing.

And come on, it's going to be a boatload of fun to watch!!

There are already a number of tracks that have "break out" rules. Run more then a number of laps, you are DQed, much the same idea.

sounds like bracket racing!!!

IMHO, in the end, it was the racers that messed it up. For many years there was just two classes in oval, Stock and Mod.

There racers complained that too many motors were being released, so ROAR set rules that motors could only be approved a couple times a year. Racers then complained that new batteries were coming out too many times a year, so ROAR set rules when batteries would be approved.

Then oval racers wanted something in-between and started 19T, then bitched and moaned because there were no ROAR rules for it. ROAR set some rules, many didn’t like them so made other 19T rules.

Then racers said the cars are too fast, so ROAR setup 4-cell rules. Some didn’t like that so they still raced 6-cell.

I could go on with a number of these when we get into brushless and LiPo. In the end, carpet/paved oval is a unique situation because of the high traction surfaces it runs on.

Oh yeah. I want to run alky or nitro in my yz250 at the races, will the AMA allow that?

>>sounds like bracket racing!!!

Yes, but for ovals.

This is proposed as an addition to the multitude of 3-4 car divisions most tracks run...but here it is stated up front that this division is geared towards encouraging 15-20 car mains.

Most breakout rules are at a specific speed per lap, so there is still an incentive to get lots of goodies to get as close to the breakout as you can without going under.

The idea behind this is a way to encourage newbies or to let casual racers use what you already own instead of having to go out and buy a lot of new stuff.

I see *lots* and lots of track discussions about "what rules do we run?" Lots of comments about having to buy new motors or batteries or tires to run at a different track. Lots of new divisions that start with plenty of promise and then fold within weeks once the rules get opened up.

This is an attempt to give racers an option where they know that they don't need to get in a "trick part arms race" to have some fun on the track.

Just a different option.

IMHO, in the end, it was the racers that messed it up. For many years there was just two classes in oval, Stock and Mod.

There racers complained that too many motors were being released, so ROAR set rules that motors could only be approved a couple times a year. Racers then complained that new batteries were coming out too many times a year, so ROAR set rules when batteries would be approved.

Then oval racers wanted something in-between and started 19T, then bitched and moaned because there were no ROAR rules for it. ROAR set some rules, many didn’t like them so made other 19T rules.

Then racers said the cars are too fast, so ROAR setup 4-cell rules. Some didn’t like that so they still raced 6-cell.

I could go on with a number of these when we get into brushless and LiPo. In the end, carpet/paved oval is a unique situation because of the high traction surfaces it runs on.

Oh yeah. I want to run alky or nitro in my yz250 at the races, will the AMA allow that?

Hank, Yes there is no fuel rule. the fast guys mostly use the mid range priced stuff and the mid pack guys pay 80.00 a gallon...... unless you are talking about what is on TV then they use what is delivered to the race by VP fuel at no charge. just to make sure it is a level playing

Really, AMA allows ANY fuel mixture? What about "fuelgate" a couple of years ago? What about the MGT3 class that HAS to use Sunoco 260?

Really, AMA allows ANY fuel mixture? What about "fuelgate" a couple of years ago? What about the MGT3 class that HAS to use Sunoco 260?

Like I said if it is a Big race the AMA supplies fuel, but local "non pro" is no fuel restrictions.

Tracks need to get together with each other in their area, so they all have the same rules and classes. And the local hobby stores stock the most popular parts for the classes that were agreed on by the tracks. To many tracks have their own classes that don't run anywhere else. Hard for a racer to go to other tracks and race if every track in the area has it's own rules and classes. My 2 cents.

yea, that would be nice..... But I speak on personal experience the tracks do not want to work together either. been down that road.

never mind

racers make tracks, it is not the other way around.... Funny if someone brings up a problem it is complaining. If someone makes a standardized rules people complain........

I guess we are never happy!

Is there a condensed version of your original post that makes your point or question more clear???

