This is just an observation - nothing more, nothing less...

Not one year ago, many people were ready to burn certain racers at the stake for "altering" the timing on their motors at the Snowbirds. This is not to be confused with the inductance scandal.

Now, you can purchase an ESC for more than $200 and for another $30, you can accomplish the same thing legally and with more accuracy.

Maybe technology has surpassed the limit of the average racer's understanding (I'm sure of it), but why is it O.K. for a mfg to make money hand over fist by offering what some considered cheating in a pretty little plastic box?

If I create "boost" with my soldering iron and a dremel - I'm a cheater.

If I'm on a team and promoting "boost" that people pay my sponsor for, I'm a hero and helping the hobby.

So, my question is...do racing ethics exist, or are people just blinded by what they are told and jump on the bandwagon? Seems there are only a few left that see the big picture of oval and how money drives/hurts it.

Ethics and Racing, sure they exist. Much like they do in Politics, let's just hope more so.

The timing issue you speak of, I believe if we look back it was said that there would be a way to advance the timing in the ESC's and no way to detect it if it were done. Low and behold that day is here.

The only way to govern it is by the rulebook. And let's face it, we are RACING here, be it a hobby or not, it is still RACING. If the rules do not address it, by either limiting it or dissallowing it how can anyone say it is illegal or cheating? They cannot.

I do not know how you can ask the ESC manufacturers to not explore new technologies and advances.

In the end I think it lies in the hands of us, the racers. We all know what the rules are and the spirit in which they are written and we KNOW when we are pushing the intent of the rules.

do i think my cars are faster because of my speed control? no not really.. do i like the fact that my speedo is smaller and lighter? yep.
i didnt feel that the timing was the biggest issue of last year anyway.....

with the "boost" i have been able to play with gearing a little more. more timing equals less tourqe. less gear and more heat.

Yeah,

I don't think the timing deal is a huge advantage...maybe up front.

But, the point isn't whether or not that speedo is an advantage or not...it was only my example. The point is why people consider some things cheating if it's done using your brain and your hands, but not cheating if you can buy it over the counter...it just doesn't make sense to me.

............

O.K. - once again, people are only reading what they want...so, let me change the wording:

Why is mechanically altering a motor to achieve the same boost offered in an over the counter product considered cheating?

I believe it was because it was a practice only known to a few. Now that ESCs and even motors can easily alter timing, making it easily available to everyone, there is no perceived advantage to a select few.

Its really two seperate issues. At that time you already had ESC's with different timing between the TC and GTB. The BRL rules were written with the intent that the motors were sacred, and you weren't to be "using your brain" and screwing with them. I'd still be pissed today if I found guys at a race using BRL motor rules that were dismantling them and "improving them mechanically."
Ethics would be why some people decided to try playing in the gray area to begin with.

I couldn't agree more Cbear3.

I know it is racing, but I guess I don't understand why people continue to love the grey area, as most can see all it does is cause hard feelings, I guess only when they get caught.

If I win and I have done something that I think could be potentially considered cheating, it is a pretty empty win.

Wow...you guys went completely the other way, I love it.

So, if I buy my timing in an ESC...It's O.K. right?

If I don't want to spend $500 to replace my GTB's and can get my 45 degrees of timing for free you guys have a problem with it, huh...interesting.

... why people consider some things cheating if it's done using your brain and your hands, but not cheating if you can buy it over the counter...it just doesn't make sense to me.
I completely agree with you. I've been called a cheater for using my brain too.

I believe it was because it was a practice only known to a few. Now that ESCs and even motors can easily alter timing, making it easily available to everyone, there is no perceived advantage to a select few.
But why is "known only to a few" reason to call it cheating?

And why is it only motor knowledge that leads to being called a cheater? Plenty of guys get advantage by chassis tuning secrets that not everyone knows without being called cheaters.

There are rules. If you don't race by the rules, what good are the rules? Then its a free for all and you can keep that racing for yourself.

How about this one; If those same guys had used additives in their Jack the Gripper that week to get more grip what would we think of them?

There are rules. If you don't race by the rules, what good are the rules? Then its a free for all and you can keep that racing for yourself.

How about this one; If those same guys had used additives in their Jack the Gripper that week to get more grip what would we think of them?


Alright, now you're biting the worm...

So, where are all the people that bitched about the motors when it came time to make rules regarding ESC's? Everyone wanted to open up the rules.

Now, I see the same people that screamed from mountain tops about the 'birds issues becoming advocates for the timing in their sponsor's speedos.

The bottomline is a point of diminishing returns is reached with timing, so who cares how you get there. People fear what they don't understand, but as long as their is a rule in place that allows them to purchase the same thing that they frowned upon they're all for it.

Plenty of guys get advantage by chassis tuning secrets that not everyone knows without being called cheaters.

Because we don't run spec chassis, or spec tires. We don't say you have to run a certain springs combination. If it was a box stock spec class of Mini Late Models or Slashes or whatever, then you'd be called a cheater for changing the chassis setup.

At the Snowbirds last year BRL rules were in place for the Brushless oval classes, and BRL rules basically said that if it wasn't mentioned as allowed in the rules, it was considered illegal. If there was an issue with that you take it to the race director for clarification.
In the particular instance of the Snowbirds that year, I know people went to Mike for clarification and he ruled in a different way than Sonny has for the BRL series. I don't know when they went to Mike, I don't even know if the guys who were originally doing it were the ones that went to him, but I know that it had come up and been ruled OK at least before the mains, probably at least before saturdays racing. So it wasn't cheating, because Mike said so. Or at least it wasn't cheating after Mike said so. And really thats where all the conversation should end.

Those of us who've run the BRL since the beginning think it goes against the intent of the series and the rules, and whether Mike said it was ok or not we have a different idea of whats acceptable. Nobody should have been burnt at the stake over it though.

Alright, now you're biting the worm...

So, where are all the people that bitched about the motors when it came time to make rules regarding ESC's? Everyone wanted to open up the rules.

Now, I see the same people that screamed from mountain tops about the 'birds issues becoming advocates for the timing in their sponsor's speedos.

The bottomline is a point of diminishing returns is reached with timing, so who cares how you get there. People fear what they don't understand, but as long as their is a rule in place that allows them to purchase the same thing that they frowned upon they're all for it.

Personally, I own a Tekin, and its in my backup car. :rolleyes: I never wanted open ESC rules, and it was painfully obvious that every manufacturer wouldn't use the same electronic timing advance so if there was a benefit, there would be a superior speedo. But the masses begged and pleaded and now we have it, and I still see the same guys deciding not to come because their motors haven't been legallized too.

The problem a year ago with adding mechanical timing by disassembly is that it was against the spirit of the rules, and pretty much everybody knew that. The continued problem is that the idea for using Novak only motors was to keep things simple, and not have to be motor builders like in the brushed days, and not worry about motor of the week. Its not specifically about timing, its about modifying the motor in any way. Because now I'm going to crack open your motor and see you've changed it, I have to suspect that anything inside could have been changed.

You'll never see me advocate taking a soldering iron to anything other than the ABC posts on a brushless motor for our series in this area. The reason is simply that it eliminates the idea of any black magic going on, and people can continue to realize they're being beaten by better driving and chassis setup (which I can stroll over to your table and look at before my eyes).

The continued problem is that the idea for using Novak only motors was to keep things simple, and not have to be motor builders like in the brushed days, and not worry about motor of the week. Its not specifically about timing, its about modifying the motor in any way. Because now I'm going to crack open your motor and see you've changed it, I have to suspect that anything inside could have been changed.



Great arguments...and for the record, I'm not for/against motor/ESC timing. I simply wanted to point out how crazy the mindset of racers is. You're right...if you've opened up a motor, expect people to assume the worst. Like watching struggling racers see the guy next to him with a PC hooked up to his ESC - expect him to think that's why he's gettng beat. The open motor rules are already lighting fires...so how come everytime we try to keep things simple for the better of the hobby, people try to fix what isn't broke? :) And then complain that turnout is getting worse. DODC rules for carpet racing would be a great solution. :thumbsup:


BTW...I do just fine with my GTB's and have no intent on replacing them. Hobbytalk's been dull with all the holiday stuff going on.

BTW...I do just fine with my GTB's and have no intent on replacing them. Hobbytalk's been dull with all the holiday stuff going on.