What are the specific r/c classes that you race that have different rules? Are you upset because you want to race r/c motorcycles?

I agree with Hank about "IMHO, in the end, it was the racers that messed it up".
Just look back a page, one guy wants to race backwards to fix racing "so there aren't set up issues".

Let's argue about which directions we should race now...........

yes R/c motorcycles, you got the point of the post!

:thumbsup:

Point being

cant we find a standard and stick to it? Again my post is because we were gather infomation to make sure we didnt exclude anyone.

just forget it.

the racers want a differnt class for X reasons
The tracks make different rules and classes to make the racers happy
the manufactures love the fact there is a class of the week.

The losers are those new comers who try to undersand the complex political ad financial crap.

There is nothing united about R/C racing that is for sure!

Backwards road coarse ovals whatever it takes.

It's difficult to have a national standard right now because technology is moving fast in the r/c world with lipo.

Rules are very regional, here we are running 1 cell Lipo/Brushless, but an hour away a track only runs 4 cell/brushed, while another track 3 hours away runs 2 cell Lipo/Brushless.

It will settle down and be much better next season, in my opinion.

I don't really see newcomers being effected by a not having a standard set of rules...they generally just race in the entry level class at 1 or 2 tracks close to them.

I like the fact that you are thinking of newcomers and are thinking of ways to get/keep racers. :thumbsup:

Tommy, without those new comers the sports just dry up! I love this sport, I am doing all i can to get involved.

Manufacturing, Tracks, Assisting in Rules promoting.

But at the end of the day, I asked my self sometimes, why every single time i turn one way I hear another way.

it is confusing for me, first of all because i come from the old school of RC. And i have been away from it to see how important a united sport is.

We are going to Run BRL rules at the track. But again I do not want to exclude anyone. But you really open a can of worms when you ask for racers ideas.

Like I said if it is a Big race the AMA supplies fuel, but local "non pro" is no fuel restrictions.


What? Different rules for different tracks and events?!?!?! Isn''t that what the OP was whining about in the first post?

Tommy, without those new comers the sports just dry up!

Thanks for the news flash, Columbo.

Trying to standardize classes for beginners is dumb, that's my opinion.

Like TommyGun says the entry level racer isn't concerned by what tracks are doing which aren't close to him. He goes by his local rules.

Take a look at full size stock car racing at the local level. A Junkyard Warior at Thunder Road in Barre VT might not be legal for the ''Sport Compact'' class at Autodrome Ste-Eustache near Montreal. But do they make a big case out if it? However once you move up to the Late Models, you can race Thunder Road, as well as about 10 to 20 other tracks in the Northeast (White Mountain, Riverside NH, Oxford, Kawartha in Fraserville ONT, Capital City in Ottawa, the Castrol Series which runs all over the Province of Quebec, A.C.T. which runs all over New England, etc etc...).

In my opinion, Single Cell is the best thing that has happed to Oval because you can take that pack and elaborate ANY kind of beginner or intermediate class that best suits your market.

Standardization should be made for the ELITE ***classes*** only, or any classes that pull racers interested in traveling to other tracks. I think that'll keep things simple for ''national'' governing bodies.

Trying to standardize classes for beginners is dumb, that's my opinion.

Like TommyGun says the entry level racer isn't concerned by what tracks are doing which aren't close to him. He goes by his local rules.

Take a look at full size stock car racing at the local level. A Junkyard Warior at Thunder Road in Barre VT might not be legal for the ''Sport Compact'' class at Autodrome Ste-Eustache near Montreal. But do they make a big case out if it? However once you move up to the Late Models, you can race Thunder Road, as well as about 10 to 20 other tracks in the Northeast (White Mountain, Riverside NH, Oxford, Kawartha in Fraserville ONT, Capital City in Ottawa, the Castrol Series which runs all over the Province of Quebec, A.C.T. which runs all over New England, etc etc...).

In my opinion, Single Cell is the best thing that has happed to Oval because you can take that pack and elaborate ANY kind of beginner or intermediate class that best suits your market.

Standardization should be made for the ELITE ***classes*** only, or any classes that pull racers interested in traveling to other tracks. I think that'll keep things simple for ''national'' governing bodies.


Well said I think the BRL is on the right track i just wish the walls would be removed for cross sport racing like DO etc.

ROAR did what for approving batteries? PLEASE, there have ALWAYS been multiple approvals on batteries and motors.

ROAR and the OVAL racers are to blame, ROAR for not keeping up and the racers for abandoning ROAR in disgust and not getting involved.

The demise in racing is several fold.

REASON NUMBER ONE
TOO MANY CLASSES!!!!!!

I have said this before, saying it now and will say it again I am sure. It has gotten to a point of heaven forbid we upset little Johnny because he has to run with some guys that have more time in than him. He can not and will not win right of the bat so let us make a class that he can compete in.

This have PROVEN to be an ABSOLUTE FAILURE.

Disagree? REALLY? Look back at the Oval events during the time of STOCK and MODIFIED only. 400+ racers and you were darn lucky just to get in. You know where the guys ran who could not run up front? Guess. They ran IN THE C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K and so on mains!!!

VIDEO GAMES

Today people expect instant results yesterday. And that dad-gum reset button, not doing to well? Hit reset and try again. There is no reset in a race, get your crap together or get out run, end of story.

Look, these are just TOY CARS, but it is still racing and it takes a certain "type" of person that wants to compete. It takes a person who is willing to keep up with the technology, latest products, set-ups and driving skill to run up front. Since when has it been a bad thing to be willing to work hard to achieve a goal? Why must there be a "class" for every Tom Dick and Harry that "does not want to work on his car?" We do not need to make a new class for those guys that are content to sling thier stuff on the shelf after the race, pick it up on the way to the track next wekk and throw it on the track no matter the result. There is already a class for them, it is called the B,C or D main.

Oh yeah, I am tired of hearing that "Racer X is fast because he spends more money that me". TOO FRIGGIN BAD!! It is NOT ALWAYS the $$ spent, sometimes, YES. But most of the time it is the time in preperation and the expertise that the driver has. But if it really upsets you that Racer X is outspending you, go spend some more and see if that really is the reason. Something tells me that you will not be as fast as him and just have a lighter wallet.


Outlaw44 mad a good point. Make the "Classes" for the Nationals allow the Local tracks to "adjust" them for the local crowd as needed. This was and has been done since I started racing. Even at the "Local" level you can split it up into novice and experience if the number of racers will allow. If not, well they get to run with the hotshots and better learn fast.

Flame away of you like, but I have been there in the time of the 400+ racers and it ain't nothing like it now. Also I would bet that most of you who will disagree with were not around in the Oval Era that I am speaking of.

Well there are some things that since my return I beleive are great!

1) LIPO's wow what a huge savings for the racers (if you do not have to buy one of the same for each event, Refer to my statement about Dirtoval SMC's)
2) Brushless Motors Again WOW I left the industry before Coolers and dipping and putting the cherry on top at local events (we did it at big races, but local heck no)

These things are huge advancement that cannot be discredited as huge benefits.

What I do not like is the division in the entire sport. oval guys in one corner, dirt oval guys in another, onroad there and off road over there. That I guess is what I cant understand, and DO not want to accept and why I guess I started this Elitism thread. We are all here to have a common goal, Expand the sport, make it simple and most of all make it affordable. You do that by uniting not dividing.. Not by trying to be an elitist,

That is the whole reason for this post, Since we proposed opening this track I received alot of emails. If we listen and tried to make everyone happy we would have 50 racers and 8 classes.

1c 13.5
1c 10.5
4 c nimh 13.5
21.5 lipo
21.5 lipo sportsman
17.5 Lipo
and other that didnt make any sense but some were nimh spec,s etc.