Haha... thanks! Nothing like stirring the pot :jest:

Great arguments...and for the record, I'm not for/against motor/ESC timing. I simply wanted to point out how crazy the mindset of racers is. You're right...if you've opened up a motor, expect people to assume the worst. Like watching struggling racers see the guy next to him with a PC hooked up to his ESC - expect him to think that's why he's gettng beat. The open motor rules are already lighting fires...so how come everytime we try to keep things simple for the better of the hobby, people try to fix what isn't broke? :) And then complain that turnout is getting worse. DODC rules for carpet racing would be a great solution. :thumbsup:


BTW...I do just fine with my GTB's and have no intent on replacing them. Hobbytalk's been dull with all the holiday stuff going on.

Yep, I'm one of very few people in the office this week and very little's going on so I have plenty of time to play :)

The problem a year ago with adding mechanical timing by disassembly is that it was against the spirit of the rules, and pretty much everybody knew that. The continued problem is that the idea for using Novak only motors was to keep things simple, and not have to be motor builders like in the brushed days, and not worry about motor of the week. Its not specifically about timing, its about modifying the motor in any way. Because now I'm going to crack open your motor and see you've changed it, I have to suspect that anything inside could have been changed.

Very well said! :thumbsup:

Jason- Come play in the dirt:hat:
Merry Christmas!!:thumbsup:

(edited)... Like watching struggling racers see the guy next to him with a PC hooked up to his ESC - expect him to think that's why he's gettng beat. ......And then complain that turnout is getting worse....

Why shouldn't he?
Imagine what it looks like to a guy walking into a track
for the first time.... sees a guy working on a 18" car,
using a laptop with a whole bunch of complicated stuff on it.


BTW...I do just fine with my GTB's and have no intent on replacing them.

... :thumbsup:

well i have a lap top at the track....
and with that i help anyone that i can with and with out it not just on the speed control

well i have a lap top at the track....
and with that i help anyone that i can with and with out it not just on the speed control

Most of us that know you, are aware of that...
My comment was about the guy who one day says,
"I think I'll go check that place out"...

He goes in there, sees the endless tables of equipment,
and (used to be) dynos, laptops etc...
Right off the bat, he's thinking "Holy $hit...."

~20 years ago, when I first walked into a track,
I saw anywhere from 60-80 guys sitting at card tables,
with ALL of their gear on it, with room to spare to work
on their cars.... I had an RC10 with a wedge body,
a cheepie charger, a headlight discharger,
and 3 1200 packs...
I was gold!! Got my two sons involved, so there were
three of us racing, and I didn't even have to take out
a second on the house to do it...:thumbsup:
Now I see a dozen.... on a good day.
Gotta be something to it...

well i have a lap top at the track....
and with that i help anyone that i can with and with out it not just on the speed control

Hey Al i think our buddy Dale has more issues then the speedo. he needs a bit more setup help! lol i wish i was more helpful. you seen my dremel work :)

joe, how that thing is as fast as it is boggles my mind!!!!!

as far as set up help he should contact some of the LE boys for that like maybe METAL.. aka brian deel.......:wave:

this is super easy jason


the rules at the birds in 2008 were BRL rules and you were not allowed to tamper with the motors internals..

the rules for the 2008 and 2009 were any roar legal esc.......

now of mike would have stuck with brl rules from 2007 you would only have been allowed to use the lrp and novak esc's..IF YOU WERE A TEKIN TEAM DRIVER AND YOU RAN THAT 3000 ESC YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE OL' DQ...

the "RULES" SAY NO TAMPERING WITH THE MOTORS

THOSE SAME "RULES" STATE THE TEKIN ESC IS LEGAL TO RUN..

that is the black and white answer...

IN ORDER TO NOT BE CALLED A CHEATER...YOU MUST FOLLOW THE RULES...

the grey areas are...
the rules said the inductance had to be 21 per pole...so your motor was 28 on the meter so it had "room" to improve..so you take a wind or two off and it is now a 21....that is not legal...but the guy with 10,000 dollars who bought 1,000's of novak motors and rotors or just had team connections may have had a 21 on each pole and a 1350 rotor..he is within the rules but has a clear HP advantage...that sucks.....

If it's not disallowed, then it's not illegal or cheating. Don't whine about it. That is the world of racing. It happens in 1:1 at the top ranks in NHRA and in NASCAR, all the time.

Sometimes it's using your brain, other times it's blatant cheating. One particular race I can remember where Richard Petty won, it was found his engine was I think 140 cubes oversized. He lost all the winnings and everything from the race, but got to keep the "win" as part of his record, which is what he wanted. More recently about 5 or 6 years ago, someone was caught with a K&N Airfilter in his racecar, which is against the rules.