Car, Truck, SK all could follow these rules I assume too which would add even more classes.


I basically would like to see

1c 13.5 Beginner Truck or Car ( oval masters were about .2 off the 21.5 I beleive)
2c 21.5 Intermediate Car
2c 17.5 Pro CAR

Kind of like in my days

Novice Stock
Stock
Mod

Just a Simple Approach!

Now if you could do this accross the entire sport ( on road, off road, dirt and carpet concrete oval) then the manufactures would concentrate more on being priced competitive with good products and due to higher manufacturing totals which is a direct benefit to the racers new old pro and wall bashers because it would lower the cost to the end users.

? how many mah do you need to finish a 5 minute race. Why not draw the line at that number and let the price come down...... Soon when the MAH double which i beleive the "rule in technology is every 2 year speed and performance now doubles" 5000 today 2 years from now 10,000.

So Please Someone Draw the line, and let prices come down around you. that is unless you need the 10,000 MAH 80c in two years ( Joke)

ROAR did what for approving batteries? PLEASE, there have ALWAYS been multiple approvals on batteries and motors.

ROAR and the OVAL racers are to blame, ROAR for not keeping up and the racers for abandoning ROAR in disgust and not getting involved.

The demise in racing is several fold.

REASON NUMBER ONE
TOO MANY CLASSES!!!!!!

I have said this before, saying it now and will say it again I am sure. It has gotten to a point of heaven forbid we upset little Johnny because he has to run with some guys that have more time in than him. He can not and will not win right of the bat so let us make a class that he can compete in.

This have PROVEN to be an ABSOLUTE FAILURE.

Disagree? REALLY? Look back at the Oval events during the time of STOCK and MODIFIED only. 400+ racers and you were darn lucky just to get in. You know where the guys ran who could not run up front? Guess. They ran IN THE C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K and so on mains!!!

VIDEO GAMES

Today people expect instant results yesterday. And that dad-gum reset button, not doing to well? Hit reset and try again. There is no reset in a race, get your crap together or get out run, end of story.

Look, these are just TOY CARS, but it is still racing and it takes a certain "type" of person that wants to compete. It takes a person who is willing to keep up with the technology, latest products, set-ups and driving skill to run up front. Since when has it been a bad thing to be willing to work hard to achieve a goal? Why must there be a "class" for every Tom Dick and Harry that "does not want to work on his car?" We do not need to make a new class for those guys that are content to sling thier stuff on the shelf after the race, pick it up on the way to the track next wekk and throw it on the track no matter the result. There is already a class for them, it is called the B,C or D main.

Oh yeah, I am tired of hearing that "Racer X is fast because he spends more money that me". TOO FRIGGIN BAD!! It is NOT ALWAYS the $$ spent, sometimes, YES. But most of the time it is the time in preperation and the expertise that the driver has. But if it really upsets you that Racer X is outspending you, go spend some more and see if that really is the reason. Something tells me that you will not be as fast as him and just have a lighter wallet.


Outlaw44 mad a good point. Make the "Classes" for the Nationals allow the Local tracks to "adjust" them for the local crowd as needed. This was and has been done since I started racing. Even at the "Local" level you can split it up into novice and experience if the number of racers will allow. If not, well they get to run with the hotshots and better learn fast.

Flame away of you like, but I have been there in the time of the 400+ racers and it ain't nothing like it now. Also I would bet that most of you who will disagree with were not around in the Oval Era that I am speaking of.

Please Tell my son that, he would like the reset button for everything!!!!

What the hell do you think the DODC rules are trying to do? Everyone who races Dirt Oval and only Dirt Oval under one set of unified rules. Lets face it there aren't many of us Dirt oval racers looking to run our Dirt Oval Cars on carpet, concrete, blacktop, or fly over a jump on an offroad track. Oh and by the way those batteries you spoke highly of are locked in for at least 1 to 2 years. The same goes for motors, bodies etc. Many tracks have embraced DODC which is great, some have not and that is their choice as well and they are entitled to make that choice, but the ultimate goal is to simplify everything for Dirt Oval racers. If you don't like it then I have 2 letters for you, "TS."