For years, though, some of the NASCAR teams, had their cars exactly in spec. However due to certain ways of building the spoilers, they "flexed" and at higher speeds, they flex down and allowed a significant reduction in drag giving an "unfair" advantage. Was it ethical? Probably not. Was it cheating? No, it wasn't against the rules. Pretty soon everyone was doing it and NASCAR mandated a rule requiring the spoiler braces that are now commonplace.

Bottom line? Ingenuity and inteligence shouldn't be punished.

Just as with fullsize racing, driving skills aren't going to mean squat if your car isn't competitive. Or the fastest car on the track means diddly, if your driving skills aren't up to snuff.

The point is, if it isn't against the rules, don't call it cheating. It may be unethical by your standards, but it isn't cheating. If you want to whien about it that much, sell your stuff, and enter the spec car races instead.

Not trying to flame anyone here, or say that anyone is whining, but racing is racing. Period. If yer not actually breaking the rules, then you aren't cheating. Rules need to change with technology, in order to keep it from being he with the most money, wins.

well i have a lap top at the track....


Super Troopers! :thumbsup:

If it's not disallowed, then it's not illegal or cheating. Don't whine about it. That is the world of racing. It happens in 1:1 at the top ranks in NHRA and in NASCAR, all the time.

Sometimes it's using your brain, other times it's blatant cheating. One particular race I can remember where Richard Petty won, it was found his engine was I think 140 cubes oversized. He lost all the winnings and everything from the race, but got to keep the "win" as part of his record, which is what he wanted. More recently about 5 or 6 years ago, someone was caught with a K&N Airfilter in his racecar, which is against the rules.

For years, though, some of the NASCAR teams, had their cars exactly in spec. However due to certain ways of building the spoilers, they "flexed" and at higher speeds, they flex down and allowed a significant reduction in drag giving an "unfair" advantage. Was it ethical? Probably not. Was it cheating? No, it wasn't against the rules. Pretty soon everyone was doing it and NASCAR mandated a rule requiring the spoiler braces that are now commonplace.

Bottom line? Ingenuity and inteligence shouldn't be punished.

Just as with fullsize racing, driving skills aren't going to mean squat if your car isn't competitive. Or the fastest car on the track means diddly, if your driving skills aren't up to snuff.

The point is, if it isn't against the rules, don't call it cheating. It may be unethical by your standards, but it isn't cheating. If you want to whien about it that much, sell your stuff, and enter the spec car races instead.

Not trying to flame anyone here, or say that anyone is whining, but racing is racing. Period. If yer not actually breaking the rules, then you aren't cheating. Rules need to change with technology, in order to keep it from being he with the most money, wins.

WTF :confused:

If it's not disallowed, then it's not illegal or cheating. Don't whine about it.

Guess you have never raced in ANY SCCA/ARRC competitions then.

Just got a win due to a ruling, so really think about it.

Gray area in the rules was converted to black and white ruling, Mosers lost out.

If it's not disallowed, then it's not illegal or cheating. Don't whine about it. That is the world of racing. It happens in 1:1 at the top ranks in NHRA and in NASCAR, all the time.

Sometimes it's using your brain, other times it's blatant cheating. One particular race I can remember where Richard Petty won, it was found his engine was I think 140 cubes oversized. He lost all the winnings and everything from the race, but got to keep the "win" as part of his record, which is what he wanted. More recently about 5 or 6 years ago, someone was caught with a K&N Airfilter in his racecar, which is against the rules.

For years, though, some of the NASCAR teams, had their cars exactly in spec. However due to certain ways of building the spoilers, they "flexed" and at higher speeds, they flex down and allowed a significant reduction in drag giving an "unfair" advantage. Was it ethical? Probably not. Was it cheating? No, it wasn't against the rules. Pretty soon everyone was doing it and NASCAR mandated a rule requiring the spoiler braces that are now commonplace.

Bottom line? Ingenuity and inteligence shouldn't be punished.

Just as with fullsize racing, driving skills aren't going to mean squat if your car isn't competitive. Or the fastest car on the track means diddly, if your driving skills aren't up to snuff.

The point is, if it isn't against the rules, don't call it cheating. It may be unethical by your standards, but it isn't cheating. If you want to whien about it that much, sell your stuff, and enter the spec car races instead.