Now here is a little backround on me. I raced carpet for 19 of my 24 years in this hobby and the last 5 on dirt have been some of the most competitive and fun that I can remember. I like to think I was fairly competitive on carpet back in the day locally and I had no aspirations to go any further on carpet than that. I was in it for the fun of the hobby back then rather than blood sport. Nationals were just never that important to me. Thats not to say I wouldn't catch a big race at K/N Speedway CT. from time to time, but I knew before I left the driveway that I wasn't going to have a shot at an A main, maybe the C,D, or E and I was fine with that.

Back on point. Now the last time I checked I believe that Dirt Oval has two of the largest events in all of R/C today. The Custom Works US Open Wheel Challenge and the February Freeze both of which draw between 350 and 450 cars per race and those races are only seperated by two months. I can't tell you the last time I have seen two races that close together draw that many racers, if ever. Off Road, On Road, Carpet or otherwise. I'll ask you this question. Why is it that the USOWC virtually sold out in just a matter of days (I think 3 or 4) this year as compared to several weeks last year? I can't help but think DODC had alot to do with it. I applaud anyone for wanting to make things more simplified for us racers. So my hat is off to the DODC rules makers and the tracks that support it. Sonny at BRL, since he seems to have carved out a niche that works for them as well.

As for local racing you have to "SPEC" out some type of rules package that works for your area based on the type of racers are in that area. If you have other tracks nearby then I would suggest attempting to work with them on having a package that will benefit you both. I can tell you that it has been tried before in our area with limited success. Now, with the advent of 1 cell LIPO a clean sheet of paper is just sitting there waiting for track owners to pick up the phone, or fire off an e-mail to their fellow promoters and attempt to write up and unify the racers in their geographic area, maybe 30 minutes to 2 hours apart maximum with one set of rules. But that will be for the 2009-2010 season, at least for carpet racers that is. In any case I wish you luck in your attempt to change the state of the hobby nationally. You might want to fix your local scene first. If you do try to go with choice 1 you might want to pack a couple of meals for the return trip down that mountain, by the way it's Mount Everest. Well I've blathered on long enough.

Good Luck & Thanks for reading,
John :thumbsup:

Disagree? REALLY? Look back at the Oval events during the time of STOCK and MODIFIED only. 400+ racers and you were darn lucky just to get in. You know where the guys ran who could not run up front? Guess. They ran IN THE C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K and so on mains!!!


While you are looking, look a little further!

NOT 20 different CHASSIS choices
WIDE CARS - (that could also be quickly and easily changed to ON-ROAD (Multi-Use)
Cars were 25-30 % (or MORE) SLOWER than Todays cars, and MUCH easier to drive.
TRACKS were OUTSIDE in areas where R/C RACING could be SEEN, or in shopping centers.
OVAL RACING was COVERED by MAGAZINES and was popular amonst the LARGEST MFG's, so it was a BIG DEAL for MFG's to show up at MANY races around the country.

FEW CHOICES did NOT alwaYS make for better racing...it just made for LARGE CLASSES, (IT WAS awesome at LARGE Events...but frustrated some at smaller, or local events, cause they didn't understand the structure or rules...SO THINGS STARTED CHANGING)

I do not think that a larger number of chassis manufacturers make for a lower turnout today.

.
Multi use chassis, maybe had a little to do with it but very little. The National events I attended were in the Narrow Car/LTO days drawing 400 racers.

Cars were slower back then sure but technology marches forward. We have more efficient motors/esc's now and bigger and better batteries. But really the Oval chassis has not really changed in the last 15 years. Then last real innovation was the Associated front end, since then nothing really. Just nor holes in which to move stuff around a little.
I do think that it is more difficult to go fast these days. I think some of it has to do with tires. Back in the day we had two maybe three choices, Blue, Green and maybe another, Delta had some Black and Gold, but they were rare, around here anyway. When caps firs came out there were 3 compounds Red, Gold, Silver. Now look at it, how many foam compounds are there? 15-20 per manufacturer? WOW that is a ton of choices, still not saying this is bad either, just different.

The track deal. I 100% agree!! I have had this very discussion with my local track, that we should hold one or two "EXPOs" a year in a parking lot beside on a busy road somewhere. I remember having spectators several deep watching our races, but we the racer demanded "specialized" tracks so we could race, well we got it. The only places that you could afford to put one of these tracks was out in the sticks and nobody could see us anymore.

The coverage and manufacturer support did used to be there. Most of the Oval Mfgs still do show up to the races. As far as coverage, that could be handled by some of us at the race. We all have digital cameras that can take picture good enough to be published (just take tons of them, you are bound to get a few good ones ;) ) and bang out a few words to send with them. The magazine has editors to clean up the wording. Just get them the meat of the story.

The comment you quited was aimed at the National level events. the next to last paragraph of my post was this.

Outlaw44 mad a good point. Make the "Classes" for the Nationals allow the Local tracks to "adjust" them for the local crowd as needed. This was and has been done since I started racing. Even at the "Local" level you can split it up into novice and experience if the number of racers will allow. If not, well they get to run with the hotshots and better learn fast.

When we had 4 carpet tracks around here and two other clubs holding races we ran under ROAR rules. But there were vary rarely any modified racers, it was 99% stock. And yes the RACING was better. Everybody knew the rules and classes. And yes we would split up the "stock" class, we called it "Novice" and "Stock". The only difference was experience. The rules were exactly the same for both classes and the "racers" would get together and decide when it was time for a "novice" to make the move.

There is/was nothing keeping a local scene from Spec'ing out a class. If that is what will work locally but I would advise against making several classes. Here again all you will do is water down the competition. I do not understand how it was hard to understand the classes when there was stock 6-cell and modified 6-cell. Other than the motor distinction, everythig else was the same.

SonnyB, who runs the BRL, is also on the rules board of the DODC. I know you have a problem about the batteries. Carpet, asphalt and dirt oval racing are very different. Spec racing is more expensive than open racing and requires specialized parts for the class. It dosn't mater if it is dirt, carpet or asphalt.

I basically would like to see

1c 13.5 Beginner Truck or Car ( oval masters were about .2 off the 21.5 I beleive)
2c 21.5 Intermediate Car
2c 17.5 Pro CAR

Now if you could do this accross the entire sport ( on road, off road, dirt and carpet concrete oval)


You can't use those classes in off-road as they would be too slow. Your "Pro Car" would be the stock class in off-road. Off-road is currently

Stock - 27t/17.5 6-cell NiMh or 2S LiPo
pro Stock - 19t/13.5 6-cell NiMh or 2S LiPo
Mod - whatever you can handle 6-cell NiMh or 2S LiPo

And you have no whining about who is faster!

You can't use those classes in off-road as they would be too slow. Your "Pro Car" would be the stock class in off-road. Off-road is currently

Stock - 27t/17.5 6-cell NiMh or 2S LiPo
pro Stock - 19t/13.5 6-cell NiMh or 2S LiPo
Mod - whatever you can handle 6-cell NiMh or 2S LiPo

And you have no whining about who is faster!

Good point Hank and I should have been more clear concerning the off road. We have plans at looking at an off-road track in addition to the concrete oval and dirt oval. what everyone doesn’t see is the amount of emails asking for this and asking for that. So that is why i posted this. From one racers perspective they want one thing and IU am sure it is money motivated. But the point is

You cant feel like your the elite in a small industry it just divides it up in chunks.

You cant always get want you want when it comes to classes, but Dirt Oval and on- Road oval should at least try to work together especially since some of the same people are involved and a major synergy between them.