Not trying to flame anyone here, or say that anyone is whining, but racing is racing. Period. If yer not actually breaking the rules, then you aren't cheating. Rules need to change with technology, in order to keep it from being he with the most money, wins.

Jason, I think you found the problem- Some guys think they're in NASCAR!:rolleyes:

joe, how that thing is as fast as it is boggles my mind!!!!!

as far as set up help he should contact some of the LE boys for that like maybe METAL.. aka brian deel.......:wave:
Just two weeks back in, and I am getting faster. Took my own dremel to the chassis this week for a little more flex, I just think I need track time and it will come. Thanks Al and Joe see you at the track.

It may be unethical by your standards, but it isn't cheating.

If yer not actually breaking the rules, then you aren't cheating.

From reading these two sentences I would say you will probaly run for public office some day ..... unfortunatly you may win.

Jason I'm on your side of thinking here but until I get beat week after week by that speedo I'll stick with my orange stuff.

I think jason has made some pretty darn good points.

What gets me is when a track operater makes a rule that only allows certain things like motors esc batteries etc its always the same poeple that bitch and moan that they cant run what they want.
Basicly what the tracks are trying to do is give racers a fealing of equality although in most cases it realy has nothing to do with the equipment, but nonetheless its a way to make some racers believe that if he has to run the same stuff as everyone else then he has a chance and they dont feel compelled to buy new gear unecasarily when a new esc comes out or a new motor is released just to keep up.

I personaly applaud track operaters that do this yeah it pisses off a few racers but it makes more racers happy and helps the sport.

Technoligy is great but it can also be a big kick in the ass to those that cant afford to buy new gear when something new comes out that may or may not be better in some shape or form.

It killed on-road car racing localy IMO it just got to damn expensive with some companies releasing a new car every 6 mo's and parts support for the older cars all but disapear making it almost a necesity to run a newer car. Thankfully that hasnt happened to Oval YET.
Bottom line is I just dont see WHY we have to allow the latest and greatest just to appease the sponsored racers and racers with deep pockets.

you know what is funny? lol the LRP has ad timing boost and adjustable timing for has years. everybody just always ran it in profile 8. the lrp has different timing in different profiles.

Every time I change my lrp profile, it doesn't do a freakin thing. I don't care what anyone says. It's a HOAX!
lmao

Hate to say it but that "HOAX" won me several races.....lmao

All you got to do is find the sweet spot on your motor for gearing. my novak over a year old is still setting records.

All you got to do is find the sweet spot on your motor for gearing. my novak over a year old is still setting records.
:thumbsup:

gearing is a overrated
possible hoax

I have done some testing with the LRP TC (different profiles) and Losi Xcelorin (PC Software) and will say using the same motor "untampered" (13.5), there was really no advantages when increasing timing through the speedo. It is give and take, if you increase the timing then you'll run in a higher heat range which we all know is bad, so you have to deduct gearing to compensate. The only noticeable differences were when the esc's were programmed to the extreme linear modes, they felt very soft but top speed was the same.

It really is about finding the right gear and watching temps w/ brushless. Then its all about corner speed, oval is not a drag race!

Very interesting discussion guys. Although I do not race oval I really enjoy looking through this section from time to time to learn more of the technical aspects of chassis and equipment since oval really pushes these two aspects.

For me, the most interesting aspect of this discussion is the question about what really drives our hobby's growth? The "standard" lines are reduced cost and complexity along with increased realism. Of course there is something to be said for at least the first two when we consider that just about every "new" form of rc racing that explodes in popularity initially has at its core reduced cost and reduced complexity.

Unfortunately we also know that they are never able to maintain it, in part due to the creation of a monopoly that would result for the initial manufacture of the segment. For example,Kyosho would be the only manufacture that made mini-z type cars because (except for price and quality) there would be no incentive for anyone to buy another brand. Increased features and technology give other manufactures the needed advantage to overcome Kyosho's first to market advantage but those increased features and technology push the price and complexity aspects as well.

With that said we must also be honest about the scientifically documented facts that our nation's cultural ideals and habits have changed and that these affect our hobby/sport as well. The last 2-3 generations only know a world full of "instant" gratification (my understanding is that generations are now down to 10yrs instead of the 20-40yrs of the previous two+ centuries). Unfortunately instant gratification is one of the death knolls for our type of hobby because it can require a slower, often frustrating process in order to become proficient. When you add in another factor of our nation's recent generations, which is a low tolerance for failure, you get a serious 1-2 punch to our hobby.