And I have been hearing the " it will clam down once the industry catches up" since the 1400 red cells came out. Therefore, I am sure we will have that argument forever. I left after the 1700scr's came out, But I am sure it was the same old broken record since then.

Again, Do not be elitist, Work together, Find rules that cross different types of racing the best you can, Allow the manufactures, Track and Clubs the ability to concentrate on those to build the class sizes, and the manfactures to invest in larger production runs to reduce thier costs and make racing more affordable.

In the RC manufactures defense i have a ad from tekin 1992. Speed Controllers are basically the same price as they were then. So prices have come down.

I do not think that a larger number of chassis manufacturers make for a lower turnout today.

ScottH,

I'm not so much thinking just OVAL chassis's... I'm talking R/C in general.

There was a time it seemed like 90% of the racers (at least out here) ran RC10's

Turnouts for SOME types of RC Racing are low *(ie OVAL @ many places) in other places it OFFROAR or ONROAD that can't get a crowd. But in general, I think there are 10 - 20 TIMES more people with R/C Cars NOW than in 1990.

I find guys I raced with back in the late 80's and early 90's, that I hadn't seen for years...we'll see each other and we're each suprised cause we're still racing R/C Cars 20 some odd years later, but racing totally different things. I just ran into the guy who got me started at his local dirt oval track in '85 the other day. (In our local hobby shop) He build a DIRT OVAL and OFFROAD track in his back yard and has about 20 friends who race there weekly (By invite only) THE Track is awesome! HUGE DO and OFF-ROAD for 1/8th scale stuff. I also found out that 1/2 of the guys racing there....I race with 20 years ago that I thought had moved on years ago. (Some of them HAD, but came back)

A lot of the guys who race with ME locally are also guys I raced with back then (when virtually all of us ran rc10's on Dirt Oval, Off Road, Parking Lot OVAL and Road Course) , most of whom had stopped racing about the time the expensive 2wd Custom Works cars came out on the Dirt Oval. Several of whom I got into a cheap/used pan car and got them 'Re-Hooked'

I don't just work on getting "OVAL" racers, I work on getting NEW R/C Racers..then once they race - try to get them into OVAL cars too.

Nice post Joe, but..we need to go back a little further. :) When we started R/C racing (1969) , road course and Can-Am bodies were the in thing. Oval..what was that? I can research but it was 1972 @ Indianapolis, IN. (ROAR NATS) that oval was first ran as a "National Event" and it was ran at totally different location than the "ever popular" road course events. Actually being an " Elitest" back in the day, I know of very few that even went over to watch this class. :( We were all star struck to see Morrisey, Curtis, Hustings, Thorp, and the like race on the on road course. Might I also mention it was ran in a strip mall store parking lot of the day, :rolleyes:? Between then the the mid 80's..oval was a redneck thing and very few tracks even ran it, paved or dirt.

Oval only became popular in the late 80's and early 90's somewhat progressing from there until TC cars took the limelight. Some of us can remember when we bought an RC rag it was all oval..then slowly, month after month it was less oval and more TC cars. More "RTR's and less about oval ,until we are at today..guess we made the full circle and with hope Oval will return to its glory!

1. Banger-style. Somewhat inspired by "full contact" UK Stockcar racing, contact is allowed. If someone tries to pass you, you may block them. If someone is in your way, move them out of the way.

If you go against the direction of racing or just criss-cross the track to deliberately cause wrecks, you're out. But as long as you're "going forward," contact with other cars is legal.

This is still a race...just an action-packed brawl.
:freak: Keep it in the walmart parking lot please. Your complaining about costs and now we are destroying our cars? You described the mini t class here, just get one of them

Yea, not sure if my heart can take that kind of racing. I get upset over a front axle being bent.

Scotth is right in all his post! We are elite we will not conform we will change we will go faster we are OVAl! And for those in the lower mains go run snackbar and put more cheese on my nacho!