The way that these generations get around these two issues of impatience and work ethic is through networking and....money. In short our nation has become a nation which seeks to buy success or attain it through inside networking. Add to these two points the general trend for our younger generations to be wowed by everything new and their desire to pick up and put down every endeavor based upon convenience and you now have three killer issues that will continue to threaten our hobby/sport.

These three beliefs/attitudes kill local tracks because they can't survive on inconsistent, fickle desire to show up when it is totally convenient. These beliefs drive up costs because people want success handed to them via their wallets. Unfortunately when the cost get to be too much then their fickleness kicks in and they look for something new to entertain them...for a time. These beliefs even change the sportsmanship and pleasantness of the racing environment as people think that their monetary investments "entitle" them to win or make that "A". Their fear of failure only feeds their excuses to stay home or get out of the hobby/sport because they will themselves to believe that the only way they can have fun is to be the best and if they can't be the best then they don't have fun and want no part of it.

Feeding all of this is the fact that racing is an engineering game which takes dedication, brains, resources and time to become proficient with but those who have better mastered the art can be all to willing to tell people that it is just about driving. BTW, one of the things that I love about the oval gang is that you all are more truthful and note the utter importance of chassis setup which also includes track reading.

Racing also takes some driving talent which can be further developed and refined through practice and coaching but that takes time, something that the younger generations are not too keen on. This all creates a scenario that puts even the best at their racing craft into a situation where they tend to loose (over their career) more races than they win...and that just doesn't sit well with today's generation's. They want to win, win, win!

So RC is faced with these two general issues of generational appeal, and appropriate cost and difficulty matrix's.

We have to try and better level the playing fields and reduce costs, and we definitely need to find a way to keep our introductory level classes alive and equal (something that RC has long struggled with doing). In order to address these issues that fall under the second category of appropriate cost and difficulty the RC industry must first realize that much of the increased cost (tire truers, extra tire compounds, digital servos, more durable and better performing ESC's, specialized tools, etc.) exist in order to get the car to be more stable, consistent, and easy to drive. When the cars are easier to drive, and more consistent then people can RACE which is where the FUN is for most people! The best way to deal with this issue is to slow the cars down in the lower classes and have a more regimented graduation in speed through the levels. It also wouldn't hurt if we decreased the number of classes so that each class had more people in it, thereby enriching the experience and meaning of making a "B" main, let alone the "A".

An example of this can be seen in some reviews that I read for a small "mini-z" type setup that Toys R Us was selling that came with it own little track for them to race on. The vast majority of the poor reviews came from parents who bought the set for an inappropriate age (6 was an average age) who complained about the cars being too fast and the track being too fragile. Guess where most of the good reviews came from? Most of the good reviews came from adults and older children who loved the speed and responsiveness of the cars and could handle them...they got to RACE!

In short, when the speed and complexity is too great for the market then they will think a great product is a dud because it is beyond them and when you combine that with our young generations' attitudes you are guaranteed fewer racers. Are we doing this with RC? I think so.

Secondarily racing by it's nature stresses constant advancement and that equals increased costs. We must be far more forward thinking in how we set up our rules by giving them "phases" based upon desired speed levels. In doing so as energy sources increase the motor's power both the motor and energy capacities can be retarded to maintain that racing levels' appropriate speed and complexity, thereby maintaining and also encouraging people to stay in the hobby/sport based upon their capabilities (time, money talent, knowledge, experience, equipment).

Oh well, enough hypothesis, what does everyone think?

My eyes are bleeding.

:drunk: :freak: :confused: ...okay!

What he said.

what DID he say???!?

darnold, you gotta keep it short for these oval guys :jest:

I'm thinking he said we should just be happy to live in the US of A.

We should enjoy our little toy cars and help promote the newbies out there. And not overwhelm them with all the nit-pickin' technology that some [many] of us put into these things. Let them have fun with the hobby for a while. Then ruin it with technology, if they stick around that long.


Oh, and something about a hypotenous. whatever.

I think he had more to say... the LAST paragraph [of 13] started with "Secondarily"!!

THAT's IT!!!:thumbsup: Yep, what you all said...:thumbsup::):):)